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Eruonen
Half-elven
May 11 2018, 3:06am
Post #1 of 9
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This line in this old WWI newsreel caught my attention - I wonder if Tolkien was aware of it
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https://youtu.be/2QRftl3vFZ4?t=150 "They shall not pass!" Hmm, Gandalf spoke a similar phrase in the singular.
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Moahunter
Rohan
May 11 2018, 8:56am
Post #2 of 9
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It was also used by La Pasionaria (Dolores Ibarruri) 19th July 1936 calling on the people of Spain to defend the Second Spanish Republic.
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Eruonen
Half-elven
May 11 2018, 1:34pm
Post #3 of 9
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It seems to have been a well known phrase of heroic action during the writing years of LOTR
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I can only assume Tolkien had heard it used and either consciously or unconsciously incorporated it. I suppose it could have come to him organically but being a WWI Vet and the usage coming to prominence it that action by the French I tend to think he rather liked it.
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Bracegirdle
Valinor
May 11 2018, 8:22pm
Post #4 of 9
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And perhaps one of Tolkien's most misquoted phrases?
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as "You cannot pass!"
‘. . . the rule of no realm is mine . . . But all worthy things that are in peril . . . those are my care. For I also am a steward. Did you not know?' Gandalf to Denethor
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Eruonen
Half-elven
May 11 2018, 9:32pm
Post #6 of 9
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"After the Germans captured Fleury on 23 June, Nivelle issued an Order of the Day which ended with the now-famous line: Ils ne passeront pas! (They shall not pass!). [8] Nivelle ordered the employment of a creeping barrage when the French made their initial counter-stroke on 24 October.[9] The artillery supporting the infantry focused more on suppressing German troops as opposed to destroying specific objects. These tactics proved effective: French troops re-took Fleury on 24 October, as well as Fort Douaumont, whose capture by the Germans on 25 February 1916 had been highly celebrated in Germany."
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squire
Half-elven
May 11 2018, 9:58pm
Post #7 of 9
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Wait, what exactly did Nivelle order?
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"Ils ne passeront pas" or "On ne passe pas"? The two previous posts have Nivelle saying both phrases, translated into English as "They shall not pass", at once. But that seems unlikely. Surely he only said it once. How could we find what he actually did say on June 23, 1916? Another source I found says he ordered his men "Vous ne les laisserrez pas passer", translated as "you shall not let them pass". According to this account, the order was quickly "shortened" by the public or the press to ... wait for it ... on ne passe pas or ils ne passeront pas! (my emphasis). Both French phrases, apparently, would be used interchangeably for the rest of the war and in popular memory down to today, and neither is what Nivelle actually said. Until we find a fourth account, anyway. Source: "They Shall Not Pass" exhibit at the National WW I Memorial, Kansas City, Mo.
squire online: RR Discussions: The Valaquenta, A Shortcut to Mushrooms, and Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit Lights! Action! Discuss on the Movie board!: 'A Journey in the Dark'. and 'Designing The Two Towers'. Archive: All the TORn Reading Room Book Discussions (including the 1st BotR Discussion!) and Footerama: "Tolkien would have LOVED it!" Dr. Squire introduces the J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia: A Reader's Diary = Forum has no new posts. Forum needs no new posts.
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Eruonen
Half-elven
May 11 2018, 10:02pm
Post #8 of 9
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"If only Nivelle were a wizard."
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"By midday, with German infiltration teams pushing hard towards Thiaumont and Fleury, the citadel at Verdun is on alert to prepare for a siege. There are two catchphrases which the French language gained from this battle. The first is Petain’s “On les aura!”, “We will get them”, from immediately after he took command. The second is issued today, as General Nivelle desperately tries to shore up the situation, to defend Fleury, to keep the enemy out of Fort Souville. After a little cleaning up for posterity’s sake, it reaches its final form. “Ils ne passeront pas!” “They shall not pass!” The French need to get the guns firing again. If only Nivelle were a wizard. As it is, here’s the map at nightfall." ^^ ;) funny the writer also is thinking of Gandalf https://makersley.com/...ouville-23-jun-1916/
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