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What if it were you?
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Aug 11, 12:16am

Post #26 of 65 (2060 views)
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Close enough it would seem. [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
The Druadan Forest is quite far within the bounds of Gondor. If the Rohirrim under Thengel had prejudices against this particular group of Wild Men, it's not made clear in the text.


I cite the words of Ghân-buri-Ghân to King Théoden:

Quote
'Dead men are not friends to living men, and give them no gifts,' said the Wild Man. 'But if you live after the Darkness. then leave Wild Men alone in the woods and do not hunt them like beasts any more. Ghân-buri-Ghân will not lead you into trap. He will go himself with father of Horse-men, and if he leads you wrong, you will kill him.'


The Rohirrim treated the Woses as beasts little better than Orcs. If that doesn't display a prejudice than I don't know what does. If the Men of Gondor similarly hunted the Woses, the text does not make it explicit. It is true that Aragorn as King Elessar acted to honor the pledge made by Théoden:


Quote
Without haste and at peace they passed into Anórien, and they came to the Grey Wood under Amon Dîn; and there they heard a sound as of drums beating in the hills, though no living thing could be seen. Then Aragorn let the trumpets be blown; and heralds cried:

'Behold the King Elessar is come! The Forest of Drúadan he gives to Ghân-buri-Ghân and to his folk, to be their own for ever; and hereafter let no man enter it without their leave!'

Then the drums rolled loudly, and were silent.


"For a brief time I was here; and for a brief time I mattered." - Harlan Ellison

(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Aug 11, 12:19am)


squire
Half-elven


Aug 11, 12:29am

Post #27 of 65 (2050 views)
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Well, it's the question of the map [In reply to] Can't Post

Why would the Rohirrim be hunting Woses deep within the boundaries of Anorien?

We had a discussion of this a while ago in which I argued this same point. There were some good rebuttals to my reasoning. Ultimately I would argue that Tolkien simply got mixed up here. Yes, the text seems to imply that Ghan knows that it is the Rohirrim who have been victimizing his people. On the other hand, as I commented last time, "in general I should have thought it would be remarkably difficult to hunt a Drug and remarkably easy to be hunted by a Drug". And then there's the map: this exchange takes place in Gondor, not Rohan, a day's ride from Minas Tirith. The Rohirrim are in a foreign land at this point, not one of their hunting preserves.



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Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Aug 11, 12:45am

Post #28 of 65 (2047 views)
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Granted, the Druadan Forest is some distance from Rohan proper. [In reply to] Can't Post

Yes, the Druadan Forest is on the eastern end of Anórien, perhaps 140 miles from the border of Rohan. It might be that Tolkien had it confused with the Firien Wood which bordered the Eastfold and Fenmarch. Perhaps by the time of the War of the Ring few folk of Gondor still inhabited Anórien and the Rohirrim had begun to hunt there.

"For a brief time I was here; and for a brief time I mattered." - Harlan Ellison

(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Aug 11, 12:47am)


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Aug 11, 1:59am

Post #29 of 65 (2033 views)
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Woses outside of the forest? [In reply to] Can't Post

Might it be that Drúedain would often leave the Druadan Forest to hunt and forage in the foothills between it and the Firien Wood? Such Woses might be encountered by Riders of Rohan who have crossed into Anórien. It might be such incidents that were referred to by Ghân-buri-Ghân. Just a thought.

"For a brief time I was here; and for a brief time I mattered." - Harlan Ellison


Dunadan of North Arnor
The Shire

Aug 11, 6:04am

Post #30 of 65 (2017 views)
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Frankly, I would seek the best story-tellers, and hire a Michael Martinez as exec consultant [In reply to] Can't Post

This is clearly going to be fanfic, like it or not. The best that can be hoped for is to tell great stories, in appropriate settings, while not alienating your inherent fan base (always crucial to success).

Star Trek, while currently guilty of the latter indiscretion, began by hiring known Sci-Fi writers to submit their stories, while Gene Roddenberry was the principal arbitrator on how they could best fit into his created universe. And in, what is considered one of the best Trek episodes, Roddenberry altered a Harlan Ellison tale (to Ellison’s never-ending criticism) so that it could fit into his ultimate Story for the greater good, in my, and most fans opinions.

Likewise, hire someone who can incorporate, advise, and guide any great story into a setting true to 3rd Age Middle-earth (between TH & LOTR, as it apparently stands).

I haven’t frequented Martinez’s site in a while, but I know he’s one who could easily say “well that could happen here and then, but not there or after... and that sea-coast could only be this one at that time, and it would have to be Easterlings not Orcs that perpetrate that crime... and Aragorn could only fit into it this way”.

Just my 2-cents... Smile


(This post was edited by Dunadan of North Arnor on Aug 11, 6:13am)


Darkstone
Immortal


Aug 11, 7:16am

Post #31 of 65 (2004 views)
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Well [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
What counts as the casting of a spell?


I'm thinking of Saruman blasting Gandalf with a fireball in ROTK-EE. A bit OTT in my view of Middle-earth, but others' mileage may vary and that's okay.



In Reply To
Gandalf tries to open the Moria door with incantations; does that count?


Gandalf can do things that "passed the skill of Elf or even Dwarf".

'You may make a fire, if you can,’ answered Gandalf. ‘If there are any watchers that can endure this storm, then they can see us, fire or no.’ But though they had brought wood and kindlings by the advice of Boromir, it passed the skill of Elf or even Dwarf to strike a flame that would hold amid the swirling wind or catch in the wet fuel. At last reluctantly Gandalf himself took a hand. Picking up a faggot he held it aloft for a moment, and then with a word of command, naur an edraith ammen! he thrust the end of his staff into the midst of it. At once a great spout of green and blue flame sprang out, and the wood flared and sputtered.
-The Ring Goes South

Note the phrase "word of command" here and elsewhere, which hints that Gandalf's power is not mere spellcraft but more a channeling of Logos, which is an entirely different can of worms.



In Reply To
Or Galadriel's mind-reading?


That's how people communicated before the Elves screwed it up by inventing language. People who grew up using language find it virtually impossible to initiate interchange of thought. So First-Agers, Maiar, and other such old fogies pretty much have a monopoly on it.


So I'd not have any of my primary characters throwing fireballs, using words of command, or communicating via telepathy. As Tolkien said in Letter #155:

Anyway, a difference in the use of 'magic' in this story is that it is not to be come by by 'lore' or spells; but is in an inherent power not possessed or attainable by Men as such.



In Reply To
Agreed, also, about not foreshadowing Saruman's betrayal. It would make the Wise seem stupid. If we are to see Saruman before LOTR, we must be as charmed and reassured by him as the White Council was. We must be made to feel that this guy is our mastermind, the man we'd be lost without.


Exactly!

******************************************
"Mister Frodo, hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good frying pan at your side. I’ve been from one side of this garden to the other, I've seen a lot of strange stuff, but I've never seen anything to make me believe there's one all-powerful Providence controlling everything. There's no Music of the Ainur that controls my destiny. It's all a lot of simple tricks and nonsense."
-LOTR IV: A New Estel




Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Aug 11, 12:30pm

Post #32 of 65 (1969 views)
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Magic and Magical Spells [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Third, magic would be rare. Magic weapons and items would be difficult to obtain. Magical places and beings would be hard to encounter. And the wholesale casting of magical spells would be right out.


But magical spells are cast in Tolkien's legendarium, largely by Gandalf. Yes, powerful magic is rare, but we see many examples of spells and spell-like abilities:
- Gandalf's smoke-rings.
- "The dwarves of yore made mighty spells".
- Gandalf arguably used magic when he fooled the three Trolls by imitating their voices (questionable).
- The Dwarves cast magical spells on the troll-chest they buried.
- Spells must have been wrought into the elvish blades forged in Gondolin.
- The rune-letters on the Map of Thror represent a form of magic.
- Gandalf blasts a number of goblins when the Company of Thorin is captured in the Misty Mountains.
- Gandalf sets pine cones aflame using magic.
- Beorn's ability to transform, while apparently not a spell per se, is a magical ability.
- The feasting Wood-elves used magic against the intruding company.
- The forging of the Rings of Power presumably required the casting of magic.
- Elrond exerts magical control over the Bruinen at the Ford; Gandalf magically creates the images of white horses in the foam.
- The ability of Legolas to commune with trees, grass and even stones is a form of what we would call magic.
- Gandalf blasts the Wargs/Werewolves in Hollin with magical fire.
- The West-gate of Moria was magically sealed.
- Gandalf summoned magical light in Moria.
- The Mirror of Galadriel and the phial she gives Frodo are magical.
- The palantiri are magical devices.

Et cetera.

"For a brief time I was here; and for a brief time I mattered." - Harlan Ellison

(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Aug 11, 12:33pm)


uncle Iorlas
Bree


Aug 21, 4:50pm

Post #33 of 65 (1192 views)
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had a thought [In reply to] Can't Post

Relevant to the barrow-rescue story you've mentioned--there's a danger here of edging into superhero territory, if there's any element of people calling on the Dunedain for help. To leave us where we must be at the outset of the trilogy, the vigilante action of the rangers must be generally unseen and unkown, against dangers that are largely unknown as well. In fact it might well be that in such an incident, the Bree-folk are quick to blame the whole incident on the rangers themselves, and regard them with dark suspicion.


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Aug 21, 6:10pm

Post #34 of 65 (1174 views)
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Issues that can be avoided. [In reply to] Can't Post

Aragorn (with or without Gandalf) could involve himself without being asked; he could even downplay his role in such an affair by leaving any rescued Bree-folk before they enter the town. Of course, Bree-landers being naturally suspicious of outsiders, the Rangers might still be blamed for the incident!

"For a brief time I was here; and for a brief time I mattered." - Harlan Ellison


uncle Iorlas
Bree


Aug 26, 2:00am

Post #35 of 65 (993 views)
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meanwhile in the second age [In reply to] Can't Post

Been meaning for ages to go over a few of my favorite details of the Eregion-centric series we actually pitched, mostly because I still feel very warmly toward it and have regrets; please forgive the indulgence.

In no particular order:

Celebrimbor seems, before Annatar came along, to have favored diadems for juiced-up jewelry: the Elendilmir and the Elessar are both attributed to him at least sometimes. I like to suppose that had he continued down that road, he might have made works equal to the Rings--but that would have been useless to Sauron since they would lack the "back door," as it were, that enabled a One to be made that would subvert and control every ring made by the method Sauron taught.

A relevant text I sent at the time:
{A little afield: the enchanted jewelry C makes right before S diverts him into rings might be a truth stone. Prolly a diadem, since C seems to favor those. The Eye of Celebrimbor (or of Something); when you wear it the world is limned with luminous marginalia that reveal things. Crowns on heads, blazing hearts, hidden fears; icons and runes appear in the air around people. Narvi's hands are radiant.

He shows it to S and says what it is. A split second's hesitation and suddenly gushing with warm praise. Forestalls C right before he puts it on--will you gift this to me, C? For I seek the truth always.

C: Freely!
S: This is indeed greater than all your works gone before! See, how [examples]

Lo, ever you bind greater and greater potency into gold and silver, in these works of your jeweller's hand. But I have discovered a craft by which you might imbue your shining gold with power indeed, outshining all you have wrought before. Nay, even this! And it is this craft I came to show you.

Later, maybe in Orodruin, he destroys the eye.}

[And so on into the first of the minor rings.]

Oh, side note re Annatar: we were very very keen on Jude Law for that role. But how to play him? I was half tempted to make him blue, some creature who wasn't trying to appear normal, but merely another wonder in a world whose cosmology isn't, at least back then, quite nailed down yet. It's weird enough that the Istari manifest as human, if they're then going to be immortal. I didn't think Annatar should be shy about being neither man nor elf.

The relationship between these two must be compelling. I think even Sauron, hardened past all sympathy though he is, must nevertheless find Celebrimbor at least interesting, maybe enjoyably challenging. Sauron must of course lay on the charm to be accepted by Celebrimbor's perpetual artist colony, but if he feels contempt for everyone on a basic level, there is at least nothing to scorn about Celebrimbor's eager skill, or that of the artists he has convened. (And Eregion must be established a while before Annatar appears; Galadriel spends some time there, earlier, and I was actually dreaming of writing a song in Quenya for her to sing.)

From May: {There was a fleeting mention of Galadriel and residing in Eregion, and I hope to learn more, though dates are uncertain. Makes sense, she's a sorcerous artist.

Eregion should be full of gardens, standing stones and solar calendars, stange buildings, exotic banquets: every art is celebrated, and from the king on down that includes elevating the humble, even unto a riverbank hobbit. They are keen to recognize the artistic urge wherever it manifests. Bohemian spirit at work.

Mosaics laid into the roads. Wind instruments cunningly fashioned for the wind itself to blow, fields tilled in one-season effigies seen from far-off hills. Just oddball things, cleverness for delight's own sake.}

There should be many wonders done by this fellowship of artisans before Annatar ever shows up. And mithril, of course, the reason for the kingdom; early days should have a lot of diplomacy toward dwarves, and Celebrimbor's household and personal retinue should be loaded with mithril gear. (All to be stolen by Sauron later, one presumes. Where did it go? Not even the nazgul are ever described as using any. Hm.)

I'd like to see Celebrimbor undergoing some travels both for diplomatic purposes and to spy out and recruit artists, from Tharbad to Fangorn. I liked to imagine a brief scene wherein he goes to ask a question of an ent, duly provisioned for a wait of several days for an answer. Or, we mused, we might meet entwives. (Do entwives have beards?)

It was in those early days I had imagined including some hobbits; you can make a case for some Stoors working their way north through this territory by now, or without much stretching. I had imagined that Celebrimbor, effusive and garrulous, struck up conversation with some riverdwelling woodcarver (in what language? What does it mean when actors speak English onscreen in a second age show? There is no westron yet) and invited him to join a symposium with the other artists, where the hobbit would be received warmly but feel awfully out of place with his meager folk art. But perhaps some elf or other takes a real interest in the form, possibly collaborates on something lightly enchanted, who knows. In any event he'd have to leave the court, maybe out of modesty, before Annatar's appearance; Sauron must never have seen a hobbit. Perhaps someone could reference "that little fellow" in front of him but nothing that could suggest he was of a separate race altogether. I did also imagine, though, that when the early minor rings started to proliferate, Celebrimbor might come round and present one to that hobbit, or some descendant of his.

The minor rings! We were going to have fun exploring what they did; we're never told. A variety of effects without system, I think. A lucky ring, a memory ring, a beauty ring, a tree-climbing ring, who knows. Many different artisans make minor rings as they study Annatar's technique. Enough of a haphazard diversity in nature and magnitude that the advent of the comparatively systematic Great Rings is a distinct shift.

For that matter, we really know quite little about the function of the Great Rings. Of the three we know a smidge, particularly Narya, which seems to be involved in Gandalf's pyrotechnic acuity but also, according to a remark by Cirdan, part of his gift for inspiring and organizing people (which suggests that perhaps the healing of Theoden was its single most dramatic use). Of the seven we know that they "need gold to breed gold," so it seems they are centrally about mineral wealth. We were going to give them a sort of dowsing power--the Arkenstone would have been found with the aid of the ring--as well as whatever material multiplication they seem to have been good for. Maybe more. I had hoped to have them differentiated, though, not just an identical set of seven. And for the Longbeards, especially right then, you would imagine a ring relating to mithril would be appropriate, no? Of the nine we know nothing, unless Elrond gives us a shadow of a hint that their function is essentially martial. Perhaps the fear that the nazgul inspire is actually one of the powers their rings grant? Striking fear on the battlefield? It would make sense; martial prowess is pretty much the human race's strongest suit, in this world.

Across the board I would expect Great Rings to have the anti-aging effect, but I'm not sure offhand if the granting of power according to stature is specific to the One.

(Side note: Saruman wears a ring and calls himself ring-maker. Perhaps his ring amplifies his power of persuasion? But what madness. Did he make it so long ago that he thought Sauron was forever gone? Did he make it only after Sauron ensnared him and the two were talking, such that likely Sauron offered him the knowledge of their making? Or was he actually so demented as to make a ring that he fully understood was designed to leave his whole self vulnerable to takeover by a profane power? It really points up how heavily he was betting on his efforts to retrieve the One himself.)

It was my brother's thought, one of my favorites, that the Great Rings should be made, ceremonially, all at once in their groups. The forging of the gold itself would be ceremonious but then they'd be placed in a complex mandala while much of the magic is done. All Celebrimbor's metalsmith friends would be there, with Annatar presiding. So the nine, so the seven, not sure which of those first.

But then Celebrimbor has seen enough to try it on his own. I don't suppose Annatar imagined that happening, any more than Celebrimbor imagined Annatar would mind; just a fellow artist experimenting further with his friend's technique. That's the thing about the two of them. Sauron is a divine being of some sort, a right fallen angel; by and large he can safely assume that no one can outdo him. But as happened now and again in the first age, a particularly inspired elf can achieve greatness enough to match or overmatch a divinity. Feanor's gifts shine on in his gentle grandson. Celebrimbor, ever restless and ambitious, conceives and forges the three during one of Annatar's frequent absences. And when Annatar finds out, it changes everything. This is escalating too fast. If Celebrimbor makes more rings of such power as this, he will no longer be able to make a One Ring strong enough to control them. It has to be right now. He departs for Mordor immediately.

We would need Sauron to have some manner of confederate, here, whether a fallen Numenorean or a spare balrog or some entirely invented entity; we just need some reason for him to explain what he's thinking. This servant could warn that it is already too late to make a One, and Sauron answers angrily: I will be the power. I will use up my own powers, all that I have, to make a Ring more terrible than any.

Another message from the time:
{Be fun to cook up some elfier rituals, less grim and volcanic ways of drawing power from the world around and setting it in order to be made solid in some heirloom.

To which point--whatever S does to himself during the forging of the One should be pretty ghastly. And still there is an interstitial part of the ceremony he must carry out while there's barely any of him left, in order to complete the One and get it all back magnified.

Maybe he goes right into the magma.

Maybe C forges the Three in a thundering downpour. Or at the summit of Zirak-zigil, atop the Endless Stair, in high wind.}

When Sauron finishes the One, his Annatar form is gone, no longer needed. Now he is the god of war that the Last Alliance will face. (Apocryphal, I know.) Celebrimbor, as we know, perceives what he has done; possibly he is able to return to the three and add to them a glamor of concealment, before passing them off to Gil-Galad, Galadriel and Cirdan (all of whom were likely gathered at Mithlond around then). Warning is sent to Khazad-dum, but no one else is warned in time.

Celebrimbor has one more trick to try before taking up the futile defense of Eregion. He perceived Sauron clearly indeed; he knows what the One is, and he understands how the magic works. I was very interested in the notion that he might try to build another master ring, in rivalry with Sauron's. And maybe he could even have done it, but we'll never know, because the armies of Mordor show up too soon. These Rings take time, you don't whip them up in a day.

We never worked out much specific about the sack of Eregion, concentrating mostly on the confrontation between Celebrimbor and Sauron once the defense has fallen, wherein Celebrimbor won't give up any information about the rings. But I was intrigued to see that a joint host of Moria-dwarves and Galadhrim issued from the Moria-doors to aid Eregion before falling back in defeat; I love imagining the moment when the survivors of that unit pull the doors to and hear hellions of Mordor beating at the stone outside, safe but defeated, knowing Eregion was hopelessly outmatched.

There was a bunch more, of course, but that part of the story was my favorite material.


Mari D.
The Shire


Aug 26, 12:41pm

Post #36 of 65 (905 views)
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Thanks for sharing :-) [In reply to] Can't Post

I was coming here to find something interesting to read and sure enough I did :-)
It makes for a fascinating story, esp. the interaction betw. Sauron and Celebrimbor. I enjoyed reading it.
For a moment there, I thought you could write it all as a fanfiction :D
But that'd probably be not so appealing an idea, given for how much more meaningful a purpose the ideas were first conceived.

Definitely interested in reading about more of your ideas, though ... as you decide it makes sense to share them :-)


(This post was edited by Mari D. on Aug 26, 12:42pm)


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Aug 26, 1:44pm

Post #37 of 65 (876 views)
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Annatar Gift-Bringer [In reply to] Can't Post

I suspect that Sauron should not lose his Annatar guise due to the crafting of the One Ring. Even after his disguise is penetrated, he will want to keep up that fair appearance for his encounters with the Army of Númenor and Ar-Pharazôn.

I still would not have wanted to see the War of the Elves and Sauron and the coming of the Army of Númenor compressed into a single series of events, but I can see how you and your brother might have felt it necessary under the circumstances.

"For a brief time I was here; and for a brief time I mattered." - Harlan Ellison


Eruonen
Valinor


Aug 27, 12:48am

Post #38 of 65 (816 views)
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Something nobody has mentioned and out of left field... [In reply to] Can't Post

AELFWINE should make his appearance as the bridge between worlds.


squire
Half-elven


Aug 27, 12:49am

Post #39 of 65 (813 views)
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Whoops! [In reply to] Can't Post

I'd like to see that one.

Assuming it could get past the contract that this series derives from the published LotR, not the Sil corpus.



squire online:
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Eruonen
Valinor


Aug 27, 12:55am

Post #40 of 65 (810 views)
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That brings up the question....have the rights been changed since the [In reply to] Can't Post

Tolkien Estate seems to be much more involved with this effort. I wonder if some previously off limits material is available with their approval?


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Aug 27, 1:23am

Post #41 of 65 (805 views)
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Possibly? [In reply to] Can't Post

The most recent information any of us seems to have indicates that Amazon only has rights to use material from The Lord of the Rings, but there might be more to the story than that.

"For a brief time I was here; and for a brief time I mattered." - Harlan Ellison


squire
Half-elven


Aug 27, 1:42am

Post #42 of 65 (796 views)
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I am surprised [In reply to] Can't Post

(not really) that you didn't consider introducing the 'drugs', i.e. the Wild Men or druedain, who figure a little in The Lord of the Rings (though not in the films), and who Tolkien specifically inserted into the Second Age during his consideration of how to 'humanize' the tales of the Elder Days in the way that the hobbits humanized the tale of the Third Age. See 'Unfinished Tales' on the Druedain, for more info. Tolkien was pretty definite that hobbits had no place in the Elder Days, either the First or Second Ages.



squire online:
RR Discussions: The Valaquenta, A Shortcut to Mushrooms, and Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit
Lights! Action! Discuss on the Movie board!: 'A Journey in the Dark'. and 'Designing The Two Towers'.
Archive: All the TORn Reading Room Book Discussions (including the 1st BotR Discussion!) and Footerama: "Tolkien would have LOVED it!"
Dr. Squire introduces the J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia: A Reader's Diary


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uncle Iorlas
Bree


Aug 27, 8:24pm

Post #43 of 65 (634 views)
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I know, it's all just fanfic now [In reply to] Can't Post

Really, though, that's all it ever was, and all it will be with any writer. But that would have been fanfic with a budget.


uncle Iorlas
Bree


Aug 27, 8:36pm

Post #44 of 65 (633 views)
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right [In reply to] Can't Post

I knew you would pick up on that point. It's just a domino effect of the big change, really the biggest one we were going to make (though not the only), ending Numenor around the beginning of Eregion. We did still mean to try snd have the Numenoreans show up separately and later, for other reasons, to dramatize their better success in beating Sauron back, and have the rest of the war unfold as much as possible according to script from there (though we had fun with the choreography of the final battle, rather vexed by the question: why flit off to rebuild at Dol Guldur when you're struck down on the doorstep of your own citadel?).

But the timeline as a whole was going to be vastly compressed, and readers like you would surely notice, as I always did. Durin IV enthroned in Khazad-dum. Only a few generations of Numenoreans between Elendil and Earnur.

Look, though. I bet you anything you like that no other writer who got as far as a meeting with Amazon would or will change things less than we would have.


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Aug 27, 8:44pm

Post #45 of 65 (629 views)
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To change, and how much to change. That is the question. [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
It's just a domino effect of the big change, really the biggest one we were going to make (though not the only), ending Numenor around the beginning of Eregion.


Can you really invert those two events though? It seems essential to me that the destruction of Númenor is the event that signals the beginning of the end of the Second Age, and that really needs to come after the forging of the Great Rings and the War of the Elves and Sauron, if only to end the war and bring the Dark Lord to Númenor.

Given that the Tolkien Estate seems to have retained veto rights this time around (script approval?), it all may come down to what they are willing to sign off on. What changes for the series can they be convinced are necessary and desirable?

"For a brief time I was here; and for a brief time I mattered." - Harlan Ellison

(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Aug 27, 8:49pm)


uncle Iorlas
Bree


Aug 27, 8:45pm

Post #46 of 65 (631 views)
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It's been years since I read about the Druedain [In reply to] Can't Post

The studio wanted hobbits, for one thing. They feel like hobbits are part of the experience, and they are, an essential mediating layer between the mythic giants and the modern, presumptively English reader. So we were looking for ways to shoehorn some in, knowing it must be only tangential, and Stoors working their way north on the near side of the Misties is one plausible way. What did he say about not having hobbits in the earlier ages? There's much I haven't read.

As for druedain, two things. Were they ever west of the mountains? I know there's evidence for their presence at Dunharrow (consider that when you say woses have no contact with Rohirrim) but that's still far out of the way for a story about the Rings' creation, which is what we were asked to pitch.

More importantly, though, I wouldn't be quick to use the Wild Men more than I had to in any event, because they're a pretty hackneyed serving of Noble Savage and it's honestly a bit embarrassing. Tolkien was not good at race, alas.


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Aug 27, 9:11pm

Post #47 of 65 (620 views)
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Hobbits and Woses [In reply to] Can't Post

According to Tolkien, no one really took note of the Hobbits before the Third Age but none seem to have crossed west of the Misty Mountains until they were driven away from the Anduin Vales by the Necromancer's presence in Mirkwood Forest. So, no Stoors in Eriador in the Second Age unless you put them there yourself.

Yes, there were Drúedain west of the Misty Mountains in the Second Age. Some. who lived in Beleriand in the First Age, accompanied the People of Haleth to Númenor, though their descendants felt premonitions of the island's destruction and begged to be taken back to Middle-earth. Others dwelt south of the River Isen on the Cape of Andrast or in the land later known as Old Pukel-land between Andrast and Enedwaith. The Drughu apparently used poison arrows, but allegedly only against Orcs (which was pretty decent of them considering how they were treated by the Horse-lords of Rohan and before that by the Númenóreans in Eriador).

The stone Pukel-men were apparently brought to Dunharrow by a later people long after they were originally crafted.

"For a brief time I was here; and for a brief time I mattered." - Harlan Ellison

(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Aug 27, 9:12pm)


squire
Half-elven


Aug 27, 9:53pm

Post #48 of 65 (617 views)
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Yup, yup, and yup [In reply to] Can't Post

It's almost amusing to hear you say "the studio wanted hobbits" to make a tale of the Elder Days (or thenabouts) more palatable to a Tolkien audience. That's exactly what Tolkien said, more or less, for several decades after finishing LotR and trying to finish The Silmarillion. He said they were an essential mediating layer between the mythic giants and the modern, presumptively English reader. Oh wait, you said that. Well, you were channeling Tolkien in the late 1950s and early 1960s.

But he refused to do it. He felt, I believe, that the discordance would be too great. Instead, according to Christopher Tolkien in the later History of Middle-earth volumes, he explored turning the Druedain into something like hobbit-equivalents in story-function, though not in any exact likeness. The drugs are stronger, more mysterious, earthier, magical, and just plain stranger. Nevertheless that earthiness, Tolkien hoped or felt, might give a kind of low-level perspective on the High and the Mighty that modern readers could grab on to.

If you want to know, Tolkien contemplated adding the Druedain to the First Age tales of Hurin and Turin, with their becoming the protectors/scouts of the Edain in their wars against Morgoth. Then they were taken along to Numenor, where they were the first to beg to be taken off the isle as things got dark, sensing as only the Druedain can sense that nothing good can come of defying the Valar. In the Third Age there was a surviving colony of them in Western Gondor and the Tharbad area, from which the connection would lead to the remnants of their fading culture at Dunharrow and the Anorien woods. The stories from this phase of Tolkien's creation can be found in Unfinished Tales, and as I said, one of the later HoME volumes.

And finally - yup, the stuff Tolkien turned out about them was embarrassingly 'Noble Savage' in tone, and quite unacceptable as written. The aspect I liked the most was the hint that the Druedain and the Orcs had some hidden connection. The hint was never developed, but my take was that they had been of the same race, with one branch becoming corrupted by the Dark Lord and the other branch surviving, but assuming the status of primitive 'natives' in the world of modern Men and Elves.

(As it happens, I led an extensive discussion of this topic a while ago in the Reading Room, which is unfortunately now lost with the aging of the old servers!)



squire online:
RR Discussions: The Valaquenta, A Shortcut to Mushrooms, and Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit
Lights! Action! Discuss on the Movie board!: 'A Journey in the Dark'. and 'Designing The Two Towers'.
Archive: All the TORn Reading Room Book Discussions (including the 1st BotR Discussion!) and Footerama: "Tolkien would have LOVED it!"
Dr. Squire introduces the J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia: A Reader's Diary


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Voronwë_the_Faithful
Valinor

Aug 28, 3:18am

Post #49 of 65 (575 views)
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I doubt that The Hobbit is excluded [In reply to] Can't Post

The original contracts selling the film rights, that included TV rights, included both LOTR and The Hobbit together. In fact, for odd reasons, one contract covers FOTR and ROTK and the other one covers The Hobbit and The Two Towers. So it would be very strange if the new deal excluded The Hobbit.

'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'

The Hall of Fire


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Aug 28, 12:33pm

Post #50 of 65 (505 views)
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You might be right. [In reply to] Can't Post

I have seen hints though that this deal might differ significantly from the deals for the films and might not include the rights to The Hobbit. To my own knowledge, this has not been confirmed one way or the other, though uncle Iorlas' posts have hinted that Amazon has only the television rights for The Lord of the Rings. Maybe unc' can clarify his own understanding of the situation, although it might have altered since the end of his brief involvement in the series.

"For a brief time I was here; and for a brief time I mattered." - Harlan Ellison

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