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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Middle-earth TV Series Discussion:
JD Payne and Patrick McKay showrunning
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Aug 18, 7:29pm

Post #51 of 59 (585 views)
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Minas Tirith as Camelot [In reply to] Can't Post

Perhaps, but Camelot in decline--at least while Minas Tirith is under the rule of Denethor. Knights are abandoning their highest ideals and the kingdom is in disarray. We should see signs of decadence and decay.

"For a brief time I was here; and for a brief time I mattered." - Harlan Ellison


Eruonen
Valinor


Aug 18, 11:17pm

Post #52 of 59 (578 views)
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You might suggest some debauchery in the lower circle of Minas Tirith where the [In reply to] Can't Post

more rough taverns and poor may live due to the slack governance of Denethor. But, overt sexuality just does not fit in any production that aims to keep the integrity of Tolkien's world intact. I doubt very much that the Tolkien Estate would permit such stuff if they have the legal right to veto.

IF the story goes back to earlier times with invasions you certainly could hint at rough treatment of women etc. But again, it would be suggested not shown in the raw.


(This post was edited by Eruonen on Aug 18, 11:19pm)


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Aug 19, 2:41am

Post #53 of 59 (557 views)
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And I am not suggesting any display of explicit sex. [In reply to] Can't Post

The show can suggest such events without showing the details. That could even be an improvement because the writers are forced to be inventive.

"For a brief time I was here; and for a brief time I mattered." - Harlan Ellison


InTheChair
Lorien

Aug 19, 8:24am

Post #54 of 59 (526 views)
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The question need not revolve around Minas Tirith however. [In reply to] Can't Post

Aragorns travels will take him far and wide. For certain he will visit Pelargir, a port or haven, with all the traffic of diverse humanity that this brings. It would be a hard task for the creators of this show not to fall back to some of the tropes used to convey such environments. Wouldn't be surprised if we see a few backdrops of affected men and somewhat challenging ladies in bold conversation in doorways. That kind of stuff.


Eruonen
Valinor


Aug 19, 2:35pm

Post #55 of 59 (510 views)
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I agree, since we are dealing with humans, even if in a different age, human nature has not [In reply to] Can't Post

really changed at all. Even the "high" Numenoreans fell under Sauron and had barbarous practices - human sacrifice etc.


(This post was edited by Eruonen on Aug 19, 2:38pm)


Mari D.
The Shire


Aug 19, 7:28pm

Post #56 of 59 (488 views)
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Realistic in terms of Middle-earth ... between high moral standards and moral depravity? [In reply to] Can't Post

I like how people are trying to define what "realistic" is in terms of Middle-earth ... interesting the comparisons with the Middle Ages, Rome etc.
Good point about how Aragorn on his travels might not always be among the high and noble, or in the most Shire-like regions, and might encounter things that are not so morally nice.

My question is then: How would he react to that? How would Aragorn (in character) react to a drug den, people inviting him to gamble, get drunk?
I think that might be difficult to write well, to not fall into one of the two pitfalls:
A) Hero is tempted repeatedly, in the end falls for temptation, hero lowers his moral standards. I wouldn't like that 1) because for many of Tolkien's characters, that would feel Out of Character because of their high moral standards. 2) I strongly dislike it when movies suggest that wrong behaviour is actually okay and so "of course" the hero will fall for it in the end. Why? Why shouldn't he overcome (or flee the situation)?
B) Hero is a super-saint and condescendingly looks down on "sinners", with whom he will not mingle, and temptation doesn't even touch him

How do you think a young Aragorn would react to such situations? Would it be possible to write such scenes well, with him keeping his integrity, but still not being cliché super saint?Maybe there's even some fanfictions that explore that theme?
Or in other words: How do really noble (not condescendingly perfect) people deal with such situations?


(This post was edited by Mari D. on Aug 19, 7:32pm)


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Aug 20, 1:08am

Post #57 of 59 (449 views)
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Aragorn Among the People [In reply to] Can't Post

I wouldn't say that all of your examples are equal to each other. Aragorn understands the pleasures of a good smoke, but he would probably be repulsed and disgusted by a true drug den, though as he is still young it might take a little time for him to reach a full understanding of it.

I can easily see 'Thorongil' taking part in a friendly wager among soldiers, whether it's for a horse race or in a game of dice. He would probably have the self-discipline to keep from getting carried away, but he might observe a companion getting in too deep--maybe to a moneylender.

Aragorn has certainly had his share of hardy drink, especially when an alcoholic beverage is safer than what locally passes for plain water. As a youth he should be allowed a few mistakes such as drinking to excess so he can learn from them. And I'm sure he would become exposed to the misfortune of others who have ruined their own lives through chronic drunkenness.

It seems to me that Aragorn has to learn to understand the foibles of others and to recognize the potential for those flaws in himself so he can guard against them. "For he went in many guises, and won renown under many names. He rode in the host of the Rohirrim, and fought for the Lord of Gondor by land and by sea; and then in the hour of victory he passed out of the knowledge of the Men of the West, and went alone far into the East and deep into the South, exploring the hearts of Men, both evil and good, and uncovering the plots and devices of the servants of Sauron" (from "The Tale of Aragorn and Arwen").

"For a brief time I was here; and for a brief time I mattered." - Harlan Ellison


Eruonen
Valinor


Aug 20, 1:37am

Post #58 of 59 (442 views)
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Your last bit from the Tale of Aragorn and Arwen really says it all. [In reply to] Can't Post

He journeyed, he saw the full spectrum of human behavior - good and evil - and learned. I don't think Aragorn would adopt a condescending attitude. Nobility, suffering servant, aid to the oppressed etc. yes.


Mari D.
The Shire


Aug 20, 6:47pm

Post #59 of 59 (348 views)
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Well stated [In reply to] Can't Post

 
In Reply To
I wouldn't say that all of your examples are equal to each other.


A very polite way of saying I could have differentiated more :-) Thanks. True. I wrote the first few things that came to mind, more interested in the principles than in the specific examples. But your examples show quite well the range of possibilities. Some things, he might enjoy in moderation, others reject, maybe after seeing others succumb to them, or learning from his own mistakes. The quote is quite fitting, as well. :-)

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