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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
The music that plays as Bard lines the arrow up on his son's shoulder is beautiful
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OhioDude72
The Shire

Apr 30, 4:00pm

Post #1 of 27 (4700 views)
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The music that plays as Bard lines the arrow up on his son's shoulder is beautiful Can't Post

That entire sequence is epic.


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Apr 30, 4:06pm

Post #2 of 27 (4659 views)
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Yes... [In reply to] Can't Post

...though I have to ignore the implausibility of Bard's improvised ballista. That never should have worked!

Sorry, if I'm being a downer; it really is a nice scene despite my reservations.

"I may be on the side of the angels, but do not think for one second that I am one of them." - Sherlock

(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Apr 30, 4:07pm)


OhioDude72
The Shire

Apr 30, 6:12pm

Post #3 of 27 (4647 views)
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Yeah [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
...though I have to ignore the implausibility of Bard's improvised ballista. That never should have worked!

Sorry, if I'm being a downer; it really is a nice scene despite my reservations.

Do you mean the Jerry rigged bow or the implausibility of him hitting that tiny spot on the dragon?


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Apr 30, 6:37pm

Post #4 of 27 (4642 views)
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The Bow [In reply to] Can't Post

Definitely the jury-rigged bow that would have fallen apart before it could be fired, if the string didn't break first. We pretty much must accept the accuracy of Bard's shot, since he managed to strike Smaug's vulnerable spot in the book too (and that was with Smaug in the air).

"I may be on the side of the angels, but do not think for one second that I am one of them." - Sherlock

(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Apr 30, 6:38pm)


OhioDude72
The Shire

Apr 30, 7:20pm

Post #5 of 27 (4630 views)
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Yeah [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Definitely the jury-rigged bow that would have fallen apart before it could be fired, if the string didn't break first. We pretty much must accept the accuracy of Bard's shot, since he managed to strike Smaug's vulnerable spot in the book too (and that was with Smaug in the air).


Is there any behind the scenes or an interview w Jackson explaining why they went with the ground attack and involved his son?


Smaug the iron
Gondor


Apr 30, 7:36pm

Post #6 of 27 (4632 views)
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Yes I really like this scene. [In reply to] Can't Post

Howard Shore did a great job with the entire score but particularly this scene. Using Bard's Family Theme in this epic version is really emotional.


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Apr 30, 7:59pm

Post #7 of 27 (4622 views)
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On Bard vs. Smaug [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Is there any behind the scenes or an interview w Jackson explaining why they went with the ground attack and involved his son?


I think, mainly, they just liked the image of Smaug stalking Bard along the rooftops like a cat playing with a mouse. I did find something in The Hobbit: The Battle of the Five Armies Chronicles: The Art of War about the improvised bow:


Quote
Bard had to inprovise to be able to shoot his black arrow after the bow snapped. In reality, when it came for us to fire the black arrow on set, we had to improvise too! It was a cheat in the end, because the actual bowstring simply wasn't long enough to pull that huge arrow back. We extended the string, which hopefully no one would notice in the final film, but was a practical necessity in order for the shot to work.
Jamie Wilson, Armour & Weapons Production Manager

So, that's actually a third reason why the bow should not have worked. Evil

A side-issue is that, after such a big deal was made of the dwarven windlance, we really should have had a good shot of Smaug destroying it if it wasn't going to be used by Bard. Peter Jackson completely blew that--there was zero pay off.

"I may be on the side of the angels, but do not think for one second that I am one of them." - Sherlock

(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Apr 30, 8:14pm)


Kilidoescartwheels
Tol Eressea


May 1, 3:09am

Post #8 of 27 (4592 views)
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I agree [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
A side-issue is that, after such a big deal was made of the dwarven windlance, we really should have had a good shot of Smaug destroying it if it wasn't going to be used by Bard. Peter Jackson completely blew that--there was zero pay off.


To make such a big deal out of it in DoS and then just completely forget about it in BOT5A??? And with the arrow obviously way too big to fire from a longbow, it just doesn't make sense!

I'm not scared to be seen, I make no apologies - this is me!

from The Greatest Showman




Otaku-sempai
Immortal


May 1, 4:26am

Post #9 of 27 (4586 views)
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The Windlance as MacGuffin [In reply to] Can't Post

I can't quite tell if you are being sincere, Kili', or if you're having a bit of fun. But the windlance was being teased in both of the first two Hobbit movies. Destroying it off-screen really was a cheat to the audience, though I realize that it doesn't bother everyone. It irritates me more that Jackson expects us to be stupid enough to accept that Bard's improvised weapon could launch the humongous Black Arrow.

I'm not angry, just disappointed. Pirate

"I may be on the side of the angels, but do not think for one second that I am one of them." - Sherlock

(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on May 1, 4:27am)


Kilidoescartwheels
Tol Eressea


May 1, 1:29pm

Post #10 of 27 (4555 views)
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Oh, I'm being serious [In reply to] Can't Post

Yeah, it was briefly shown in AUJ, I was thinking more about Balin's speech after Thorin saw the Dwarvish Windlance, something like "Only a black arrow fired from a windlance...." And then it was just dropped. I don't even know for sure it was destroyed off-screen, one can assume so but really, the whole thing disappeared. Maybe aliens stole it? (okay, that was just a bit of sillinessSly) I'm not angry, either, but I do count that as one of the movie's bigger flaws.

I'm not scared to be seen, I make no apologies - this is me!

from The Greatest Showman




Silmaril
Rohan


May 3, 7:18am

Post #11 of 27 (4363 views)
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Bard's improvised ballista [In reply to] Can't Post

A strange construction...Bard's jail break never should have worked either...it's impossible for me to take that movies serious.


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


May 3, 7:39am

Post #12 of 27 (4358 views)
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MythBusters! [In reply to] Can't Post

Bard's jailbreak would be another good one to test on MythBusters. I'm not sure that it shouldn't have worked outside of the notion that Bard should not have been able to get rope from his cell--much less enough for his need.

"I may be on the side of the angels, but do not think for one second that I am one of them." - Sherlock


Petty Dwarf
Bree


May 3, 7:17pm

Post #13 of 27 (4271 views)
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I don't know. [In reply to] Can't Post

I would tend to think that the rope would stop the boat and/or strangle the Master before tearing out the wall of a building.

"No words were laid on stream or stone
When Durin woke and walked alone."


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


May 3, 8:50pm

Post #14 of 27 (4258 views)
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Inertia and Momentum [In reply to] Can't Post

It was a good-sized boat, heavy with gold. Momentum and the work of the rowers (polers?) might well have been enough to keep it moving and pull the (old?) out the (rotting?) bars. I agree that the Master probably should have had his larynx crushed!

"I may be on the side of the angels, but do not think for one second that I am one of them." - Sherlock


Arannir
Valinor


May 8, 12:39pm

Post #15 of 27 (3767 views)
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Music [In reply to] Can't Post

The music is beautiful. It could have been louder (as in many scenes in THE movies) but is is pretty epic.

The scene itself - it is simply bad screenwriting how the windlance was dropped imho.



"I am afraid it is only too likely to be true what you say about the critics and the public. I am dreading the publication for it will be impossible not to mind what is said. I have exposed my heart to be shot at." J.R.R. Tolkien

We all have our hearts and minds one way or another invested in these books and movies. So we all mind and should show the necessary respect.



Mooseboy018
Grey Havens


May 15, 7:23am

Post #16 of 27 (3546 views)
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windlance destroyed [In reply to] Can't Post

I vaguely remember some official source like an art book mentioning the windlance being destroyed. With all of BotFA's unfinished effect shots, I wouldn't be surprised if that was something that was planned but slipped through the cracks (not even making it into the extended cut).


Chen G.
Rivendell

May 15, 6:01pm

Post #17 of 27 (3494 views)
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But its the kind of this that one accepts quite intuitively [In reply to] Can't Post

I just recall watching the film for the first time and immediately understanding "Well, it obviously got destroyed in all the mayham." So, in terms of strucural problems, its really not a biggie.


skyofcoffeebeans
Rivendell

May 15, 6:45pm

Post #18 of 27 (3489 views)
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Idk [In reply to] Can't Post

Itís a legitimate issue with the film. You yourself have described the importance of setup / payoff before.


Chen G.
Rivendell

May 15, 6:47pm

Post #19 of 27 (3488 views)
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Oh, sure [In reply to] Can't Post

But that's something that you sort of accept. "Well, it probably got destroyed."

I, for instance, care much more about Thrain's "Tell Thorin that I loved him" not paying off. It turns out it was just an artifical way to dramatize the situation further.

I will say however that, inn such a big canvas, its understandable that its not going to be structured nearly at tightly as, say, something like the original "Back to the Future" which is full of setup-and-payoff - because its a much shorter script.

But there are a lot of things that do payoff: even small stuff like the "Blunt the Knives" number which sets up the Dwarves' coordination, pays off in numerous action sequences; Bilbo's handkerchief; his conversation with Bofur; Bifur's Ax; etc...


(This post was edited by Chen G. on May 15, 6:54pm)


skyofcoffeebeans
Rivendell

May 15, 6:51pm

Post #20 of 27 (3485 views)
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I agree [In reply to] Can't Post

I really thought BOTFA EE would rectify and tie in with the previous EE. I guess the stressors of being captured by the Necromancer makes a wizard forgetful!


Chen G.
Rivendell

May 15, 6:52pm

Post #21 of 27 (3485 views)
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Nah, there just wasn't an opportunity to do that [In reply to] Can't Post

Gandalf never had a quiet moment with Thorin where that would be appropriate. It wasn't meant to pay-off in any way - it was only used to highten the tragedy that was imminent in that scene, which is unfortunate.


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


May 15, 7:14pm

Post #22 of 27 (3477 views)
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I wouldn't mind so much... [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
I just recall watching the film for the first time and immediately understanding "Well, it obviously got destroyed in all the mayham." So, in terms of strucural problems, its really not a biggie.


...my problem with it is that the substitution for the windlance is such a huge, unbelievable cheat. I can easily accept Elves, Dwarves and dragons in a fantasy film; but not a Rube Goldberg device that cannot possibly work as presented even in a world where magic is a given. My willing suspension of disbelieve (much like Bard's bowstring) cannot stretch to that extent.

"I may be on the side of the angels, but do not think for one second that I am one of them." - Sherlock

(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on May 15, 7:23pm)


Chen G.
Rivendell

May 15, 7:19pm

Post #23 of 27 (3469 views)
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The energy of the sequence is such that it really doesn't bother me [In reply to] Can't Post

I think the internet's brand of layman film criticm has made people look too much into individual beats rather than the narrative as a whole. To me, the energy of the scene just doesn't allow you to dwell on these kinds of moments, so its really inconsequential in the grand scheme of things. But admittedly one's milleage may vary.

I hold that its the best "James Bond opening" of the entire series: Because unlike Fellowship's its part of the linear flow of the plot, unlike The Two Towers', its an entire sequence, not just a single scene; and unlike An Unexpected Journey, its not a sequence burdened with exposition.

Its also an excellent statement of tone and theme: "Oh, you thought Smaug was the arch-villain? Wrong, he was a red herring! What? you thought you'd kill the dragon and reclaim this huge pile of gold without consequence and everybody would live happily ever after?!"

By making this a separate film, and opening it the way that it does, that's the message - which Tolkien very much intended for when he rewrote the final chapters of The Hobbit - that the filmmakers are conveying to the audience. It wouldn't work like that had this film's plot been attached to the end of the previous film, and I'd say its this theme of subverting expectation that comes to define this film.


(This post was edited by Chen G. on May 15, 7:22pm)


Mooseboy018
Grey Havens


May 15, 9:42pm

Post #24 of 27 (3449 views)
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"Aaaaaahhhhh!!!!" [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
it was only used to highten the tragedy that was imminent in that scene


Which was immediately ruined by the worst use of the Wilhelm Scream I've ever witnessed.Laugh


Chen G.
Rivendell

May 15, 9:56pm

Post #25 of 27 (3445 views)
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Was it, though? [In reply to] Can't Post

I always hear that claim, but it always sounds to me like Sir Anthony's voice. It may be Wilhelm-like, but its his voice, I am sure.

There's certainly nothing comedic about it.

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