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squire
Half-elven
Oct 23 2018, 5:56pm
Post #76 of 81
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Yes, alliances, unions, falls, and deaths may frame 'family dramas', but they do not provide or suggest anything about them.
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Of course the appendices present, in broad annalistic form, the rough outlines of the history of the kingdoms of the Dunedain in the Third Age.
But 'family drama' is more than the fall of a realm or the death of a principal. Family drama is a confrontation, with specifics, context, back story, and dialogue. We see it, even if briefly, in the Silmarillion in the debates about Finwe's two marriages and between his two step-families; the conflict between Thingol and Luthien; and in the entire tale of Hurin and Turin. In LotR we see, with much more writing and detail, the conflicts within the Baggins family; in the house of Theoden, and in the tale of the Stewards of Minas Tirith.
No such scenes exist for the earlier Third Age, beyond the broadest frameworks which you list. If any of those events are used to create a 'family drama', it will have to be invented, of course - completely from scratch. Such invention begs to become generic very quickly, given that even Tolkien was writing within a genre. His inventions are not particularly unique, but they are specific to him because in the end he did write them, with dialogue, situation, and context. Non-specific mock-Tolkien becomes the property and creation and style of the writing team, not the author they will say their work is "based on".
Again, sorry to go off a bit. I remain impressed at how varied are others' reactions to this project, from what we know about it and its commercial motivations so far (out-do Game of Thrones, building on the fan base from Jackson's version of Tolkien).
squire online:
RR Discussions: The Valaquenta, A Shortcut to Mushrooms, and Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit
Lights! Action! Discuss on the Movie board!: 'A Journey in the Dark'. and 'Designing The Two Towers'.
Archive: All the TORn Reading Room Book Discussions (including the 1st BotR Discussion!) and Footerama: "Tolkien would have LOVED it!"
Dr. Squire introduces the J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia: A Reader's Diary
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Thor 'n' Oakenshield
Rohan
Oct 23 2018, 8:47pm
Post #77 of 81
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Is, of course, found in the Silmarillion; so why should we believe it didn't exist throughout the Second and Third Ages? I wasn't suggesting a Middle-earth soap opera, but something a little more epic and powerful, as would befit the setting. We know next to nothing about the royal family of Arnor and the three kingdoms; that doesn't mean those families didn't exist in the world Tolkien created. It's like saying that the Far South is only "strange stars" because that's all Tolkien ever wrote about it. I find that sort of "logic" to be slightly flawed.
I think Otaku's idea could be really cool onscreen, too; if one wanted to make the whole thing less sprawling, covering fewer generations. The events that Tolkien actually did create would obviously be the backbone of such a series, but you would have to flesh out the characters, locations, etc, and make them three-dimensional. It's not like Tolkien himself didn't change things around and play with different ideas while writing; if he hadn't changed his mind, Filmamir could have been book Faramir too. We could have had hobbit Aragorn, Aragorn & Eowyn, Eowyn's cousin Idis, etc, etc. There's nothing wrong with adding to the storyline, that's what Tolkien himself wanted future generations to do. I find it somewhat ironic that people always forget that he said that. His tree was far from complete when he died; it's up to us who follow in his footsteps to add the leaves. Just so long as the original tree doesn't rot and die because of our additions, I think we're good. It's a careful process – and anyway, it was just a suggestion I created very quickly offhand, because Otaku asked how one would create 5 seasons of a TV show based off events in the Appendices of Lord of the Rings: I chose the events I would find most interesting onscreen!
"Torment in the dark was the danger that I feared, and it did not hold me back. But I would not have come, had I known the danger of light and joy. Now I have taken my worst wound in this parting, even if I were to go this night straight to the Dark Lord."
(This post was edited by Thor 'n' Oakenshield on Oct 23 2018, 8:58pm)
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Mari D.
Rivendell
Oct 30 2018, 7:26pm
Post #78 of 81
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I wasn't thinking of family "drama", rather of ...
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... normal interaction, e.g. ... the younger generation joining the older on an adventure before the older dies ... or, some younger character admiring some older character's prowess in battle (the don't need to be family) and trying to imitate them ... two characters ending up interacting for some reason, in some way, one giving the other some important advice ... little overlaps of characters' story arcs, nothing too far-fetched, that create meaningful interaction or at least an emotional connection betw. generations.
My concern is: How to include as much of the orginal material as possible?
If the whole story centers around one generation only, and there's only little information about that generation, I'd think the ratio "original material : fanfiction" might turn out less favorable than if you cover multiple generations.
(This post was edited by Mari D. on Oct 30 2018, 7:26pm)
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uncle Iorlas
Rohan
Oct 30 2018, 10:01pm
Post #79 of 81
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Your sentiment keeps rattling around my head, Squire, in large measure because I am quite sympathetic to it. Again, during my brief spell chasing the authorship of this show, I was motivated in great part by the surety that someone will be making it regardless; I don't know that I would ever have initiated it, were I in any position to. (Indeed if it were up to me I'd have just do e the trilogy itself, where the least invention is required.)
But. I think the notes and marginalia that we have suggest more in some cases than others. Any encounter with entwives, for example, must be almost pure invention, since we have only the broad remarks of one old geezer to go on. Similarly any syories of Tooks or Fairbairns or the people of Haleth or any dwarves other than Longbeards. But in the case of Elrond's family history, to return to an example that has much occupied my thoughts, is there not much we can infer with certainty? Certain strains and sentiments which can scarcely fail to have passed between them, even though they are never named in the text? Or the fertile period of Eregion and its artisans?
There's certainly an appeal to the purity of your view. And certainly I must agree that any fan-fiction, however scholarly or painstakingly rendered, is no more Tolkien than historical fiction is history. But there can be beauty in such places.
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Oct 31 2018, 2:29am
Post #80 of 81
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But. I think the notes and marginalia that we have suggest more in some cases than others. Any encounter with entwives, for example, must be almost pure invention, since we have only the broad remarks of one old geezer to go on. Similarly any [stories] of Tooks or Fairbairns or the people of Haleth or any dwarves other than Longbeards. But in the case of Elrond's family history, to return to an example that has much occupied my thoughts, is there not much we can infer with certainty? Certain strains and sentiments which can scarcely fail to have passed between them, even though they are never named in the text? Or the fertile period of Eregion and its artisans?
There are mentions of Dwarves of the Blue Mountains in the appendices with specific references to Nogrod and Belegost. Not all the Dwarves of the Ered Luin migrated to Khazad-dûm after the War of Wrath, though a lot of imagination would need to be used to write about those who remained. Writers probably would not be able to use such clan names as Broadbeams or Firebeards, but that is easily gotten around.
"For a brief time I was here; and for a brief time I mattered." - Harlan Ellison
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Thor 'n' Oakenshield
Rohan
Oct 31 2018, 11:14pm
Post #81 of 81
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You mean, like, Elrond, Celebrian, Arwen, Elladan, Elrohir? I've thought about the dynamic of this family before, too, and I find it interesting to consider what – well, I won't call it "family drama" – what sort of rifts there might have been in Imladris, and what the other Elves there thought of Arwen's choice. And her brothers' choices, too. In my screenplay idea, I have a conversation between Arwen and Bilbo about what lies in the West, the meaning of life, and of death, and the nature of mortality. I also made use of the Elfstone: in Unfinished Tales I recall reading that through the stone could be seen visions of how things looked in the spring of their youth (I may be wrong about that?), and as there was confusion in Tolkien's later notes about where the Elfstone came from, and who had it when, I had it possessed by Arwen for a time, who looks through it to see Rivendell as it was, her family restored to its blissful innocence in the days before the Return of Sauron - but I'm just rambling.  But I would say there's about the same amount of material to go on for any encounter with Entwives (Treebeard is the only one who talks about them, yes, but he talks a lot!).
But eventually I suppose there have to be elements of "fan-fiction" in any adaptation, even though I dislike that word in this case.
"Torment in the dark was the danger that I feared, and it did not hold me back. But I would not have come, had I known the danger of light and joy. Now I have taken my worst wound in this parting, even if I were to go this night straight to the Dark Lord."
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