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2ndBreffest
Lorien
Sep 21 2018, 12:29pm
Post #1 of 34
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Hobbit book future editions with movie elements?
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Peter Jackson's delightful take on the book included many new characters and scenarios and dialogue which in many many ways improved the story I know many here would agree. I was just thinking wouldn't it be nice to see future editons of the book be reworked to include some of these changes? The barrell scene for example was sooo boring in the book, but in the movie it was amazing! What do you think?
(This post was edited by 2ndBreffest on Sep 21 2018, 12:31pm)
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Sep 21 2018, 2:24pm
Post #2 of 34
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By the Valar, no. The book is the book and the films are the films. Let never the twain should meet. Tolkien himself abandoned a massive revision of The Hobbit because it would have changed the book so much as to make it a different story altogether.
"For a brief time I was here; and for a brief time I mattered." - Harlan Ellison
(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Sep 21 2018, 2:25pm)
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2ndBreffest
Lorien
Sep 21 2018, 2:56pm
Post #3 of 34
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what about that incredible scene where the white orc guy literally flies up through the ice and 12 feet into the air! I'm sure that scene could be written in Tolkein style language enough so the purists won't be too upset. Maybe the 'anything down the trousers" line could be left out, but the awesome dragon slaying seige ballista weapon would have to stay...its too awesome not to!
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skyofcoffeebeans
Rohan
Sep 21 2018, 3:11pm
Post #4 of 34
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It exists, and you can go read it, and we can lock this godforsaken thread. Buy them here:
https://www.amazon.com/Hobbit-Unexpected-Journey-Movie-Storybook-ebook/dp/B0089YAB1W/ref=sr_1_2?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1537542606&sr=1-2&keywords=Hobbit+storybook
https://www.amazon.com/Hobbit-Desolation-Smaug-Movie-Storybook-ebook/dp/B00I7JFC7M/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1537542606&sr=1-1&keywords=Hobbit+storybook
https://www.amazon.com/Hobbit-Battle-Armies-Movie-Storybook/dp/0544422880/ref=sr_1_3?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1537542606&sr=1-3&keywords=Hobbit+storybook
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2ndBreffest
Lorien
Sep 21 2018, 6:31pm
Post #5 of 34
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if only this existed back when I was assigned to read The Hobbit for summer reading! Oh well, at least the future generations will have this option!
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Chen G.
Gondor
Sep 21 2018, 8:28pm
Post #7 of 34
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Is that the ONLY reason, though?
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Tolkien himself abandoned a massive revision of The Hobbit because it would have changed the book so much as to make it a different story altogether. 
I’m not sure that reason alone explains it. I think Tolkien would have come through with his revised The Hobbit - had he not been Tolkien. The writer had the habit of hopping between works and never quite finishing.
His only finished works are those he was being urged to finish by his publishers.
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Sep 21 2018, 9:18pm
Post #8 of 34
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The reasons behind Tolkien's abandonment of his 1960 revision are pretty well documented. Here is just one story about it. I've read the existing text of it, as far as it goes.
"For a brief time I was here; and for a brief time I mattered." - Harlan Ellison
(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Sep 21 2018, 9:19pm)
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2ndBreffest
Lorien
Sep 21 2018, 9:53pm
Post #9 of 34
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I'm really glad Peter Jackson gave him a second chance because he is really cool and Thorin needed a bad guy to fight at the end. I know I'm not alone here in getting real excited when Bard whipped up that improvised dragon killing device! I was standing on my seat in the theater at that part! It was a hightlight for sure!!
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Sep 22 2018, 12:26am
Post #10 of 34
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While you were standing on your seat, I was rolling my eyes thinking, "That contraption would never work!" And the only reason it did work is because filmmakers cheat.
Don't get me wrong, there was much that I did like about the Hobbit movies. But many other things irritated me or worse.
"For a brief time I was here; and for a brief time I mattered." - Harlan Ellison
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Chen G.
Gondor
Sep 22 2018, 9:07am
Post #11 of 34
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To be fair, filmmakers cheat all the time
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Filmmaking isn't about each individual beat in the work: its about the overall impression.
Even Christopher Nolan's notoriously grounded Batman films have contrivances, especially when it comes to how the characters endure certain perils. The Empire Strikes Back, a movie we discussed previously and another moderately-grounded take on a fantasy, has an inexplicable escape at the end, etcetra; The Lord of the Rings has a few of those. In Apocalypto, the hero takes an arrow to the stomach and keeps running, and later takes one to the shoulder, to little consequence.
The point is, if those contrivances or death-defying moments are brief enough and spread-out wide enough (which, thanks to the extended running-time of The Hobbit, I'd say they are) they can be more than excused.
Would I stage Smaug demise like that? No. Do I mind it that much? Also no.
(This post was edited by Chen G. on Sep 22 2018, 9:09am)
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Paulo Gabriel
Lorien
Sep 22 2018, 12:37pm
Post #12 of 34
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No offense, but Otaku-sempai is somewhat nitpicking.
(This post was edited by Paulo Gabriel on Sep 22 2018, 12:38pm)
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Sep 22 2018, 1:24pm
Post #13 of 34
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I can often overlook those cheats when they are pulled off with enough skill and panache. I resent them when they make me feel like the director is disrespecting the intelligence of the audience, treating us like idiots. I don't accept that in a novelist and don't see why a director should get a pass for the same sin.
I am also understanding if a change is made out of necessity, such as the Master of Lake-town perishing during Smaug's attack because Stephen Fry would be unavailable for the extensive shoots needed for The Battle of the Five Armies. Things happen.
"For a brief time I was here; and for a brief time I mattered." - Harlan Ellison
(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Sep 22 2018, 1:34pm)
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Sep 22 2018, 1:28pm
Post #14 of 34
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No offense, but Otaku-sempai is somewhat nitpicking.
Yes, I am. I freely admit it. I don't like storytellers treating me as if I'm stupid, regardless of whether it is in a book, a film or some other medium.
"For a brief time I was here; and for a brief time I mattered." - Harlan Ellison
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2ndBreffest
Lorien
Sep 22 2018, 5:41pm
Post #15 of 34
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I agree, but cheating was necessary here
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since the book is totally boring, the great Peter Jackson took the initiative to throw it out almost completely and practically rewrite the entire story to make it palatable to todays movie going audiences! Sure, audiences back in Tolkien's day might have thought Peter Jackson's alterations were unrealistic and idiotic, but people today like that sort of thing. So basically, what I'm saying is that while a small number of people will likely take offense to Peter Jackson's "dumbing down" of the narrative and resent being spoken down to, so to speak, the wider audience will not even realize what is going on.
(This post was edited by 2ndBreffest on Sep 22 2018, 5:52pm)
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Sep 22 2018, 6:43pm
Post #16 of 34
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Book-firster, though I do understand how adaptations work.
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I'll grant you that even Tolkien himself regretted that The Hobbit was so 'twee' in places, though he decided that a full rewrite would do more harm than good.
since the book is totally boring, the great Peter Jackson took the initiative to throw it out almost completely and practically rewrite the entire story to make it palatable to todays movie going audiences! Sure, audiences back in Tolkien's day might have thought Peter Jackson's alterations were unrealistic and idiotic, but people today like that sort of thing. So basically, what I'm saying is that while a small number of people will likely take offense to Peter Jackson's "dumbing down" of the narrative and resent being spoken down to, so to speak, the wider audience will not even realize what is going on.
I'm not quite sure where I would fall on your scale since The Hobbit was published a year before either of my parents were born, and Tolkien passed away when I was barely in my teens. I did manage to read the book before the animated tv special was made; I discovered The Lord of the Rings in junior high school, before either Ralph Bakshi's movie or the Return of the King animated special came out.
So, any thoughts on Amazon's upcoming Middle-earth series? I still suspect that the first season will focus on Aragorn, but subsequent seasons might tell other stories of the Third (and maybe Second) Age.
"For a brief time I was here; and for a brief time I mattered." - Harlan Ellison
(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Sep 22 2018, 6:52pm)
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2ndBreffest
Lorien
Sep 22 2018, 7:54pm
Post #17 of 34
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I don't really think The Hobbit book is boring at all, quite the contrary! As far as the Amazon series goes, I think your guess is a good one. I doubt fans of the literature will be their main concern, rather they are going to keep it as close to the movies of Peter Jackson as possible with or without his involvement. So that being said, I expect they will stick to the characters movie fans will be familiar with, or at the very least characters that are connected to known characters or were at least mentioned at some point. It will look like the Middle-earth of Peter Jackson, and feature the same modernized language and simplified dialogue. Since there really isn't that much for them to work with as far as written material goes, they will have to make up a bunch of stuff and it will have a very fan-fictiony feel to it and probably come across to most as a GoT rip-off. I think the most that can be hoped for is a "good" GoT rip-off, and not much else. To Tolkien fans who are hoping for something more, I wouldn't get too excited.
(This post was edited by 2ndBreffest on Sep 22 2018, 7:57pm)
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Chen G.
Gondor
Sep 22 2018, 9:22pm
Post #18 of 34
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This series is the genuine article: the original. Both in terms of source material (a major influence on Game of Thrones) and in terms of bringing it to the big screen: without the precedent of The Lord of the Rings, Game of Thrones wouldn't have made the splash that it did.
In the very recent season of Game of Thrones, they had the most obvious ripoff of all times with of the Black Arrow from The Desolation of Smaug.
(This post was edited by Chen G. on Sep 22 2018, 9:24pm)
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2ndBreffest
Lorien
Sep 22 2018, 10:02pm
Post #19 of 34
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What I meant is that to the casual viewer with no prior interest in the works of Tolkien previous to the movies of Peter Jackson, the Amazon series will likely come across this way. It will almost certainly lack the richness of language and dialogue of Tolkien's work and will more closely resemble that of the GoT television series which will guarantee comparisons between the two.
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Paulo Gabriel
Lorien
Sep 23 2018, 12:32pm
Post #20 of 34
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Is that no one complains (or almost no one does) when the same things were done in the Lord of The Rings movies, including the obvious 'dumbing down' of the story.
(This post was edited by Paulo Gabriel on Sep 23 2018, 12:33pm)
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Mari D.
Rivendell
Sep 23 2018, 12:41pm
Post #21 of 34
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I would both like and not like it ;-)
-> I would not like it because I think respect for an author's work and skill commands not to alter a novel, and not to too quickly assume that you can match the quality
-> I would like it because I would find it interesting as far as the "literary experiment" aspect is concerned ;-)
Very interesting that further down the thread you say that the barrel scene is so boring in the book.This is especially why I liked it, the element of escaping in wine barrels was original to me, and the quiet, secretive ride down the river gave it its special atmosphere that I liked.
Funny that also, you find it boring how Bard slew the dragon; I especially liked that scene in the books because to let a character who has just been introduced do the awaited great deed, I found refreshingly unconventional.
But all that is not to say I don't accept you have different views on it ... thanks for sharing your thoughts!
(This post was edited by Mari D. on Sep 23 2018, 12:42pm)
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Mari D.
Rivendell
Sep 23 2018, 12:43pm
Post #22 of 34
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Sep 23 2018, 7:21pm
Post #23 of 34
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Is that no one complains (or almost no one does) when the same things were done in the Lord of The Rings movies, including the obvious 'dumbing down' of the story.
That might be because Jackson's LotR movies work better purely as adaptations and don't add nearly as much new material. But I'm only guessing.
"For a brief time I was here; and for a brief time I mattered." - Harlan Ellison
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Ataahua
Forum Admin
/ Moderator
Sep 23 2018, 8:13pm
Post #24 of 34
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on which PJ/Boyens/Walsh-created scenes in LOTR were the most favoured and soon realised that there's a lot more in those movies than I had realised. I think the new material in LOTR, for the most part, sit more naturally within Tolkien's story than the new material did in The Hobbit films.
After all, in book-FOTR Frodo didn't fall down and lose the Ring on Caradhras, prompting Boromir to pick it up and start to lose himself to the Ring's siren call with Aragorn a twitch away from *making* him give back the Ring, but I'll happily debate that this scene beautifully deepens the already existing tensions within the Fellowship.
I can't think of a similar scene in The Hobbit movies. Maybe, perhaps, the acorn discussion between Bilbo and Thorin?
Celebrimbor: "Pretty rings..."
Dwarves: "Pretty rings..."
Men: "Pretty rings..."
Sauron: "Mine's better."
"Ah, how ironic, the addictive qualities of Sauron’s master weapon led to its own destruction. Which just goes to show, kids - if you want two small and noble souls to succeed on a mission of dire importance... send an evil-minded beggar with them too." - Gandalf's Diaries, final par, by Ufthak.
Ataahua's stories
(This post was edited by Ataahua on Sep 24 2018, 3:23am)
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Paulo Gabriel
Lorien
Sep 24 2018, 4:42am
Post #25 of 34
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because people don't really pay attention to these movies -- either LOTR or Hobbit. 
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