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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Main:
Tolkiens Views on Creation and Evolution

Tolkien R.J.J
Bree


Jun 6, 11:56am

Post #1 of 18 (5304 views)
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Tolkiens Views on Creation and Evolution Can't Post

As a christian and a creationist I have always been interested in Tolkien's views on creation and evolution. As far as i am aware no in depth scholarly work has been done on his views on this issue. My first sources on him that effected my thoughts on his stance were

-The Letters of J.R.R Tolkien edited by Humphrey Carpenter with the assistance of Christopher Tolkien Houghton Mifflin 2000
-J.R.R Tolkien The Authorized Biography Humphrey carpenter Houghton Mifflin company NY 2000
-The Inklings C.S Lewis J.R.R Tolkien, Charles Williams and their friends. Humphrey Carpenter Harper Collins Publishers 2006
-Ents, Elves, and Eriador the Environmental Vision of J.R.R Tolkien by Matthew Dickerson and Jonathan Evans Kentucky University press 2006.
-The Gospel according to Tolkien visions of the kingdom in middle earth by Ralph C. Wood Westminster John Knox Press 2003
-Finding God in the lord of the rings by Kurt Bruner and Jim Ware Salt river 2001


After reading these I was sure he was a biblical creationist as he believed in a literal Adam and eve and garden of Eden like me and the majority of Catholics through history. When I read the sillmarillion I saw the biblical account of literal creation all over the place further cementing my views. However I new he was also greatly influenced by C.S Lewis on this issue as well. So I purchased this book on Lewis views on evolution.


https://www.amazon.com/Lewis-Anti-Darwinist-Examination-Development-Darwinism/dp/1532607733


I than reread the letters of Tolkien and it seemed he and Lewis were open to and likely accepted at various times the earth was old [not my view]. It seems now to me that they both either old earth creationist, or some form of intelligent design. It is to bad the modern creation movement did not start earlier, I would have like both Lewis and Tolkien's opinions on it, though I think they both may have held this view as well.



Does anyone have information on this subject?

“I am a Christian, that fact can be deduced from my stories.”
-J.R.R Tolkien

“I am in fact a Hobbit (in all but size). I like gardens, trees and unmechanized farmlands; I smoke a pipe, and like good plain food (unrefrigerated), but detest French cooking; I like, and even dare to wear in these dull days, ornamental waistcoats. I am fond of mushrooms (out of a field); have a very simple sense of humour (which even my appreciative critics find tiresome); I go to bed late and get up late.”
J.R.R Tolkien

“Tolkien was a lifelong enemy of big government in every form, not just the harsher forms we find in soviet communism, German Nazism, or Italian fascism, but also as it manifested itself in British democratic socialism and the mongol state capitalism in other parts of the west.”
-Jonathan Witt and Jay W The Hobbit Party: The vision of freedom that Tolkien got and the west forgot


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Jun 6, 1:40pm

Post #2 of 18 (5258 views)
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My own perspective. [In reply to] Can't Post

All I can really offer is my own view on the subject. I was raised Roman Catholic, but as a child who loved dinosaurs and prehistory, I quickly adopted the philosophy of deific evolution. As my religious views shifted into agnosticism the 'deific' part fell by the wayside.

I do feel obligated to point out that the Catholic Church has even had Popes who seem to acknowledge the view of an Old Earth, an even older Universe, and the process of evolution. Even if you believe in a Creator, can you be so certain that astronomy, physics and genetics can't explain the process by which He (or She) brought everything into existence?

"I may be on the side of the angels, but do not think for one second that I am one of them." - Sherlock

(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Jun 6, 1:41pm)


Tolkien R.J.J
Bree


Jun 6, 3:15pm

Post #3 of 18 (5242 views)
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Thanks my history [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
All I can really offer is my own view on the subject. I was raised Roman Catholic, but as a child who loved dinosaurs and prehistory, I quickly adopted the philosophy of deific evolution. As my religious views shifted into agnosticism the 'deific' part fell by the wayside.

I do feel obligated to point out that the Catholic Church has even had Popes who seem to acknowledge the view of an Old Earth, an even older Universe, and the process of evolution. Even if you believe in a Creator, can you be so certain that astronomy, physics and genetics can't explain the process by which He (or She) brought everything into existence?



Thanks for sharing. I guess my view is i was raised catholic [ i am protestant today] , but also to believe in evolution through education and documentaries etc this caused me to become atheistic and reject the bible based on "science." I was than challenged to not believe as i wanted or wished and challenge what i thought was true. 10 years and hundreds of debates, journals, magazines, seminars, books etc later, i am a biblical creationist who rejects the faith that is contrary to science called evolution.


Yes some popes and Catholics accept theistic evolution. I do not because the bible does not. If the bible got it wrong than the bible is wrong, and no need to try and mold the two together. But more important to this thread, what did Tolkien believe?

As for your question I agree observable science can tell us much of our history. This is why I have rejected evolution, it is refuted by science in so many ways. Yet what we dont often understand on either side, is that sciences only deal with the observable here and now, repeatable. While the debate over creation vs evolution is historical on things of the past that are outside of science.


Thanks for your post.

“I am a Christian, that fact can be deduced from my stories.”
-J.R.R Tolkien

“I am in fact a Hobbit (in all but size). I like gardens, trees and unmechanized farmlands; I smoke a pipe, and like good plain food (unrefrigerated), but detest French cooking; I like, and even dare to wear in these dull days, ornamental waistcoats. I am fond of mushrooms (out of a field); have a very simple sense of humour (which even my appreciative critics find tiresome); I go to bed late and get up late.”
J.R.R Tolkien

“Tolkien was a lifelong enemy of big government in every form, not just the harsher forms we find in soviet communism, German Nazism, or Italian fascism, but also as it manifested itself in British democratic socialism and the mongol state capitalism in other parts of the west.”
-Jonathan Witt and Jay W The Hobbit Party: The vision of freedom that Tolkien got and the west forgot


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Jun 6, 3:41pm

Post #4 of 18 (5234 views)
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I'm all for NOT reviving the old debate. [In reply to] Can't Post

I fully agree that this is not the place for the Science vs. Religion conversation and I wasn't trying to convince anyone to change their position. I think it is obvious that I do have strong views on the matter. If I came on too strong, I apologize. Enough said.

Tolkien does seem to have made some concessions to natural history over the years. One was the suggestion that the winged, fell beasts of the Nazgûl might have been creatures of an earlier age. Another was throwing some measure of doubt at the Númenórean view that the Earth was flat before the Change of the World that drowned the isle of Westernesse--a case of second thoughts over his original account. It can be argued that a great deal of time passed before the official beginning of the First Age, thousands if not millions of years to represent the Spring of Arda and the Sleep of Yavanna. There's even some question about Tolkien's final thoughts about the rising of the Sun and Moon. in the context of the cosmology of Middle-earth. He seemed to realize that some elements of his invented mythology were problematic when examined rationally (though, really, how much myth does stand up to rational examination?).

I will add that Eru creating the Universe via the Song of the Valar is perhaps the most beautiful Creation Story that I have ever encountered.

"I may be on the side of the angels, but do not think for one second that I am one of them." - Sherlock

(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Jun 6, 3:55pm)


Tolkien R.J.J
Bree


Jun 6, 4:25pm

Post #5 of 18 (5215 views)
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Agreed This is a Tolkien thread after all lol [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
I fully agree that this is not the place for the Science vs. Religion conversation and I wasn't trying to convince anyone to change their position. I think it is obvious that I do have strong views on the matter. If I came on too strong, I apologize. Enough said.

Tolkien does seem to have made some concessions to natural history over the years. One was the suggestion that the winged, fell beasts of the Nazgûl might have been creatures of an earlier age. Another was throwing some measure of doubt at the Númenórean view that the Earth was flat before the Change of the World that drowned the isle of Westernesse--a case of second thoughts over his original account. It can be argued that a great deal of time passed before the official beginning of the First Age, thousands if not millions of years to represent the Spring of Arda and the Sleep of Yavanna. There's even some question about Tolkien's final thoughts about the rising of the Sun and Moon. in the context of the cosmology of Middle-earth. He seemed to realize that some elements of his invented mythology were problematic when examined rationally (though, really, how much myth does stand up to rational examination?).

I will add that Eru creating the Universe via the Song of the Valar is perhaps the most beautiful Creation Story that I have ever encountered.


Very true, science vs evolution and evolutionist lack of willingness to give "concessions" to observable science is another thread altogether. It is one I have done many times and if you would like to pm me, i can point you to a proper forum for that discussion. I have strong views as well as you can see and i apologize if it caused any discomfort.

I remember the nazgul being and it was one of the instances where it seemed he accepted the uniformtarnism [old earth] interpretation of the past. As for the Númenórean and a flat earth I am not sure what that has to do with the topic as the catholic church never taught a flat earth and it was known to be round in the medieval time period, further the flat earth society today are evolutionist who believe in an old earth.

I agree on the "great amount of time passed" in middle earth and these kind of things make me think he might have been an old earth creationist. In fact he said our time today was somewhat like 6,000 years after the end of the third age if i remember correct. Much more might have passed in between the first and second ages or within those ages. I think the early sillmarillion was very "northern" in its mythology, he began to change that to fit with his version of middle earth as actual history on this earth later on in life.


Yes very similar to the way God spoke creation into existence in the bible.

“I am a Christian, that fact can be deduced from my stories.”
-J.R.R Tolkien

“I am in fact a Hobbit (in all but size). I like gardens, trees and unmechanized farmlands; I smoke a pipe, and like good plain food (unrefrigerated), but detest French cooking; I like, and even dare to wear in these dull days, ornamental waistcoats. I am fond of mushrooms (out of a field); have a very simple sense of humour (which even my appreciative critics find tiresome); I go to bed late and get up late.”
J.R.R Tolkien

“Tolkien was a lifelong enemy of big government in every form, not just the harsher forms we find in soviet communism, German Nazism, or Italian fascism, but also as it manifested itself in British democratic socialism and the mongol state capitalism in other parts of the west.”
-Jonathan Witt and Jay W The Hobbit Party: The vision of freedom that Tolkien got and the west forgot


(This post was edited by Tolkien R.J.J on Jun 6, 4:29pm)


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Jun 6, 4:34pm

Post #6 of 18 (5207 views)
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The End of the Third Age [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
I agree on the "great amount of time passed" in middle earth and these kind of things make me think he might have been an old earth creationist. In fact he said our time today was somewhat like 6,000 years after the end of the third age if i remember correct. Much more might have passed in between the first and second ages or within those ages. I think the early sillmarillion was very "northern" in its mythology, he began to change that to fit with his version of middle earth as actual history on this earth later on in life.


Yes, I find it fascinating that Tolkien placed the end of the Third Age (and beginning of the Fourth) at approximately the time of the beginning of the Hebrew calendar. That also means that the transition from Middle-earth to the modern world might be represented by an event equivalent to the Great Flood of the Bible, perhaps at the end of the Fourth Age. It is hard not to see this as intentional.

"I may be on the side of the angels, but do not think for one second that I am one of them." - Sherlock


Tolkien R.J.J
Bree


Jun 6, 4:45pm

Post #7 of 18 (5201 views)
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Good thoughts [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To

In Reply To
I agree on the "great amount of time passed" in middle earth and these kind of things make me think he might have been an old earth creationist. In fact he said our time today was somewhat like 6,000 years after the end of the third age if i remember correct. Much more might have passed in between the first and second ages or within those ages. I think the early sillmarillion was very "northern" in its mythology, he began to change that to fit with his version of middle earth as actual history on this earth later on in life.


Yes, I find it fascinating that Tolkien placed the end of the Third Age (and beginning of the Fourth) at approximately the time of the beginning of the Hebrew calendar. That also means that the transition from Middle-earth to the modern world might be represented by an event equivalent to the Great Flood of the Bible, perhaps at the end of the Fourth Age. It is hard not to see this as intentional.


Yeah I think he wrote his mythology [at least in later years] as a pre history to our modern age and world. It would have been interesting to see if he had finished the fourth age and how the final transition would come about. Similar to the remaking of arda in the first two ages? or a global flood as you suggest, not sure. Dammit why did he have to go and die like that? so selfish of himWink.

“I am a Christian, that fact can be deduced from my stories.”
-J.R.R Tolkien

“I am in fact a Hobbit (in all but size). I like gardens, trees and unmechanized farmlands; I smoke a pipe, and like good plain food (unrefrigerated), but detest French cooking; I like, and even dare to wear in these dull days, ornamental waistcoats. I am fond of mushrooms (out of a field); have a very simple sense of humour (which even my appreciative critics find tiresome); I go to bed late and get up late.”
J.R.R Tolkien

“Tolkien was a lifelong enemy of big government in every form, not just the harsher forms we find in soviet communism, German Nazism, or Italian fascism, but also as it manifested itself in British democratic socialism and the mongol state capitalism in other parts of the west.”
-Jonathan Witt and Jay W The Hobbit Party: The vision of freedom that Tolkien got and the west forgot


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Jun 6, 5:02pm

Post #8 of 18 (5194 views)
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The Downfall of Middle-earth [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm not suggesting a Great Flood in the legendarium, per se, but at least some event equally catastrophic and world-altering. As a former student of geology, I know that the continents we are familiar with would have actually pre-dated the (impossible) geography of Middle-earth by many millions of years. However, there still should be a mythological explanation within Tolkien's legendarium.

"I may be on the side of the angels, but do not think for one second that I am one of them." - Sherlock

(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Jun 6, 5:03pm)


Attalus
Lorien


Jun 6, 5:59pm

Post #9 of 18 (5188 views)
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Okay... [In reply to] Can't Post

I am a Christian and believe in evolution, too. I have always thought that JRRT was referring to the Fall when he wrote about how Men first met the Eldar, referring to some ill-defined catastrophe that had lessened them. (Sorry, no refs, I haven't read that part of the Sil77 in a very long time). I agree that The Beast that was Burned was supposed to be a pterodactyl or some such. I also feel that the First Age was supposed to be paradisical before Morgoth stuck his claw in.

We are the fighting Uruk-Hai! We slew the great warrior! Well, yeah, first he killed a bunch of us and another whole lot of Mauhúr's lads, and we had to shoot enough arrows into him to drop a Mûmak. But we got him!


Tolkien R.J.J
Bree


Jun 6, 7:11pm

Post #10 of 18 (5176 views)
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I see [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
I'm not suggesting a Great Flood in the legendarium, per se, but at least some event equally catastrophic and world-altering. As a former student of geology, I know that the continents we are familiar with would have actually pre-dated the (impossible) geography of Middle-earth by many millions of years. However, there still should be a mythological explanation within Tolkien's legendarium.


oh i see. Yes it would be interesting to see what kind of world altering event he would have used it would not have been the first time. As for the age of the continents, yes assuming the Uniformitarianism explanation their age would have pre dated middle earth. However Tolkien said middle earth was relative to new england so it would have taken place as the geology within our recent past [again evolution timeline/history] and current world.


I do just wish to mention their are a great many phd geologist and professors who hold my view of the young earth. They just are not allowed in government pc schools or on CNN.

“I am a Christian, that fact can be deduced from my stories.”
-J.R.R Tolkien

“I am in fact a Hobbit (in all but size). I like gardens, trees and unmechanized farmlands; I smoke a pipe, and like good plain food (unrefrigerated), but detest French cooking; I like, and even dare to wear in these dull days, ornamental waistcoats. I am fond of mushrooms (out of a field); have a very simple sense of humour (which even my appreciative critics find tiresome); I go to bed late and get up late.”
J.R.R Tolkien

“Tolkien was a lifelong enemy of big government in every form, not just the harsher forms we find in soviet communism, German Nazism, or Italian fascism, but also as it manifested itself in British democratic socialism and the mongol state capitalism in other parts of the west.”
-Jonathan Witt and Jay W The Hobbit Party: The vision of freedom that Tolkien got and the west forgot


Tolkien R.J.J
Bree


Jun 6, 7:25pm

Post #11 of 18 (5173 views)
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the fall [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
I am a Christian and believe in evolution, too. I have always thought that JRRT was referring to the Fall when he wrote about how Men first met the Eldar, referring to some ill-defined catastrophe that had lessened them. (Sorry, no refs, I haven't read that part of the Sil77 in a very long time). I agree that The Beast that was Burned was supposed to be a pterodactyl or some such. I also feel that the First Age was supposed to be paradisical before Morgoth stuck his claw in.


In his letters Tolkien said he believed in the literal fall of man on earth and a literal eden. The fall was very impact full on the inklings writings. Their are a great many christian themes in Tolkiens writings my op has some references to some great books on those subjects such as

The Gospel according to Tolkien visions of the kingdom in middle earth by Ralph C. Wood Westminster John Knox Press 2003
https://www.christianbook.com/gospel-according-tolkien-visions-kingdom-middle/ralph-wood/9780664226107/pd/226108

and


Finding God in the lord of the rings by Kurt Bruner and Jim Ware Salt river 2001
https://www.christianbook.com/finding-god-the-lord-the-rings/kurt-bruner/9781414312798/pd/312792




The Fall From Eden and Restoration


“There cannot be any story without a fall- all stories are ultimately about the fall.”
-J .R.R Tolkien quoted in David Day The Battles of Tolkien Thunder Bay Press San Diego CA 2017

Tolkien believed strongly there had been an Eden on earth and that man’s original sin was responsible for this fallen world. The immortal Elves for all intent and purposes were men before the fall. Like the world pre fall (Garden of Eden), Lorien was without “stain,” no death, sickness or curse. The Elves represent the eternal and supernatural aspects of humanity and are the creatures most like eru(God). Elves by nature are good, but can be seduced. At the council of Elrond, Elrond says, “Nothing is evil in the beginning, even Sauron was not so.” This is a Christian understanding of evil, that God’s original creation was good, with no death or suffering and evil. The devil himself was created “good” and an angel of light. Andreth says that men were born to live everlasting in the beginning just as the bible teaches. The elves thought God’s gift to man was death, because to go on as fallen creatures in a fallen world forever would be worse. And when the men of Númenóreans  were upset over the human race dying while elves and valar did not, the immortal valar replied

“Thus you escape, and leave the world and are not bound by it, in hope or in weariness. Which of us therefore should envy the others”

And reflecting the biblical teachings in Revelations chapter 21, Andreth says, “The one [God] will himself enter into Arda, and heal men and all the marring from the beginning to the end.” Tolkien said, “Fantasy serves as “A far off gleam or echo of evangelium [good news gospel] in the real world.” In the history of Middle Earth, when Arwen dies, it says “There is her green grave, until the world is changed.” In the Hobbit it says, “The world will ultimately be “renewed.” “The world was fair, the mountains tall in elder days before the fall,” speaks Gimli in The Hobbit. Some see similarities between the highest angel Manwe, and the biblical arch angel Micheal.


Melkor’s fall was like that of Satan in the bible. Like Satan Melkor fell “From splendor, he fell through arrogance to contempt for all things save himself, a spirit wasteful and pitless. Understanding he turned subtly in perverting to his own will all that he would use, until he became a liar without shame. He began with the desire of light [creative action] but when he could not posses it for himself alone, he descended through fire and wrath into great burning, down into darkness and darkness he used most in his evil works upon arda and filled it with fear for all living things.”

Like Melkor, The biblical tempter, the angel cast out of heaven, the father of lies, the one thrown into darkness are all biblical connections. Melko’s rebellion was to increase power and glory as the biblical Satan intent was as well. Melkor forges a crown for himself and gives title “king of the world.” Melkor like Satan could not create, but only corrupt or cause marring of the once good creation.. Frodo said “The shadow that bred [the orcs] can only mock and it cannot make, not real things of its own. I don’t think it gave life to orcs, it only ruined them and twisted them”. And in the letters of Tolkien he said “Servants of the dark power, and later Sauron, neither of whom could, or would produce living things, they must be corruptions.”

“Satan promised Eve deathlessness, secret knowledge and enhanced power id she would disobey god and eat of the forbidden fruit [gen 3 4-5]. In middle earth the dark lord sauron promises much the same as he tempts the kings of Numonor to turn from the worship of Eru Ilvatar, set sail for the undying lands forbidden to them and claim the immortality he suggests is theirs by right of their greatness. Its all a lie of course and leads to their destruction. The creator, in his wisdom decrees that humans would be mortal...Tolkien refers to its tragic end as “the second fall of man.”
-Jonathan Witt and Jay W The Hobbit Party: The vision of freedom that Tolkien got and the west forgot

“I am a Christian, that fact can be deduced from my stories.”
-J.R.R Tolkien

“I am in fact a Hobbit (in all but size). I like gardens, trees and unmechanized farmlands; I smoke a pipe, and like good plain food (unrefrigerated), but detest French cooking; I like, and even dare to wear in these dull days, ornamental waistcoats. I am fond of mushrooms (out of a field); have a very simple sense of humour (which even my appreciative critics find tiresome); I go to bed late and get up late.”
J.R.R Tolkien

“Tolkien was a lifelong enemy of big government in every form, not just the harsher forms we find in soviet communism, German Nazism, or Italian fascism, but also as it manifested itself in British democratic socialism and the mongol state capitalism in other parts of the west.”
-Jonathan Witt and Jay W The Hobbit Party: The vision of freedom that Tolkien got and the west forgot


Elizabeth
Half-elven


Jun 18, 8:01am

Post #12 of 18 (4883 views)
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The Bible is a model of the relationship between Man and God. [In reply to] Can't Post

The notion that it had to be taken literally is quite modern, from the early 20th Century. Through most of the history of Judaism and Christianity the Bible had been accepted as a model for understanding the relationship between God and Man, in much the same sense as the double helix proved to be an accurate model of a DNA molecule (even though no one seriously thought there were different-color balls connected with sticks).

The concept of God as infinite in age and extent and power is consistent with what has been learned of astronomy and cosmology. The attempt to constrict Creation to a narrow, 6,000-year window is, to me, a diminishing of the truly infinite scope of God's age and power.

Tolkien's model of creation based on "music" is a brilliant attempt to construct an alternative model, at least as plausible as the one in the Bible, and in no way inconsistent with science.


Tolkien R.J.J
Bree


Jun 18, 8:51pm

Post #13 of 18 (4861 views)
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Not sure [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
The notion that it had to be taken literally is quite modern, from the early 20th Century. Through most of the history of Judaism and Christianity the Bible had been accepted as a model for understanding the relationship between God and Man, in much the same sense as the double helix proved to be an accurate model of a DNA molecule (even though no one seriously thought there were different-color balls connected with sticks).

The concept of God as infinite in age and extent and power is consistent with what has been learned of astronomy and cosmology. The attempt to constrict Creation to a narrow, 6,000-year window is, to me, a diminishing of the truly infinite scope of God's age and power.

Tolkien's model of creation based on "music" is a brilliant attempt to construct an alternative model, at least as plausible as the one in the Bible, and in no way inconsistent with science.



I would disagree as would church history. Genesis was viewed as historical almost universally until the rise of uniformitarnism and evolution.


As for how long ago he created has nothing to do with gods nature. To try and force a young earth into the narrow uniformtarnism and billions of years needed for evolution is contrary to cosmology, geology and biology.


His world is yes based on speech from the one true god, as is the bibles account. The bibles creation of course is in no way inconsistent with science unlike evolution.

“I am a Christian, that fact can be deduced from my stories.”
-J.R.R Tolkien

“I am in fact a Hobbit (in all but size). I like gardens, trees and unmechanized farmlands; I smoke a pipe, and like good plain food (unrefrigerated), but detest French cooking; I like, and even dare to wear in these dull days, ornamental waistcoats. I am fond of mushrooms (out of a field); have a very simple sense of humour (which even my appreciative critics find tiresome); I go to bed late and get up late.”
J.R.R Tolkien

“Tolkien was a lifelong enemy of big government in every form, not just the harsher forms we find in soviet communism, German Nazism, or Italian fascism, but also as it manifested itself in British democratic socialism and the mongol state capitalism in other parts of the west.”
-Jonathan Witt and Jay W The Hobbit Party: The vision of freedom that Tolkien got and the west forgot


N.E. Brigand
Half-elven


Jun 18, 10:53pm

Post #14 of 18 (4838 views)
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Eppur si muove. [In reply to] Can't Post

Tolkien presumably would have at least considered his church's position on the subject, which is summarized on this Wikipedia page: Catholic Church and evolution. The church, probably remembering their mistakes with the theories of Copernicus and Galileo, seems to have taken a cautious approach. More recent popes have indicated there is no conflict between Catholic teaching and the material aspects of evolutionary theory.

If you wish to advance your study through discussion here, I recommend pulling together some actual quotes by Tolkien into a thread and then offering your thoughts on what those quotes mean for this subject.

Treason doth neuer prosper? What's the Reason?
for if it prosper none dare call it treason.


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Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Jun 19, 2:18am

Post #15 of 18 (4822 views)
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I have to agree with Elizabeth [In reply to] Can't Post

Theologians were upset when the invention of the printing press allowed The Bible to be published in the living languages of Christian worshipers because the common folk were not trained in scholarship or theology. Portions of the holy book were, by Church-doctrine, accepted as historical reality; however, other parts of The Bible were given more metaphorical interpretation. As Elizabeth stated, many of the more literal interpretations are actually a relatively modern phenomenon. One good example of this is the Book of Revelations.

To go further into this topic would be to violate the spirit of the TORN forums, so I will stop here.

"I may be on the side of the angels, but do not think for one second that I am one of them." - Sherlock

(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Jun 19, 2:20am)


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Jun 19, 2:19am

Post #16 of 18 (4821 views)
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Bad Link [In reply to] Can't Post

Your link to Catholic Church and evolution does not work; it should now. Theistic evolutionism is pretty much the philosophy I subscribed to myself, having largely worked out my own version of it when I still identified as Catholic.

"I may be on the side of the angels, but do not think for one second that I am one of them." - Sherlock

(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Jun 19, 2:26am)


N.E. Brigand
Half-elven


Jun 19, 2:55am

Post #17 of 18 (4810 views)
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Thanks! [In reply to] Can't Post

Tolkien's views on the subject could make for an interesting discussion.

Treason doth neuer prosper? What's the Reason?
for if it prosper none dare call it treason.


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Tolkien R.J.J
Bree


Jun 19, 9:40pm

Post #18 of 18 (4726 views)
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To Lazy lol [In reply to] Can't Post


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Tolkien presumably would have at least considered his church's position on the subject, which is summarized on this Wikipedia page: Catholic Church and evolution. The church, probably remembering their mistakes with the theories of Copernicus and Galileo, seems to have taken a cautious approach. More recent popes have indicated there is no conflict between Catholic teaching and the material aspects of evolutionary theory.

If you wish to advance your study through discussion here, I recommend pulling together some actual quotes by Tolkien into a thread and then offering your thoughts on what those quotes mean for this subject.


I agree as a catholic he would of course see what the bible and church's stance said. Of course we should not trust wiki on this, how about a catholic source that uses catholic sources and historical documents/statements to get a better idea. rather than evolutionist on wiki.

http://kolbecenter.org/


As for Galileo I would highly recomned the following books.

“many vicious distortions and lies had entered the historical cannon with the seal of distinguished scholarly approval, so long as they reflect badly on the catholic church.”
-Rodney Stark Bearing False Witness Debunking Centuries of Anti-Catholic History Tempelton Press 2016

https://www.amazon.com/Bearing-False-Witness-Debunking-Anti-Catholic/dp/1599475367/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1529444357&sr=8-1&keywords=anticatholic+history

https://www.amazon.com/Real-Story-Catholic-History-Anti-Catholic/dp/1683570472/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1529444391&sr=1-1&keywords=the+real+story+of+catholic+history



I was hoping someone else had done a study on the subject, i am to lazy lol.

“I am a Christian, that fact can be deduced from my stories.”
-J.R.R Tolkien

“I am in fact a Hobbit (in all but size). I like gardens, trees and unmechanized farmlands; I smoke a pipe, and like good plain food (unrefrigerated), but detest French cooking; I like, and even dare to wear in these dull days, ornamental waistcoats. I am fond of mushrooms (out of a field); have a very simple sense of humour (which even my appreciative critics find tiresome); I go to bed late and get up late.”
J.R.R Tolkien

“Tolkien was a lifelong enemy of big government in every form, not just the harsher forms we find in soviet communism, German Nazism, or Italian fascism, but also as it manifested itself in British democratic socialism and the mongol state capitalism in other parts of the west.”
-Jonathan Witt and Jay W The Hobbit Party: The vision of freedom that Tolkien got and the west forgot

 
 

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