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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Main:
Cirth Translation

grymhammer
Registered User

Oct 9, 12:19pm

Post #1 of 8 (3251 views)
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Cirth Translation Can't Post

Greetings,
I stumbled across this forum, and I'm posting in hopes that someone may be a general expert on Cirth. Although my first plan was Angerthas Moria, I could be convinced to use another version with a solid argument. I'd like to try and translate my kids names: Travis, Wyatt and Rhianna.

I was told elsewhere translation is done phonetically, more than by physical spelling. Any truth to this that you know?

For example, here is the spelling and /phonetic/ of each name.

Travis /ˈtrævɪs/

Wyatt /ˈwaɪət/

Rhianna /reɪ ˈænə/

It clearly changes the runes.

Thanks for any advice!


dernwyn
Forum Admin / Moderator


Oct 9, 10:47pm

Post #2 of 8 (3183 views)
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Tolkien did use phonetic spelling [In reply to] Can't Post

If you look at the title pages for the LotR books, you'll see that for "of" he used the Cirth for "ov".

Unfortunately I can't see the phonetic spellings, as my computer is giving me sets of ampersands, hashmarks, and numbers interspersed with the letters!

But I've typed out the names using my Angerthas font, which has differences from the Angerthas Moria. For each name, the first is the literal transliteration, the second removes double letters (so Travis stays the same), and the third, for Rhianna, uses an "RH" cirth and "EE" for the "i".

"RH" has what looks like a backwards "K" in Angerthas, but that cirth is "ZH" in Angerthas Moria, which has no "RH" cirth. I sort of like the "RH" cirth.

By the way, welcome to TORn! Cool





~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"I desired dragons with a profound desire"


grymhammer
Registered User

Oct 9, 11:07pm

Post #3 of 8 (3179 views)
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Screenshot [In reply to] Can't Post

Hum, I'm sorry I did not notice it changed what I put for their names.

I took a screenshot and uploaded it so you can at least see the phonetic spelling as determined by IPA

https://www.screencast.com/t/gZZbEF9j

Hopefully this works. Thank you!


(This post was edited by Ataahua on Oct 10, 12:19am)


dernwyn
Forum Admin / Moderator


Oct 10, 1:38am

Post #4 of 8 (3165 views)
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It's probably quite okay [In reply to] Can't Post

on your end - it's just that some browsers/systems can copy it as is, others can't figure out some symbols. We have that problem at times when stories from our main page are posted on the message boards: strange letters creep into them!

Here's another attempt, using the phonetic (thank you!), correcting Rhianna into its proper pronunciation (I've included both the "R" and the "RH" versions):




~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"I desired dragons with a profound desire"


grymhammer
Registered User

Oct 10, 12:37pm

Post #5 of 8 (3120 views)
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Some questions [In reply to] Can't Post

So here is where I look like a fool and ask stupid questions.

When you say Angerthas, which specific version is this? Is it Erebor? I have a list of wiki pages that I have been looking at, trying to find all the runes and what not to better understand. For my sake I am using this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cirth

What is the reason to remove double letters, like 'nn' 'tt'? I see a lot of posts that Tolkien left very little in the way of "rules" for Dwarven runes. Is this a preference? I assume if your using runes to do a phonetic spelling, then nn and n all sound the same and it makes sense. If that's the case, see my next question...

I know little about phonetic spelling, so I really struggle looking at the info and understanding it. When I inquired about phonetic "lettering". When you spell Travis, that "appears" (to me) to be a direct translation of the letters, not the phonetic sound. So now I'm confused on phonetic vs literal translation. Travis has a short a, (a with umlaut?) So I use Google and find this: https://www.screencast.com/t/4xXA9JCVw4xG

That says to me, look at the runes and find the ae. In Angerthas Moria, Daeron and Erebor it appears to be No 52. So for me, when I tried to translate in Moria, I ended up with 8,12,52,4,31,54 I think (a guess) your using Erebor? So for that I get 8,12,52,4,31,(34|35) Anyway, and thus my confusion.

In order to say my daughters name correctly (similar to Fleetwood Mac song) using this site: https://tophonetics.com/, you need to spell it as 'Re anna', this causes the proper break, and vowel pronunciation. That produced the phonetic spelling I ended up with here: https://www.screencast.com/t/gZZbEF9j
So, back to the question above, if I were phonetically spelling it, I came up with 12,46,31 52,22,55 Not sure how to signify a break between 31 and 52.
If you're head hurts now, sorry.





(This post was edited by grymhammer on Oct 10, 12:39pm)


dernwyn
Forum Admin / Moderator


Oct 11, 2:29am

Post #6 of 8 (3050 views)
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I have two fonts for Angerthas [In reply to] Can't Post

One is called simply Angerthas, the other Angerthas Moria. The former has more cirth, for example, shift-R gives me the RH cirth (ZH in Angerthas Moria), but in the latter it doesn't change the cirth.

The double letters would be necessary only if both were actually pronounced. Phonetic spelling can vary widely - for example, it looked like your phonetic spelling of Rhianna was "ray-ah-neh", but if it has the song title pronunciation, then it's "ree-ah-nah". It's probably best to define each syllable by common pronunciation, rather than phonetic symbols!

The tables I use are from the Appendices, and I simply go by how it sounds.

The cirth you have there: 52 looks more like German o-umlaut and not ae, so just use 48, the "short" a. 31 is actually "L", not "i". I used 34 for the "s", but that's because I located 54 on my keyboard only a few moments ago (it was shift-left bracket)!

Of course, there's no reason to not do a literal transliteration, either!


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"I desired dragons with a profound desire"


grymhammer
Registered User

Oct 11, 12:12pm

Post #7 of 8 (3003 views)
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OK [In reply to] Can't Post

OK, I wasn't sure, which is why I asked.
Is this font you have online somewhere, or is it accessible? I'd like to try doings these in Photoshop.Lol, see I thought it as an i, this is exactly why I am posting!
OK, maybe this is the best "It's probably best to define each syllable by common pronunciation, rather than phonetic symbols!"


dernwyn
Forum Admin / Moderator


Oct 11, 4:36pm

Post #8 of 8 (2993 views)
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I downloaded those fonts [In reply to] Can't Post

a few years ago, can't recall from where!

This looks like the site where I found the Angerthas: https://www.dafont.com/angerthas.font.

And this Angerthas Moria looks like an updated version of mine: https://www.dafont.com/angerthas-moria.font

I type up things in Word, then scan it into a JPG file, which I can edit and resize, then upload and post here via the Inline function (see Get Markup Help). Smile


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"I desired dragons with a profound desire"

 
 

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