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The Tolkien gaze - Meeting 'fair' people in Middle-earth
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noWizardme
Half-elven


Jun 27 2018, 2:56pm

Post #1 of 28 (4532 views)
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The Tolkien gaze - Meeting 'fair' people in Middle-earth Can't Post

A conversation started by Laineth ('Interracial Marriages'
see http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=946201#946201 has led me off on a tangent to consider how 'beautiful'characters are described, and whether it has more to do with them being elves, Goldberries etc. than it has to do with them being males or females. So I looked up some passages in LOTR.

Below are the first substantial mentions of some LOTR characters: Goldberry, Glorfindel, Elrond, Arwen, Galadriel and Celeborn, Eowyn and Aragorn first seeing each other, and then finally Eomer's meeting with Aragorn (from both POV's as far as the text allows it). So that gives us mostly women as seen by men, with some men seen by men for contrast. I'm also including what Eowyn thinks when she sees Aragorn - a female view of a male, which is rate in LOTR with its predominance of male POV characters. What I'm noticing is that although the characters may be described as 'fair' (as in 'beautiful', I think, rather than 'blond(e)' or one of the other meanings) the main impressions are not beauty in the sense of sexual desirability. As I read it, the elves and Goldberry (and Aragorn when he does a flash of Royal Charisma) are perceived with a sort of awe which includes their physical appearance, whereas at other times we get some telling character detail. The intention does not seem to be primarily to explain how sexually attractive the main characters are - in contrast to some other writers in fantasy and elsewhere. Probably because of this the description of a 'fair' male is more similar to the description of a 'fair' female than I had expected when I started collecting these quotes.

I'm not sure that I have a thesis about this - but maybe one will come out of its discussion.

Goldberry:


Quote

In a chair, at the far side of the room facing the outer door, sat a woman. Her long yellow hair rippled down her shoulders; her gown was green, green as young reeds, shot with silver like beads of dew; and her belt was of gold, shaped like a chain of flag-lilies set with the pale-blue eyes of forget-me-nots. About her feet in wide vessels of green and brown earthenware, white water-lilies were floating, so that she seemed to be enthroned in the midst of a pool.

‘Enter, good guests!’ she said, and as she spoke they knew that it was her clear voice they had heard singing. They came a few timid steps further into the room, and began to bow low, feeling strangely surprised and awkward, like folk that, knocking at a cottage door to beg for a drink of water, have been answered by a fair young elf-queen clad in living flowers


Glorfindel:


Quote
The rider’s cloak streamed behind him, and his hood was thrown back; his golden hair flowed shimmering in the wind of his speed. To Frodo it appeared that a white light was shining through the form and raiment of the rider, as if through a thin veil. Strider sprang from hiding and dashed down towards the Road, leaping with a cry through the heather; but even before he had moved or called, the rider had reined in his horse and halted, looking up towards the thicket where they stood. When he saw Strider, he dismounted and ran to meet him calling out: Ai na vedui Dúnadan! Mae govannen! His speech and clear ringing voice left no doubt in their hearts: the rider was of the Elven-folk. No others that dwelt in the wide world had voices so fair to hear.



Glorfindel (again) seen with Elrond and Arwen:



Quote
Glorfindel was tall and straight; his hair was of shining gold, his face fair and young and fearless and full of joy; his eyes were bright and keen, and his voice like music; on his brow sat wisdom, and in his hand was strength.

The face of Elrond was ageless, neither old nor young, though in it was written the memory of many things both glad and sorrowful. His hair was dark as the shadows of twilight, and upon it was set a circlet of silver; his eyes were grey as a clear evening, and in them was a light like the light of stars. Venerable he seemed as a king crowned with many winters, and yet hale as a tried warrior in the fulness of his strength. He was the Lord of Rivendell and mighty among both Elves and Men.

In the middle of the table, against the woven cloths upon the wall, there was a chair under a canopy, and there sat a lady fair to look upon, and so like was she in form of womanhood to Elrond that Frodo guessed that she was one of his close kindred. Young she was and yet not so. The braids of her dark hair were touched by no frost; her white arms and clear face were flawless and smooth, and the light of stars was in her bright eyes, grey as a cloudless night; yet queenly she looked, and thought and knowledge were in her glance, as of one who has known many things that the years bring. Above her brow her head was covered with a cap of silver lace netted with small gems, glittering white; but her soft grey raiment had no ornament save a girdle of leaves wrought in silver.



Galadriel and Celeborn:


Quote

Very tall they were, and the Lady no less tall than the Lord; and they were grave and beautiful. They were clad wholly in white; and the hair of the Lady was of deep gold, and the hair of the Lord Celeborn was of silver long and bright; but no sign of age was upon them, unless it were in the depths of their eyes; for these were keen as lances in the starlight, and yet profound, the wells of deep memory.


Gimli is of course very impressed by Galadriel, and it becomes (I think) a bit of a running gag that he wants to defend by violence any real or perceived insult to her. But as I see it, the point is that Galadriel is - wonderfully and unexpectedly - his *friend*. She has understood him in a deep and powerful way, and he's marked by that (and perhaps also the reaction to any prejudice against elves he may have had).

Eowyn and Aragorn see each other:


Quote

The woman turned and went slowly into the house. As she passed the doors she turned and looked back. Grave and thoughtful was her glance, as she looked on the king with cool pity in her eyes. Very fair was her face, and her long hair was like a river of gold. Slender and tall she was in her white robe girt with silver; but strong she seemed and stern as steel, a daughter of kings. Thus Aragorn for the first time in the full light of day beheld Éowyn, Lady of Rohan, and thought her fair, fair and cold, like a morning of pale spring that is not yet come to womanhood.


And she now was suddenly aware of him: tall heir of kings, wise with many winters, greycloaked, hiding a power that yet she felt.


I really like this as a piece of writing - I admire how Tolkien swings the camera around. Or more than that really - I think we get Eowyn *as percieved by Aragorn*, then immediately *Aragorn as perceived by Eowyn*. I don't think there's a neutral narrator or camera observing here. What I notice here is the character assessment - as I read it Aragorn percieves both Eowyn' strength and sadness and feels mostly pity (He's immediately got the 'so fair, so desperate' picture that stikes Merry on the battlefield). In return, Eowyn is attracted by Aragorn's power and mystery. That will, of course, have a bearing on how their relationship pans out. In addition, reading this bit I feel (and I suppose that I'm meant to feel) the tingle of romantic possibilities between the two of them. I believe that's a red herring, but a deliberate and important one. Lastly, although one can read it in other ways, I get the idea that Aragorn's appraisal of Eowyn might have been something she notices - and appraises him right back, not minding whether he notices.

Eomer and Aragorn:
Now for contrast, here's how we meet Eowyn's brother Eomer - first seen as part of his troop, then as he steps forward:


Quote
The Men that rode them matched them well: tall and long-limbed; their hair, flaxen-pale, flowed under their light helms, and streamed in long braids behind them; their faces were stern and keen. In their hands were tall spears of ash, painted shields were slung at their backs, long swords were at their belts, their burnished shirts of mail hung down upon their knees.

...Then one rode forward, a tall man, taller than all the rest; from his helm as a crest a white horsetail flowed.


If I remember it is Tom Shippey who points out that the horsetail is called 'a panache', which is certainly appropriate for Eomer. Otherwise so far he's one of a fine body of men.

We don't see an Eomer's-eye view of Aragorn. We do see the dramatic moment which I think completely wins Eomer over, but it's more from the POV of Aragorn's companions:


Quote
Aragorn threw back his cloak. The elven-sheath glittered as he grasped it, and the bright blade of Andúril shone like a sudden flame as he swept it out. ‘Elendil!’ he cried. ‘I am Aragorn son of Arathorn, and am called Elessar, the Elfstone, Dúnadan, the heir of Isildur Elendil’s son of Gondor. Here is the Sword that was Broken and is forged again! Will you aid me or thwart me? Choose swiftly!’
Gimli and Legolas looked at their companion in amazement, for they had not seen him in this mood before. He seemed to have grown in stature while Éomer had shrunk; and in his living face they caught a brief vision of the power and majesty of the kings of stone. For a moment it seemed to the eyes of Legolas that a white flame flickered on the brows of Aragorn like a shining crown. Éomer stepped back and a look of awe was in his face. He cast down his proud eyes.


When the war is over Eomer says to Aragorn 'Since the day when you rose before me out of the green grass of the downs I have loved you, and that love shall not fail.' I suspect this is the moment he's talking about.

~~~~~~
Where's that old read-through discussion?
A wonderful list of links to previous chapters in the 2014-2016 LOTR read-through (and to previous read-throughs) is curated by our very own 'squire' here http://users.bestweb.net/...-SixthDiscussion.htm


CuriousG
Half-elven


Jun 27 2018, 5:11pm

Post #2 of 28 (4463 views)
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Quick reply now, more later [In reply to] Can't Post

This Ent is being hasty since I'm at work, but reminded me of this article on love at first sight in Tolkien.

Main point of the article is:

Quote
My theory is that the tendency for elves to experience this “love at first sight” feeling is due to their perceptive nature (no, for real, hear me out.) In “Laws and Customs Among the Eldar”, when talking about the lack of elvish extramarital relationships, Tolkien says: “Guile or trickery in this matter was scarcely possible, for the Eldar can read at once in the eyes and voice of another whether they be wed or unwed.”


And then throwing in the example of Melian and Thingol as another interracial marriage and one that was love at first sight, apparently on both sides.

I think it's about how perceptive a person is: Frodo is no Elf but unusually perceptive for a hobbit, so he sees all this ethereal beauty in Fair Ladies that his comrades either don't notice or don't comment on.


noWizardme
Half-elven


Jun 27 2018, 6:07pm

Post #3 of 28 (4455 views)
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'Such loveliness in living thing... ' [In reply to] Can't Post

My quote of Frodo seeing Elrond and Arwen goes on to


Quote
Such loveliness in living thing Frodo had never seen before nor imagined in his mind; and he was both surprised and abashed to find that he had a seat at Elrond’s table among all these folk so high and fair.


It's a bit odd maybe that Frodo calls Arwen 'a thing' - at first sight, what could be more objectifying? But what I'm getting from it is not that he sees her as less than a person, but that he sees her as not only more beautiful than the most beautiful person he's seen or imagined, but more beautiful than any other beautiful thing (summers says included, I expect).

~~~~~~
Where's that old read-through discussion?
A wonderful list of links to previous chapters in the 2014-2016 LOTR read-through (and to previous read-throughs) is curated by our very own 'squire' here http://users.bestweb.net/...-SixthDiscussion.htm


CuriousG
Half-elven


Jun 27 2018, 6:48pm

Post #4 of 28 (4452 views)
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I don’t think he’s objectifying her [In reply to] Can't Post

I can’t count the number of movies where two lovebirds have said something like “you are the loveliest thing I’ve ever set eyes on”. They’re still in love as people, not objectifying each other.

I think the context here is “Such loveliness in living form,” meaning prettier than than anything alive, ever. Or that’s my interpretation.


CuriousG
Half-elven


Jun 27 2018, 9:29pm

Post #5 of 28 (4447 views)
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There is a whole lot of “white” involved in Tolkien’s conception of beauty, isn’t there? [In reply to] Can't Post

Just about every description involves white clothing or white light of some kind (Arwen even has white arms). It’s not practical for Aragorn the traveling Ranger to wear white, but he has white light upon his brow. Éomer has a white pastache.

The secondary color of choice is gold, usually for the hair, sometimes as an accessory. It is in fact due to the prevalence of golden-haired beauties in Tolkien that my default image of Lúthien gives her golden hair, and I have to remind myself that she has dark hair.

More generally, Tolkien associates beauty with light, all the way back to the Two Trees and everywhere in between. While water (& thus Ulmo) is usually a good portent, light is guaranteed to make something good and beautiful (including things like Phials and Silmarils, but so many other things, like Gondolin swords).


(This post was edited by CuriousG on Jun 27 2018, 9:30pm)


CuriousG
Half-elven


Jun 27 2018, 10:04pm

Post #6 of 28 (4436 views)
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There’s something particularly eventful in how Aragorn sees Eowyn [In reply to] Can't Post

“Thus Aragorn for the first time in the full light of day beheld Éowyn, Lady of Rohan”

What’s with the “for the first time” and “in the full light of day”? Has she been hidden in a box before this, or did she just emerge from a cocoon? I’m being silly, of course, but Tolkien really hits the language hard here, as if she is a debutante of some kind. Is everyone in Rohan used to looking at her? “There goes Eowyn...again.”

I suppose that’s to build up the sense of sexual tension between them, that if it weren’t for Arwen, his tongue might be hanging out and he’d be flexing his biceps over this newfound beauty.

Yet to me she seems melancholy and remote at this point in the story, not attractive. I think I found her more attractive in the Houses of Healing when she still wasn’t on her best behavior, but the give & take between her and Faramir made her seem more seductive.


noWizardme
Half-elven


Jun 28 2018, 9:41am

Post #7 of 28 (4409 views)
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I think it is well-written [In reply to] Can't Post

For starters this is of course the first time Aragorn has seen Eowyn. Personally I don't imagine that she's been locked up inside the Hall for years and nobody has seen her. It's presumably also the first time Legolas or Gimli have seen her, but I think we get Aragorn's reactions partly because he and Eowyn will interact, and partly because he's a perceptive fellow.

It's also been managed that they've been in the gloomy hall, in which she was noted only as a woman clad in white. Now they've moved into the light, allowing a much clearer mutual appraisal, but also moving with the symbolism of the chapter - Theoden's recovery from mental or spiritual darkness. It gives Eowyn a very dramatic entrance, though one that appears to be unintentional on her part.


I'm also finding it interesting how little Tolkien does to tell us that Eowyn is pretty or sexy or whatever. These are Aragorn's observations:

Grave
thoughtful
cool pity in her eyes.
Very fair was her face, and her long hair was like a river of gold. Slender and tall she was in her white robe girt with silver;
strong
stern as steel,
a daughter of kings
fair, fair and cold, like a morning of pale spring that is not yet come to womanhood.


So we get a sentence and a half about her physical appearance ("Very fair was her face, and her long hair was like a river of gold. Slender and tall she was in her white robe girt with silver;"). But it's ambiguous - Aragorn doesn't know who this is, and the clothes and hair are very obvious clues to her status. Long hair implies time to care for it, and I believe it was a legally protected badge of status in Viking society, for example*. White cloth was very expensive to make and care for; silver belts probably weren't cheap.

I'm thinking about that old chestnut about writing - 'show don't tell'. I'm noticing that Tolkien is putting his effort into showing us what Eowyn is like as a character - I think it's only the repeated word 'fair' that tells us she's pretty.

I'm also thinking that Tolkien has introduced her in a way that made me assume that !!a major character has appeared!!. So I wonder - to what extent does this rely on the reader's experience of other tales - 'a new female major character who is being sized up by the protagonist must be really pretty and they must fancy each other, no'? I suspect that is another reason that we get Aragorn's POV here - to promote that reaction.

--

*Some years ago the NoWiz family paid a visit to 'Yorvik' a museum of York as a Viking City. One of the presenters had us sort ourselves according to hair-length, and Wizkid#2, with at that time long plaits, was very gratified to find herself in the elite. She wasn't so keen on the idea of using horse urine as a haircare product though (bleaches hair to a fashionable blonde, and might help you de-louse in a society where that was a constant problem).
But helping small daughters with the care of long hair is a tiring job.....

~~~~~~
Where's that old read-through discussion?
A wonderful list of links to previous chapters in the 2014-2016 LOTR read-through (and to previous read-throughs) is curated by our very own 'squire' here http://users.bestweb.net/...-SixthDiscussion.htm

(This post was edited by noWizardme on Jun 28 2018, 9:42am)


noWizardme
Half-elven


Jun 28 2018, 10:37am

Post #8 of 28 (4407 views)
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Yes, but he doesn't get too lazy about it [In reply to] Can't Post

I think you're right - white, light, and goodness go together thematically, and conversely we get The Black Riders and The Black Speech.

The elves have 'a virtuous glow' - they seem to give off a pale light, which Frodo also does at times, Sam thinks. Perhaps that adds to the whiteness.

But Tolkien doesn't let it become a consistent system allowing characters to have a team strip - Saruman is The White and Wormtongue is pale. Shelob is partly pale and luminous. But none of those are recommendations.

~~~~~~
Where's that old read-through discussion?
A wonderful list of links to previous chapters in the 2014-2016 LOTR read-through (and to previous read-throughs) is curated by our very own 'squire' here http://users.bestweb.net/...-SixthDiscussion.htm


noWizardme
Half-elven


Jun 28 2018, 11:12am

Post #9 of 28 (4404 views)
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Goldberry's colour palette is different I notice [In reply to] Can't Post

...as may befit her (she's no elf, and isn't anything to do with the Ring and the struggle for it, as far as I can work out).

Here are the colour terms used:

"long yellow hair
her gown was green, green as young reeds, shot with silver like beads of dew;
her belt was of gold, shaped like a chain of flag-lilies set with the pale-blue eyes of forget-me-nots.
in wide vessels of green and brown earthenware, white water-lilies were floating

a fair young elf-queen clad in living flowers."

So long yellow hair (check) but white figures only incidentally, and the rest is the colour palette of (say) an Oxfordshire riverbank https://fromfourlanes.wordpress.com/...0/10-september-2016/ (the flag lilies have gone over in this picture)

If I remember correctly, the same colours pervade Goldberry and Tom's house, and the whole chapter.

~~~~~~
Where's that old read-through discussion?
A wonderful list of links to previous chapters in the 2014-2016 LOTR read-through (and to previous read-throughs) is curated by our very own 'squire' here http://users.bestweb.net/...-SixthDiscussion.htm


CuriousG
Half-elven


Jun 28 2018, 12:13pm

Post #10 of 28 (4405 views)
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Tolkien loves describing hair, but not other body parts [In reply to] Can't Post

He likes saying if people are tall or lean/fat too.

But he never says someone has high cheekbones, or a weak chin, or a dainty nose, or big bosoms, a barrel chest, sinewy arms, a gimpy leg, etc. Nor does he even mention standout features, such as “Boromir had a long scar across his nose from an old battle” or “Eowyn had a beauty mark (i.e., mole) drawing attention to her right eye.” No one even has freckles! (Reading ahead in The Hobbit, some dwarves have longer noses than others, but that’s in the context of helping them breathe while they are wrapped up by the spiders.)

Instead he resorts to evocative images such as Eowyn having “cool pity in her eyes.” That’s pretty easy to conjure up and makes an impression on the reader.

I think using lofty imagery rather than literal descriptions means a reader can’t help but imagine Eowyn as beautiful, and looking like other beautiful women one has encountered in life, without being able to specifically say who. Does Eowyn look like Julia Roberts or a Baywatch Babe or Kim Kardashian, etc? Who knows? She looks like whoever you think is pretty, sad, aristocratic, and remote.


CuriousG
Half-elven


Jun 28 2018, 12:28pm

Post #11 of 28 (4401 views)
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True [In reply to] Can't Post

Black: I can remember on 1st read how shocked I was that the Minas Tirith guards had a lot of black in their livery—I was afraid Pippin was in a city of evil men, because surely black meant evil. And Faramir’s staff gifts to Frodo & Sam are from a black wood that nevertheless has some virtue on it.

White: in addition to your examples, when Frodo puts on the Ring at Weathertop, the “Black Riders” appear pale, white, and ghastly. And in the Barrow-down, his friends are arrayed in white and gold in what is definitely NOT a haven of good, nice people. And doesn’t Minas Morgul have sickly white flowers?

He messes around with the black/white convention often enough to keep us off our guard, which I think is a writer doing their job.

Though not to quibble about Saruman, but as The White he was head of the White Council, and he wasn’t bad at first. When he did go bad, he had contempt for white and turned his garments into a flutter of many colors. Then when Gandalf is resurrected, he comes back not as a Blue Wizard (Dang!) but as The White and even says he is Saruman as he should have been.

All of which leads me to conclude that Sauron wears white underwear, because he wasn’t always evil, and there’s a 1% chance he’ll become good again. :) (Look, if you can’t *prove* from textual evidence that his underwear was black, then I just win by default.)


CuriousG
Half-elven


Jun 28 2018, 1:03pm

Post #12 of 28 (4402 views)
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Beauty, love, awe, and leadership [In reply to] Can't Post

You opened so many worms with this post that I’m chasing worms in all directions all week. :)

Men love (platonically) Aragorn and Faramir, and they’re not afraid to say so. It’s due to their charisma and competent leadership styles. (Denethor may have a high leadership position, but definitely lacks charisma, and the masses don’t love him.)

But contrast that with Galadriel, queen in all but title and a great leader. The love for her is individual, on the part of the hobbits and Gimli, because of how she singled them out for rather intimate interactions. I’m not sure there’s anything to pulll from the that other than different people, different reactions, but it might be due to gender.


noWizardme
Half-elven


Jun 28 2018, 1:56pm

Post #13 of 28 (4393 views)
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Saruman's underwear [In reply to] Can't Post

"White fronts", no doubt (do people wear 'Y-fronts' in the US - underwear with a quick-access arrangement of flaps at the front, shaped like an upside-down Y).

Yes, he's 'The White' before he goes bad, but he does keep 'the white hand' as his badge. So that's another one for white isn't simplistically good.

~~~~~~
Where's that old read-through discussion?
A wonderful list of links to previous chapters in the 2014-2016 LOTR read-through (and to previous read-throughs) is curated by our very own 'squire' here http://users.bestweb.net/...-SixthDiscussion.htm


noWizardme
Half-elven


Jun 28 2018, 2:18pm

Post #14 of 28 (4394 views)
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I'm not sure they're poles apart [In reply to] Can't Post

Aragorn has his Royal Charisma thing, which he shows Eomer and which Eowyn senses ('...greycloaked, hiding a power that yet she felt').

But he's also quite capable of inspiring individual love - Legolas says he'll carry on the the Last Battle 'for the [honour of] the folk of the Great Wood... and for the love of the Lord of the White Tree'.

Conversely, Galadriel can outline a possible future for Frodo in which all would love her and despair (because, I think, she would no longer be capable for loving anyone back).

And frosty-morning Eowyn? When Hama (who I see as spokesman for the sensible folk of Rohan) wants the home front to be commanded by someone from the House of Eorl he says 'There is Éowyn, daughter of Éomund, his sister. She is fearless and high-hearted. All love her.' I'm seeing that as a vote for Eowyn's charisma and competent leadership.

~~~~~~
Where's that old read-through discussion?
A wonderful list of links to previous chapters in the 2014-2016 LOTR read-through (and to previous read-throughs) is curated by our very own 'squire' here http://users.bestweb.net/...-SixthDiscussion.htm


noWizardme
Half-elven


Jun 28 2018, 2:41pm

Post #15 of 28 (4386 views)
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I think a lot of Tolkien's art is tricking the reader into doing the work [In reply to] Can't Post

Maybe that's generally true - a few well-chosen telling details achieve more than many paragraphs.

Compare:


Quote
My name’s Bond, James Bond. I’m the world’s authority on giving up smoking. I do it constantly. You’re lucky I happen to be handy.’

The girl looked him up and down. He was a man she hadn’t seen before in Nassau. He was about six feet tall and somewhere in his middle thirties. He had dark, rather cruel good looks and very clear blue-grey eyes that were now observing her inspection sardonically. A scar down his right cheek showed pale against a tan so mild that he must have only recently come to the island. He was wearing a very dark blue lightweight single-breasted suit over a cream silk shirt and a black knitted silk tie. Despite the heat, he looked cool and clean, and his only concession to the tropics appeared to be the black saddle-stitched sandals on his bare feet.

It was an obvious attempt at a pick-up. He had an exciting face, and authority. She decided to go along. But she wasn’t going to make it easy. She said coldly, ‘All right. Tell me.

Thunderball, by Ian Flemming


For me, not much would be lost if that middle paragraph was just deleted. I get a bit lost in the clothes (though of course it might be that the clothes give hints of character than I'm not picking up. Bond's appraisal of 'The Girl' (an interesting thing to call her since he knows her name, and the narrative has been observing her since the beginning of the chapter) is a similar top-to-toe sweep of her costume, after which he begins to speculate about what she would be like in bed.

~~~~~~
Where's that old read-through discussion?
A wonderful list of links to previous chapters in the 2014-2016 LOTR read-through (and to previous read-throughs) is curated by our very own 'squire' here http://users.bestweb.net/...-SixthDiscussion.htm


noWizardme
Half-elven


Jun 28 2018, 2:51pm

Post #16 of 28 (4387 views)
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Deja viewed [In reply to] Can't Post

To contrast to how Aragorn and Eowyn meet, how about John Carter first sees Dejah Thoris (from Edgar Rice-Burroughs' Princess of Mars, the first of his Barsoom stories):


Quote
And the sight which met my eyes was that of a slender, girlish figure, similar in every detail to the earthly women of my past life. She did not see me at first, but just as she was disappearing through the portal of the building which was to be her prison she turned, and her eyes met mine. Her face was oval and beautiful in the extreme, her every feature was finely chiseled and exquisite, her eyes large and lustrous and her head surmounted by a mass of coal black, waving hair, caught loosely into a strange yet becoming coiffure. Her skin was of a light reddish copper color, against which the crimson glow of her cheeks and the ruby of her beautifully molded lips shone with a strangely enhancing effect.

She was as destitute of clothes as the green Martians who accompanied her; indeed, save for her highly wrought ornaments she was entirely naked, nor could any apparel have enhanced the beauty of her perfect and symmetrical figure.

A Princess of Mars by Edgar Rice-Burroughs, CHAPTER VIII A FAIR CAPTIVE FROM THE SKY

http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~rgs/pmars-table.html


I'm not really getting that Dejah is a brave and resourceful person who maintaining her dignity despite having been captured, are you? I think that this is more what is called 'the male gaze'. I don't think Tolkien does that much.

~~~~~~
Where's that old read-through discussion?
A wonderful list of links to previous chapters in the 2014-2016 LOTR read-through (and to previous read-throughs) is curated by our very own 'squire' here http://users.bestweb.net/...-SixthDiscussion.htm

(This post was edited by noWizardme on Jun 28 2018, 3:00pm)


noWizardme
Half-elven


Jun 28 2018, 4:08pm

Post #17 of 28 (4381 views)
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Plenty of worms left :) [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
You opened so many worms with this post that I’m chasing worms in all directions all week. :)


If I were a Diner, I'd be offering a 'Bottomless Can Of Worms'.

~~~~~~
Where's that old read-through discussion?
A wonderful list of links to previous chapters in the 2014-2016 LOTR read-through (and to previous read-throughs) is curated by our very own 'squire' here http://users.bestweb.net/...-SixthDiscussion.htm


InTheChair
Rohan

Jun 28 2018, 5:42pm

Post #18 of 28 (4381 views)
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A small sidestep to ask something that stuck out when reading this [In reply to] Can't Post

No directly related to the topic, but this description of Glorfindel


Quote
Glorfindel was tall and straight; his hair was of shining gold, his face fair and young and fearless and full of joy;


If one takes into account the later theories that Glorfindel may have been the same character as in the Silmarillion, then he is the oldest character in Rivendell, and if so does the young face fit in here?

It seems that it used to contrast with Elrond whose description comes just after, but I wonder if it is in accordance with the later concepts of the character and if so why?


CuriousG
Half-elven


Jun 28 2018, 7:12pm

Post #19 of 28 (4363 views)
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I was forgetting Haldir, so you're right about them not being so different [In reply to] Can't Post

Beregond has great love for Faramir as a leader, even though Faramir doesn't know him as an individual.

Haldir clearly reveres his Lord & Lady in the same vein, and I doubt Galadriel knows his name.

But to circle back on Aragorn's charisma: why is it that Eomer falls in love with him at first sight, emerging by surprise in Rohan's grassy fields, whereas the four hobbits meet Strider in Bree and all feel quite skeptical of him, particularly Sam, who doubted his character all the way to Rivendell. Is this plot-driven: Aragorn must appear as the rustic, mysterious Ranger of ill-repute early on to cultivate a sense of suspense about his true motives? Then by the time he hits Rohan, we as readers know him only too well, so we wouldn't identify with characters being suspicious of him. Instead, we're being swept along with the large story arc of fate taking him towards the throne of Gondor as the rightful heir, so naturally he should impress new characters a great-leader-in-waiting?

Or is it racial? Shire hobbits have little contact with Men and are more likely to distrust them, whereas Eomer seems to see in Aragorn a greater version of himself, leading to a sort of man-crush.


(This post was edited by CuriousG on Jun 28 2018, 7:12pm)


CuriousG
Half-elven


Jun 28 2018, 7:55pm

Post #20 of 28 (4353 views)
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PS on Hobbits, Men, trust, charisma [In reply to] Can't Post

Sam never seems to trust anyone, but contrast Frodo’s initial suspicion of Strider in Bree with his very quick acceptance of Faramir in Ithilien, where it was Faramir who was suspicious of him instead. Frodo spilled all the beans to him later that night in Henneth Annun. Was that because:
1. Frodo is more worldly now and better at figuring out whom he can trust?
2. Frodo was just tired and foolish?
3. Faramir’s charisma weakened Frodo’s defenses?
4. Other?


Petty Dwarf
Bree


Jun 29 2018, 9:18pm

Post #21 of 28 (4275 views)
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On Aragorn, there... [In reply to] Can't Post

When Eomer first meets Aragorn, it's during the day, out in the open, and Aragorn is keeping company with an Elf.

When the hobbits first meet him, it's at night, he's alone and being cryptic, and has just dragged Frodo into a dark corner for a word alone.

First impressions are important.

"No words were laid on stream or stone
When Durin woke and walked alone."


noWizardme
Half-elven


Jul 1 2018, 7:24am

Post #22 of 28 (4205 views)
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Wouldn’t Glorfindel be the eldest of the 3 anyway? [In reply to] Can't Post

Just from LOTR it’s clear he must have been part of the Noldor migration back to Middle-earth. That seems established whether or not Tolkien had yet decided that this is The Glorfindel, of his Gondolin story.

Actually: if he were that Glorfindel, wouldn’t his body be younger (being a reincarnation)?

Either way, I’m reading it as part of the elvish mystery Frodo is presented with: elves look young if you go by body, but there’s something much older behind the eyes.

Glorfindel strikes me as a fairly carefree Galahad- like character. Maybe Knight-erranting keeps you younger than politics?

But personally I see it as intended to be a mystery- something marvellous and not fully comprehended - rather than a puzzle that can be solved.

~~~~~~
Where's that old read-through discussion?
A wonderful list of links to previous chapters in the 2014-2016 LOTR read-through (and to previous read-throughs) is curated by our very own 'squire' here http://users.bestweb.net/...-SixthDiscussion.htm


InTheChair
Rohan

Jul 1 2018, 8:20am

Post #23 of 28 (4199 views)
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Actually: if he were that Glorfindel, wouldn’t his body be younger (being a reincarnation)? [In reply to] Can't Post

That is one possible way to consider his youthful impression. At least if we accept the idea of Elvish re-birth.

There won't be any definitive answer here of course. I was mostly interested to speculate if Tolkien would have written the description differently if the idea of them beeing the same had already been in his mind at the time.


noWizardme
Half-elven


Jul 1 2018, 10:32am

Post #24 of 28 (4190 views)
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Legolas is an interesting case [In reply to] Can't Post

The only thing described about him initially is his costume:


Quote
There was also a strange Elf clad in green and brown, Legolas, a messenger from his father, Thranduil, the King of the Elves of Northern Mirkwood.



Even Tolkien's go-to elvish adjective 'fair' has to wait for Legolas' first contribution to the Council of Elrond:


Quote
Alas! alas!’ cried Legolas, and in his fair Elvish face there was great distress.


I don't recall getting much direct description later (though of course I might be forgetting something!) But I don't feel a lack when I read the story.


Perhaps, like Glorfindel, Legolas is to be judged by his actions?

~~~~~~
Where's that old read-through discussion?
A wonderful list of links to previous chapters in the 2014-2016 LOTR read-through (and to previous read-throughs) is curated by our very own 'squire' here http://users.bestweb.net/...-SixthDiscussion.htm


uncle Iorlas
Rohan


Jul 2 2018, 5:49am

Post #25 of 28 (4172 views)
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mostly watching this one with popcorn [In reply to] Can't Post

This is interesting territory, partly because--to my mind--it edges into some of the things Tolkien does less well. His is a very chaste oeuvre, he has little to say about romance, for one thing. But his habitual reliance on height and pale "fairness" as markers of both beauty and class is connected to his deep familiarity with old Germanic poetry, and with the whole uneasy matter of his treatment of race. Not "race" as in elves and dwarves, but Numenoreans, Rohirrim, Dunlendings, Druedain, Southrons, Easterlings, that sort of thing. The word "swarthy" is the opposite telltale descriptor to "fair" in this book, and with one exception (I believe it is said of the small Lossarnach delegation to the muster of Minas Tirith) it always refers to a people who are suspected or presumed to be dubious or dangerous.

Not to open that additional can of worms, I'm just noting that you're within a stone's throw of it.

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