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Victariongreyjoy
Lorien
Aug 29 2018, 9:31pm
Post #1 of 12
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The dunedains after the fall of Arnor.
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How many were there after Arnor's fall and Angmar's destruction? 1000 or less? Couldn't the rest gathered to a safe place and build a fortified small garrison\town so they can repopulate?
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CuriousG
Half-elven
Aug 29 2018, 9:47pm
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It seems like the Arnor Dunedain always had a fertility problem
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so they were never numerous even in the best of times. I do agree that it seems that, post-Angmar, they could have all gathered together rather than live scattered across the 3 sub-kingdoms, since there’s strength in numbers.
But it seems more of an existential issue with them, that when they lost the kingship, they lost all their mojo and ambition, including any design on building up their numbers. That paltry band that Halbarad led to help Aragorn was pathetically small.
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squire
Half-elven
Aug 29 2018, 10:02pm
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It's one of those holes in the Third Age saga. The romance of the one True King still surviving in an unbroken bloodline after a thousand years of 'exile' or 'wilderness' is romantic enough to ward off any questions about how such things actually work!
Fans have long speculated that there must have been a settlement somewhere to act as the Dunedain's base for child-rearing, record-keeping, and sourcing military supplies. In 2011 ace Tolkien fan and "Middle-earth Studies" specialist Michael Martinez posted this interesting note on the subject:
...in January 2000 Tolkien researcher and linguist David Salo shared the following comment:
There is a short but hardly legible note which Tolkien wrote for insertion into the story of Aragorn and Arwen (and which was not in the event used); it includes information about the location of the Dunedain. Because of the difficulty of the note, the information is not entirely clear, but it suggests that the Dunedain lived in woodlands between the Mitheithel and Bruinen. Source: microfilms at Marquette University, Series 3, Box 9, Folder 3.
Since then this "Angle" (land where two rivers come together) has become the semi-official answer as to where the Dunedain settlement was. Make of it what you will.
The question of population remains open for all of Middle-earth. Barring famine, war, or natural disaster, one would expect the Men of the West to have substantially increased their population over a thousand years - but that's true of the Hobbits of the Shire as well. As it turns out, Tolkien's worlds are typically highly infertile, in order for the land to be magically vacant and adventuresome over epically long periods of world history.
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Aug 30 2018, 12:41am
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One large settlement of Dúnedain might have been seen as too vulnerable even after the fall of Angmar. It seems most likely to me that the survivors of Arthedain maintained several semi-permanent settlements within the Angle, close enough to Rivendell to be able to call upon the aid of the High Elves if needed. I have wondered if some of the Dúnedain might have maintained such settlements in the vicinity of the Hills of Evendim and Lake Nenuial near the old capital of Arnor (though there is little to no evidence of such villages).
"For a brief time I was here; and for a brief time I mattered." - Harlan Ellison
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Aug 30 2018, 1:00am
Post #6 of 12
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Let me change that to "no evidence".
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I was engaging in a great deal of speculation as the Dúnedain might not have wanted to become quite that scattered. Regarding your last comment though, wouldn't the Angle also be considered to be a part of the general region known as "the North"? But I was also taking into consideration that Círdan in the Grey Havens was also supposes to have been a friend to the Dúnedain.
"For a brief time I was here; and for a brief time I mattered." - Harlan Ellison
(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Aug 30 2018, 1:04am)
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squire
Half-elven
Aug 30 2018, 1:13am
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I should have been more clear. "North", capitalized, is as you say the entire Eriador region.
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What I meant were the provinces to the north of the Great Road, i.e. up towards Lake Evendim, etc. which you speculated might have other settlements of Dunedain, near their former capital city.
I do agree that logically such a pattern of settlement "makes sense". But as you acknowledged, our idea of logic is just our idea. If Tolkien didn't write anything on the subject, we're left with the rueful knowledge that any number of "logical" suppositions of how The Lord of the Rings ought to have been arranged and ordered are contradicted by how Tolkien actually wrote it!
squire online:
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Victariongreyjoy
Lorien
Aug 31 2018, 1:23am
Post #8 of 12
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Couldn't they just go and establish a small town garrison near the havens? Surely Gondor, Dol Amroth and elven allies could assist them and protect them from remnants of Angmar.
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Aug 31 2018, 1:41am
Post #9 of 12
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Couldn't they just go and establish a small town garrison near the havens? Surely Gondor, Dol Amroth and elven allies could assist them and protect them from remnants of Angmar.
That is along the lines of my own thinking, but Tolkien gives us no reason to think this was the case. Also, the Dúnedain were trying to keep their continued survival (especially the survival of the line of Isildur) something of a secret. They also did not want to have to rely on the good will of Gondor. That's not to say that they didn't or couldn't have had support from Círdan in the Grey Havens. It might well be that it would not have been unusual to find Rangers taking their ease in Mithlond or wandering in Harlindon or Forlindon.
"For a brief time I was here; and for a brief time I mattered." - Harlan Ellison
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squire
Half-elven
Aug 31 2018, 3:01am
Post #10 of 12
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Sure they could have done that
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As Otaku comments, it makes as much sense as any other fan-fiction theory spun by thoughtful readers to fill in a gap that Tolkien did not address. But 'could have', 'should have' and 'might have' are not the same as 'Tolkien wrote, in _______, chapter ___, that .... "
The good Prof expressed more than once that it was a feature, not a flaw, that he had not written out all of Middle-earth's back story; he felt it gave the history that is recorded more authenticity and flavor. He also expressed more than once that he was the first to try to write out all of Middle-earth's back story, whenever he had the time and energy to do so!
squire online:
RR Discussions: The Valaquenta, A Shortcut to Mushrooms, and Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit
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Archive: All the TORn Reading Room Book Discussions (including the 1st BotR Discussion!) and Footerama: "Tolkien would have LOVED it!"
Dr. Squire introduces the J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia: A Reader's Diary
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Victariongreyjoy
Lorien
Sep 9 2018, 6:38pm
Post #11 of 12
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A Edoras size post Arnor city near Grey Havens?
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If instead of spreading and going into hiding, the remnants of Arnor with the protection of the elves and a small batallion of Gondor's knight, they rebuild a new town that grows into a city in the late third age, could this reach the size of Edoras and perhaps help the war against Mordor and Isengard?
(This post was edited by Victariongreyjoy on Sep 9 2018, 6:42pm)
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Sep 10 2018, 1:25am
Post #12 of 12
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A city or large town is too easily targeted. And under the Stewards, Gondor is not reliable enough as an ally. Anyway, the Rangers of the North do their part in the War of the Ring with the contribution of the Grey Company.
"For a brief time I was here; and for a brief time I mattered." - Harlan Ellison
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