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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
What would you like to see in the 2nd GdT film?
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Keebler the Elf
Rivendell


May 2 2008, 3:26pm

Post #1 of 42 (544 views)
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What would you like to see in the 2nd GdT film? Can't Post

I'd like to see Gandalf at Dol Goldur. And also the White Council's battle against Sauron, driving him out of Dol Goldur. That would be a must see for everybody. But, would it be too scary for PG-13?

Mmmmmm....somethin' smells good!!!!! Could it be cookies baked in a tree?

Keebler's Website

Those were good cookies.....TIME TO HUNT SOME ORC!!!!!!!!!


merklynn
Lorien


May 2 2008, 3:35pm

Post #2 of 42 (354 views)
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At its simplest... [In reply to] Can't Post

I'd like to see 3 hours of entertaining, faithful in spirit, elaboration on the events between the Hobbit and Fellowship. Can't really expect much more than that. I trust the creative team to deliver to us an exploration beyond what was in Tolkiens books, which feels fitting and comforting. The bottom line is that I want to be entertained, and whether that means we get Dol Guldur and the White Council, or something completely different, as long as it is done well and the journey is fun, then I am ready and willing to sit down and enjoy the ride.

I'd hate to feel I was indirectly putting pressure on del Toro and Jackson to include my favorite ideas from the appendices or my favorite characters. I'm afraid pushing too hard for what I want will cause it to slip like sand through my fingers.


(This post was edited by merklynn on May 2 2008, 3:36pm)


Idril Celebrindal
Tol Eressea


May 2 2008, 4:28pm

Post #3 of 42 (354 views)
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In no particular order... [In reply to] Can't Post

  • Sauron returning to Mordor
  • Balin & company's disatrous attempt to recolonize Moria
  • Aragorn and Gandalf hunting for Gollum
  • The last meeting of the White Council
  • Aragorn's service in Rohan and Gondor and travels to the east
  • Aragorn & Arwen's romance
  • Saruman coming under the sway of Sauron


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Smaugie
The Shire


May 2 2008, 4:32pm

Post #4 of 42 (324 views)
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Moria! [In reply to] Can't Post

  • Balin & company's disatrous attempt to recolonize Moria


  • This is number one on my list!



    grammaboodawg
    Immortal


    May 2 2008, 6:30pm

    Post #5 of 42 (292 views)
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    Mee Too! [In reply to] Can't Post

    and maybe seeing how Frodo came to be adopted by Bilbo and living at Bag End. Maybe the 4 hobbits as youngsters showing how their grown counterparts were not unlike them in their youth(s). :D



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    Keebler the Elf
    Rivendell


    May 2 2008, 7:25pm

    Post #6 of 42 (279 views)
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    I like it! [In reply to] Can't Post

    Sounds like a great show!!!! I'd like to see the White Council, because we've never heard what happens to the Blue Wizards, never got to see Radagast the Brown, and it'd be cool to see that I think.

    Mmmmmm....somethin' smells good!!!!! Could it be cookies baked in a tree?

    Keebler's Website

    Those were good cookies.....TIME TO HUNT SOME ORC!!!!!!!!!


    Marionette
    Rohan


    May 2 2008, 7:26pm

    Post #7 of 42 (288 views)
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    GdT= Guillermo del Toro? [In reply to] Can't Post

    I understand GdT is Guillermo del Toro which means: the second Hobbit movie...

    I would love to see the LOTR pre-stories:

    SmileTo fix a bit Denethor figure I would like them to show when Aragorn and Denethor met, and Aragorn was the favorite of Denethor´s father.
    It would help to understand Denethor´s crazy behaviour in LOTR ROTK movie XD

    BlushAragorn and Arwen story, basically what we read at the end of LOTR ROTK book

    SmileBasically what´s on LOTR Apprentices


    (This post was edited by Masquerade_Górtari on May 2 2008, 7:27pm)


    Keebler the Elf
    Rivendell


    May 2 2008, 7:29pm

    Post #8 of 42 (267 views)
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    Good idea too... [In reply to] Can't Post

    Yah the LOtR appendices would be great. There are a lot of options. I wonder if Mr.Del Toro already has a plan?

    Mmmmmm....somethin' smells good!!!!! Could it be cookies baked in a tree?

    Keebler's Website

    Those were good cookies.....TIME TO HUNT SOME ORC!!!!!!!!!


    Empedocles
    Rivendell


    May 2 2008, 8:34pm

    Post #9 of 42 (274 views)
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    I want to see [In reply to] Can't Post

    The same as everybody I guess, though I wouldn't mind if GdT decides to expand things
    • Dol Guldur, of course, Elrond, Galadriel, Celeborn, Glorfindel and maybe Haldir fighting Sauron and his servants.
    • The alliance between Umbar and Sauron. I want to see the destruction of the monument commemorating Ar-Pharazon's victory over Sauron!!! I always pictured it like a sort of Colossus of Rhodes type of monument
    • Aragorn's adventures in Rohan and Gondor, specially his expeditions in southern Gondor and the battles against the pirates
    • The First time Gandalf and Aragorn meet
    • Something that will show us how Aragorn and the rest of the Dunedain protected the Shire
    • A relentless pursuit of Gollum by Gandalf and Aragorn (I wouldn't mind if they can expand that and add things that are not in the book). Maybe they can do a sort of "who gets Gollum first" between them and Mordor
    • Balin's expedition to Moria
    • The death of Frodo's parents
    • Aragorn capturing Gollum, then taking him to Thranduil, Gollum escaping


    And as much as they can get from the appendixes.

    Guillermo!! Give us back Glorfindel!!!


    Eledhwen
    Forum Admin / Moderator


    May 2 2008, 10:21pm

    Post #10 of 42 (252 views)
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    Aragorn's great journey [In reply to] Can't Post

    From Rivendell to Harad. I'd love to see what they could make of Harad. And the battle between the Corsairs and the Gondorians at Umbar. A younger Denethor, and we'd get to see Ecthelion too. It'd be great.

    Akaroa jetty, New Zealand, March 2008

    Akaroa jetty


    Snaga
    Lorien


    May 2 2008, 11:26pm

    Post #11 of 42 (254 views)
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    So much to choose from.... [In reply to] Can't Post

    They have to consider not only what's in Tolkien's material, but I suspect prioritize somewhat with regards to transitioning into or setting up material in FOTR and the other films.

    But my personal preference would be-
    • Gandalf and the council "punk out" the Necromancer. This would be one of those relatively rare chances for them to let Gandalf show just how formidable he is, much more than just a bent old man. As I recollect the material is kind of open to interpretation here and full of possibilities.
    • Something of Aragorn’s travels, the capture of Gollum, and Gandalf’s interrogation. Perhaps tied in somehow, or referencing, Aragorn’s visit to Lothlorien.
    • Also, the Hobbit ends up being made the way I’d like it to be then Balin will be a character of real substance by the second movie. This movie could easily address his expedition to Moria and work towards explaining the significance of Khazad Dum, and the cultural “pull” it has on the Dwarven race.

    There’s probably many more directions I could come up with if I went back through the written material. I’m still kind of putting my mind around this, but right now it just sort of feels to me like it should be a Gandalf, Aragorn and perhaps Smeagol centered movie. With the obvious exception of Frodo they have a lot of presence within the storyline of the three initial (but following) movies.


    "Alas for Boromir! It was too sore a trial!"

    -Faramir, reflecting on his brother.


    Pandæmonium
    The Shire

    May 2 2008, 11:50pm

    Post #12 of 42 (250 views)
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    Oh I must enter a subject, must I? [In reply to] Can't Post


    In Reply To
  • Aragorn & Arwen's romance


  • I want to see this. It needs no more than one or two scenes, barely more than five minutes each.
    I mainly want to see it because Liv Tyler is beautiful (to say nothing of her voice) and her costumes in the original trilogy were stunning without exception.
    Not exactly high brow reasons, I grant you.

    As for the wider film, my initial assumption had always been that it would focus largely on Aragorn - starting with him alongside Elrond's sons, and ending with his attack against Umbar with the ships from Gondor.
    I think that, by the end of The Hobbit I'll have had quite enough of Dwarves without seeing the interquel full of them too.

    The Attack of the White Council is a difficult one. It really belongs in the first film, but I wonder if they'll have the time. It would make a great set-piece for sure...


    N.E. Brigand
    Half-elven


    May 2 2008, 11:55pm

    Post #13 of 42 (254 views)
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    What will Aragorn's fall from grace be? [In reply to] Can't Post


    Quote
    As for the wider film, my initial assumption had always been that it would focus largely on Aragorn - starting with him alongside Elrond's sons, and ending with his attack against Umbar with the ships from Gondor.


    As squire has noted, the prequel will probably have to explain why he chose exile, to set up the situation in LotR.

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    Ataahua
    Superuser / Moderator


    May 3 2008, 12:16am

    Post #14 of 42 (250 views)
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    Same here. [In reply to] Can't Post

    I'd love to see how we end up with the dishevelled Chamber of Mazarbul in FOTR. (And more Balrog is never a bad thing.)

    Second would be the White Council and how they drive the Necromancer out of Mirkwood.

    Celebrimbor: "Pretty rings..."
    Dwarves: "Pretty rings..."
    Men: "Pretty rings..."
    Sauron: "Mine's better."

    "Ah, how ironic, the addictive qualities of Sauron’s master weapon led to its own destruction. Which just goes to show, kids - if you want two small and noble souls to succeed on a mission of dire importance... send an evil-minded b*****d with them too." - Gandalf's Diaries, final par, by Ufthak.


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    Sunflower
    Valinor

    May 3 2008, 12:49am

    Post #15 of 42 (227 views)
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    You're on to something there, Idril! [In reply to] Can't Post

    The events related in the Book oF Mazurbul always gave me the *SHIVERS*. And as it is in FOTR it is perfectly usable.

    Oh wow...I'll have to start taking my LOTR and reading it to see what "backstory' is in the text I missed.....I'll be saying "Are they filming this?"

    Personally, I just hope Christopher Lee is signed on soon, and that he still is in great shape when it comes time to film.


    Compa_Mighty
    Tol Eressea


    May 3 2008, 12:52am

    Post #16 of 42 (231 views)
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    I know what I don't want [In reply to] Can't Post

    • Not a silly mish mash of anything Tolkien that wasn't added in the trilogy or that is merely shot because of a personal whim of anyone.
    • Not an incomprehensible story due to bad writing or wanting to show too much in too little time.
    • Not all Aragorn, with Viggo as a 20 year old! Unimpressed

    That's about it, anything else should be good. Wink

    Here's to Del Toro becoming the Irvin Kershner of Middle Earth!

    Essay winner of the Show us your Hobbit Pride Giveway!


    Keebler the Elf
    Rivendell


    May 3 2008, 1:08am

    Post #17 of 42 (223 views)
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    Oh yeah, I'd love to see Mazerbul.. [In reply to] Can't Post

    That would be so exciting to see the dwarf nation battle it out with the goblins in Moria. Maybe it could be three storylines at once...

    1. The Dwarves vs. Goblins War
    2. The White Council vs. the Necromancer
    3. Aragorn's early life with the Elves up to FotR.

    and maybe a fourth theme as well...

    4. Bilbo's inbetween years between Hobbit and FotR, with Frodo involved, and various Shire events.

    maybe even the men of Dale.

    5. an epilogue of the Hobbit events involving Dale.

    Mmmmmm....somethin' smells good!!!!! Could it be cookies baked in a tree?

    Keebler's Website

    Those were good cookies.....TIME TO HUNT SOME ORC!!!!!!!!!


    grammaboodawg
    Immortal


    May 3 2008, 1:19am

    Post #18 of 42 (211 views)
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    Three hours... minimum :D *twitch* // [In reply to] Can't Post

     



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    Trust him... The Hobbit is coming!

    "Barney Snow was here." ~Hug like a hobbit!~ "In my heaven..."


    TORn's Observations Lists


    Reptile
    Rivendell


    May 3 2008, 2:23am

    Post #19 of 42 (224 views)
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    Who are the "Five?" [In reply to] Can't Post

    I love all these ideas, and I can't really decide which I think I'd put on top, but I was completely blown away by the Moria scene in FoTR: the single most exciting sequence I've ever seen in any movie any where any time... well up until RoTK. So I'd absolutely love it if they revisited the mines.

    But as to the title of this post, it's always bothered me that Saruman makes this reference to Gandalf wanting the five rods of the Five Wizards. Three are obvious, but who are the other two. [note: I'm still fasting, waiting for the high def versions, so I apologize if I'm having a brain-glitch here. Haven't watched the movies in so long, I might have forgotten the number Saruman spoke of.]

    "If you listen closely, you can hear the gods laughing."


    Rivendweller
    Lorien


    May 3 2008, 2:26am

    Post #20 of 42 (223 views)
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    Merry watching Bilbo slip on the ring [In reply to] Can't Post

    to avoid the Sackville-Bagginses. Wink

    There's something of everything here, The Shire and the Golden Wood and Gondor and kings' houses and inns and meadows and mountains all mixed.

    ....and there are Elves when you want them.
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    Formerly A'amel from days gone by.


    Sunflower
    Valinor

    May 3 2008, 2:32am

    Post #21 of 42 (224 views)
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    The five Istari (The Wise). [In reply to] Can't Post

    The five Wizards.

    Saruman the White (Curunir, the "Cunning of Tongue"=he was known as the "smooth talker" by the Elves)
    Gandalf the Grey (Olorin/Mithrandir) --he who knew Pity and Wisdom
    Radagast The Brown--friend of the birds and beasts of Middle-earth (he is briefly mentioned in the FOTR chapter "The Council Of Elrond")

    Tolkien had two other wizards in the Council, he never told us any more about them. Why, I don't know...maybe b/c other colors would be too corny?


    (This post was edited by Sunflower on May 3 2008, 2:33am)


    Compa_Mighty
    Tol Eressea


    May 3 2008, 4:16am

    Post #22 of 42 (296 views)
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    So I was gonna say! [In reply to] Can't Post

    But I believe the two Blue Wizards were already lost in the East by the time of the White Council. Two great pieces about the Blue Wizards: Nasmith's painting:

    http://www.tednasmith.com/..._Journeying_East.jpg

    And a wonderful article which was posted at a fan site, in a link I can no longer find... fortunately, I had the text in my hard drive! It's not gooing to be pretty (very long), but here goes the complete text (a very complete one) on the two wizards that were merely mentioned in the works of Tolkien:

    (If anyone thinks we should start another thread for this, please tell me!)


    Ithryn Luin
    Meaning: The Blue Wizards
    Names
    Alatar and Pallando, changed to Morinehtar and Romestamo
    Kind
    Maiar
    Family/Division
    Istari
    Lifespan
    no known beginning or end


    The blue wizards are (along with Tom Bombadil and Goldberry, and the matter of Balrog wings) probably the most uncertain and unknown characters of Professor J.R.R. Tolkien's works. Being not referred to in the Lord of the Rings trilogy--and even only Saruman’s enraged comment about “the rods of the five wizards” (The Two Towers “The Voice of Saruman") indicates the possibility of their presence--only after the death of the Professor was some relevant information revealed about them. That moment occured when Unfinished Tales was published in 1980. This book contains a collection of tales and essays that Christopher Tolkien has recovered from his father's works and edited into a book. One of those essays concerned the Istari, another name for the wizard order. Inside this section of the book, finally some information was revealed about them; and indeed, this is the greatest source about information on the Istari as a whole.

    In the first text presented in Unfinished Tales, dated tentatively by Christopher Tolkien to 1954, the arrival of the wizards to the great havens is given. After a description of Saruman’s arrival, some information follows about the blue wizards:

    "...But there were others, two dressed in sea-blue...of the Blue little was known in the west [of Middle-earth], and they had no names save Ithryn Luin ‘the Blue Wizards’; for they traveled to the east with Curunír, but they never returned; and whether they remaine in the East, pursuing there the purposes for which they sent; or perished; or as some hold were ensnared by Sauron and became his servants it is not now known. But none of these chances were impossible to be.”
    There is another text appended to this, which Christopher Tolkien claims belongs to the same time. In it, Gandalf is stated to be the only successful Istar, which first hints at the idea that the Blue Wizards failed their mission: "Indeed, of all the Istari, only one remained faithful, and he was the last-comer" (Unfinished Tales). Here, Radagast is said to have strayed from his mission in becoming enamoured with nature. But for the Blue
    Wizards, there is no mention of their fate. Still, this text indicates that their fates must be one of failure, though the story of the Blue Wizards was still early in its development

    The next source, chronoligically in the development of the story, is in one of Tolkien's letters(which were published by Humphrey Carpenter in The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien). In Letter 180, a draft dated January 14, 1956, Tolkien writes: "There is hardly any reference in The Lord of the Rings to things that do not actually exist on its own plane (of secondary sub-creational reality): sc. have been written." In a footnote labeled at the word exist, Tolkien adds "The Cats of Queen Berúthiel and the names and adventurers of the other 2 wizards (5 minus Saruman, Gandalf, and Radagast) are all that I recollect." Thus, it is clear that at this point, really nothing had been determined, by the author himself, about who the Blue Wizards were (this letter even indicates less knowledge of the two wizardds than the first text gives above).

    Another letter fills the spot of the next significant source for information on the two wizards. Letter 211, written in October 1958, offers more specific information about their fate:
    "I really do not know anything clearly about the other two - since they do not concern the history of the N.W. I think that they went as emissaries to distant regions, East and South, far out of Númenórean range: missionaries to 'enemy-occupied' lands, as it were. What success they had I do not know; but I fear that they failed, as Saruman did, though doubtless in different ways; and I suspect they were founders or beginners of secret cults and 'magic' traditions that outlasted the fall of Sauron."
    In this text Tolkien does begin to create a little story for the Blue Wizards, or at least an explanation of their fates, somewhat like that given in the first Unfinished Tales text, though here their failure is given as the more likely outcome. Tolkien's suspicion in many cases can be taken as fact, but not always.

    In Unfinished Tales there is another text which reveals a bit more information about the Blue Wizards. The dating of the text is not known, though it is placed after the writing of The Lord the Rings (it could have been written before or after the above letter, but it is not entirely important for this discussion). The text is a description of a council in Valinor in which the sending of the wizards was decided, and some new information is revealed about the Blue Wizards. Their names here are Alatar and Pallando, both Maiar of Oromë (though Pallando was changed from being a Maia of Manods and Nienna). Originally, Alatar was the only chosen by Oromë, but Alatar chose to take Pallando "as a friend." No reason is given for their attribution to Oromë, but Christopher Tolkien here speculates: "Oromë of all the Valar had the greatest knowledge of the further parts of Middle-earth, and that the Blue Wizards were destined to journey in those regions and to remain there." This idea is the one present in Letter 211, so that there is no apparent contradiction between these texts, but the creation of the Blue Wizards' names is very interesting, and hints of the existence of much more information than before, when they were not even named.

    All of the above information taken from the Unfinished Tales points to the arrival in Middle-earth around 1050 years after the beggining of the third age, since they arrived
    approximately at the same time as the other wizards (and this date is given in Appendix B to Return of the King). However, in 1996, when the twelfth book of the History of Middle Earth, The Peoples of Middle-Earth, was published, a new perspective on the Blue Wizards was revealed--a perspective that ran against the very information contained in essentially all previous sources on the two missing wizards. Notes that were considered uninterpretable during the writing of Unfinished Tales (as is stated in both books)were finally deciphered by Christopher Tolkien. Being written in the last years of Professor Tolkien's life - 1972 - the coming of the blue wizards is changed even in the date. The text given in The Peoples of Middle-Earth, "Last Writings," is here in full. First there is a more general overview of the wizards:
    No names are recorded for the two wizards. They were never seen or known in lands west of Mordor. The wizards did not come at the same time. Possibly Saruman, Gandalf, Radagast did, but more likely Saruman the chief (and already over mindful of this) came first and alone. Probably Gandalf and Radagast came together, though this has not yet been said. (what is most probable) ... Glorfindel also met Gandalf at the Havens. The other two are only known to (have) exist(ed) [sic]by Saruman, Gandalf, and Radagast, and Saruman in his wrath mentioning five was letting out a piece of private information.
    Again, here, we have reference to Saruman's comment of the "Rods of the Five Wizards" and the general mysteriousness of the two remaining Istari. However, there also follows a much more specific account:
    "The 'other two' came much earlier, at the same time probably as Glorfindel, when matters became very dangerous in the Second Age.(26) Glorfindel was sent to aid Elrond and was (though not yet said) pre-eminent in the war in Eriador.But the other two Istari were sent for a different purpose. Morinehtar and Romestamo. Darkness-slayer and East-helper. Their task was to circumvent Sauron: to bring help to the few tribes of Men that had rebelled from Melkor-worship, to stir -up rebellion...and after his first fall to search out his hiding (in which they failed) and to cause dissension and disarray among the dark East...They must have had very great influence on the history of the Second Age and Third Age in weakening and disarrayinbg the forces of the East...who would both in the Second and Third Age otherwise have ...outnumbered the West."
    It is now clear what Tolkien's last view on the matter (though last, like everything involving Tolkien's writings, does not simply mean finalized). The Blue Wizards arrived in the Second Age, around the year 1600 to aid in the wars against Sauron. They were not sent to help the forces of the Free Peoples in battle against evil, as the other wizards were, but to head into the east to destroy Sauron's base there amid the Easterlings. Whereas in Letter 211 the Ithryn Luin are left likely failing their mission, here the opposite is true, for they have become pivotal to the victories of the West in the Wars against Sauron by lessening Sauron's forces from the East. Also, their names are changed to Morinehtar and Romestamo.

    The matter of Glorfindel is not important here other than knowing that also in late writings of Tolkien it is explicitly clear that the Glorfindel of Gondolin was reincarnated, and he returned to Middle-earth likely at the time Sauron had forged the one Ring and was preparing war on the Elves who had discovered his secret (this will be discussed in full elsewhere). The Blue Wizards are said to have come with him to Middle-earth, but again, they were not sent to bolster Elrond's forces, but rather to weaken Sauron's, to disestablish his influence in the East.

    Ultimately, one can see that the Blue Wizards have had complicated history. Originally, nothing was known of them, and hardly a hint of their existence is in The Lord of the Rings. Soon, their mission to the East was established, and while at first they have even odds of succeeding and failing, it becomes very doubtful that they succeeded. However, in the ultimate texts, though the story is never fully achieved, the rumours of failure are eliminated; rather, the two wizards have become very important to the survival of Middle-earth and the defeat of Sauron. That this contradicts such statements as Gandalf being the only Wizard to remain faithful is clear, however, statements such as these are given at time when earlier ideas of the Blue Wizards were in consideration, and were not published in Tolkien's lifetime. It is suitably clear that Tolkien's final (or at least last) views on the Blue Wizards, Morinehtar and Romestamo, are those given in The Peoples of Middle-Earth, where he attributes to them an enormous role in the victories against Sauron.

    Here's to Del Toro becoming the Irvin Kershner of Middle Earth!

    Essay winner of the Show us your Hobbit Pride Giveway!


    N.E. Brigand
    Half-elven


    May 3 2008, 4:25am

    Post #23 of 42 (206 views)
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    See also this [In reply to] Can't Post

    ...recent discussion.

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    Join us Apr. 28-May 4 for "Treebeard".


    Voronwë_the_Faithful
    Valinor


    May 3 2008, 4:30am

    Post #24 of 42 (206 views)
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    That's Easy [In reply to] Can't Post

    It will result from his souring on the world of Men, and Gondor in particular, from his interactions with Denethor after serving Ecthelion as Thorongil, and defeating the Corsairs.

    'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'

    (This post was edited by Voronwë_the_Faithful on May 3 2008, 4:36am)


    Reptile
    Rivendell


    May 3 2008, 5:11am

    Post #25 of 42 (208 views)
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    So, does this imply that Gandalf already posessed the rods of the other two? [In reply to] Can't Post

    Wow, thanks for all the wonderous insights. I never realized that the back story was so convoluted. This Tolkien guy was really something. I'm going to have to digest this and try to figure out why he even brought them up in the first place. This world is still surprising me after all these long ages.

    "If you listen closely, you can hear the gods laughing."

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