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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
What was Gandalf and the Dwarves' ultimate plan once they reached Erebor?

OhioDude72
The Shire

Apr 19, 3:59pm

Post #1 of 25 (3893 views)
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What was Gandalf and the Dwarves' ultimate plan once they reached Erebor? Can't Post

They never really specify in the movies and I haven't read the book. They say they need a burglar and that they intend to enter the hidden door but what was their ultimate plan of action? Was it their intention to send Bilbo in to steal a random piece of treasure to provoke Smaug out of the mountain, and if so what was their plan then? They had no way of knowing that Bard would successfully slay him, or that he would even attack Lake Town.


(This post was edited by OhioDude72 on Apr 19, 4:05pm)


Noria
Gondor

Apr 19, 5:17pm

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The plan [In reply to] Can't Post

Gandalf's plan in the movies was for Bilbo to steal the Arkenstone, which was hugely symbolic to all Dwarves. I suppose the company was then going to sneak away with it. Its possession would elevate Thorin, and enable him to claim his place as the heir of Durin and mobilize all the armies of the Dwarves to attack Erebor.

The plan in the book was for Bilbo to steal the treasure a piece at a time, then somehow the Dwarves were going to sneak it away over the desolation. The Arkenstone was just the most precious and valuable piece of bling in the Mountain.


OhioDude72
The Shire

Apr 19, 5:42pm

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Interesting [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Gandalf's plan in the movies was for Bilbo to steal the Arkenstone, which was hugely symbolic to all Dwarves. I suppose the company was then going to sneak away with it. Its possession would elevate Thorin, and enable him to claim his place as the heir of Durin and mobilize all the armies of the Dwarves to attack Erebor.

The plan in the book was for Bilbo to steal the treasure a piece at a time, then somehow the Dwarves were going to sneak it away over the desolation. The Arkenstone was just the most precious and valuable piece of bling in the Mountain.


That shows Peter Jackson's strength as a writer/storyteller (unless that was Del Toro's idea.) That makes much more sense than the plan in the book.


Darkstone
Immortal


Apr 19, 5:58pm

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Simple [In reply to] Can't Post

Phase 1: Steal Smaug's underpants

Phase 2: ?

Phase 3: Profit

******************************************
“Did you say 'You Shall Not Pass' or 'You Shall Not Sass'?" asked the Balrog.

"I said 'You Shall Not Pass,'” replied Gandalf; "and I wish you wouldn't keep appearing and vanishing so suddenly: you make one quite giddy."

"All right," said the Balrog; and this time it vanished quite slowly, beginning with the end of its wings, and ending with its shadow, which remained some time after the rest of it had gone.

'Well! I've often seen wings without a Balrog,' thought Gandalf; `but a Balrog without wings! It's the most curious thing I ever saw in my life!’

-The Adventures of Gandalf in Middle-earth Land




Silverlode
Forum Admin / Moderator


Apr 19, 6:56pm

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It should be noted... [In reply to] Can't Post

In the book, the treasure hoard was not nearly so enormous as in the movies. Tolkien's own illustration shows a much smaller Smaug lying on top of a single pile of treasure. Peter Jackson vastly enlarged both. I believe there was also some hope that Smaug was dead and they would have no opposition at all since nothing had been seen or heard of him in so long.

Silverlode

Roads go ever ever on
Under cloud and under star
Yet feet that wandering have gone
Turn at last to home afar.
Eyes that fire and sword have seen
And horror in the halls of stone
Look at last on meadows green
And trees and hills they long have known.




OhioDude72
The Shire

Apr 19, 7:09pm

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Yeah [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
In the book, the treasure hoard was not nearly so enormous as in the movies. Tolkien's own illustration shows a much smaller Smaug lying on top of a single pile of treasure. Peter Jackson vastly enlarged both. I believe there was also some hope that Smaug was dead and they would have no opposition at all since nothing had been seen or heard of him in so long.


Interesting. I think the best storyline is the Arkenstone snatch. It makes the most sense, and it creates a more intense encounter.


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Apr 19, 9:24pm

Post #7 of 25 (3815 views)
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The Imprtance (or lack thereof) of the Arkenstone [In reply to] Can't Post

Interesting. I think the best storyline is the Arkenstone snatch. It makes the most sense, and it creates a more intense encounter.


The Arkenstone was much more important in the movies than it was in the book. Tolkien never attributes its possessor with any authority over all of the Seven Houses of the Dwarves. Its significance is limited to the Longbeards alone. Thorin's obsession with it is due to the Arkensone being a primary relic belonging to the Dwarves of Erebor and specifically to the King under the Mountain.

Note that the Arkenstone was never needed to unite the Dwarves against the Orcs of the Misty Mountains. In Peter Jackson's Middle-earth, I'm not sure how they did become united. Thror was not slain the the films until the Battle of Moria (Battle of Azanulbizar). In Tolkien's legendarium it was the murder of Thror by Azog that started the War of the Dwarves and Orcs. Perhaps Thror's Ring was enough to grant him that authority?

"I may be on the side of the angels, but do not think for one second that I am one of them." - Sherlock


Kilidoescartwheels
Tol Eressea


Apr 19, 9:42pm

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My take on the "plan" [In reply to] Can't Post

This is one area where the book is rather weak - as far as I can remember, they didn't really have a plan beyond seeing if they could get inside. The Dwarves in the book are not the heroic warriors of the movie, they are ill-prepared for many things and tend to stumble around a lot. It's possible that they also wanted to get a bit of treasure and see if Smaug was still alive, but even that isn't made terribly clear in the book.

I'm not scared to be seen, I make no apologies - this is me!

from The Greatest Showman




Noria
Gondor

Apr 20, 11:50am

Post #9 of 25 (3773 views)
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Silverlode, this is all true of course [In reply to] Can't Post

though Bilbo does remark to Thorin (IMO somewhat reproachfully) that the latter had never properly conveyed to his burglar the sheer size of his grandfather's treasure. Agreed that PJ made it much bigger, impossibly so, but it looks good.

It never mattered to me that the book Dwarves had no sensible plan as such because they were so incompetent in general. The book works as it is. It would have been more surprising if the intelligent film Thorin and Balin and their company of fighters were equally feckless.

Did PJ drop the ball on this or did events at Erebor overtake Thorin and his original plan? I suppose that plan was to sneak away with the Arkenstone and rally all the Dwarves, but that went awry and Dain turned up anyway.


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Apr 20, 4:32pm

Post #10 of 25 (3746 views)
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Recover the Arkenstone. Unite the Dwarves. [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Did PJ drop the ball on this or did events at Erebor overtake Thorin and his original plan? I suppose that plan was to sneak away with the Arkenstone and rally all the Dwarves, but that went awry and Dain turned up anyway.


If we go back to the prologue of The Desolation of Smaug with Thorin and Gandalf in Bree, we learn that his was exactly the plan. Gandalf urged Thorin to unite the Dwarves and with their combined might take back Erebor. However, in the film-canon Thorin could not accomplish this without the Arkenstone which was still in the treasure-chamber in the Mountain. At this point Gandalf remarks that they are going to need a burglar.

In book-canon, the King under the Mountain had no authority to command the other Houses of the Dwarves. They only united for the War of the Dwarves and Orcs over the outrage perpetrated by Azog against Thror and the Longbeards. They were not obligated to do so by any previous oaths.

"I may be on the side of the angels, but do not think for one second that I am one of them." - Sherlock

(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Apr 20, 4:34pm)


Silverlode
Forum Admin / Moderator


Apr 20, 5:43pm

Post #11 of 25 (3745 views)
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It's still a ridiculous plan [In reply to] Can't Post

To try to steal even as much gold as Tolkien showed Smaug hoarding, but it's far more plausible than in the movies. In the movies, you would never think a party of dwarves could make off with even the tiniest portion of all that gold. But you could send a burglar to try to find one particular piece of it. In the book, Smaug notices the loss of even one cup. The movie didn't even bother with that, it just went straight for personal rancor and resentment between the Dragon and the dwarves.

I agree that the movie hoard looks great. In fact, the Smaug and hoard scenes are some of my favorites in the trilogy. But the book plot wouldn't fit in there at all. Not that I think they tried to, I'm sure the changes to story probably came before or at least along with the designs. If you have to search for a needle in a haystack on screen, might as well make the haystack immense!

Silverlode

Roads go ever ever on
Under cloud and under star
Yet feet that wandering have gone
Turn at last to home afar.
Eyes that fire and sword have seen
And horror in the halls of stone
Look at last on meadows green
And trees and hills they long have known.




Noria
Gondor

Apr 20, 7:43pm

Post #12 of 25 (3702 views)
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I think we all agree on this. [In reply to] Can't Post

That the plan in the book was hazy and in practice unworkable.

And that by elevating the significance of the Arkenstone and making it the first object of the quest, at least PJ's Dwarves made a plan that appeared to have some possibility of success.

I would say that, in both book and movies, in the end the plan was only a plot device for getting Bilbo and the Dwarves into the Mountain. Once Smaug was dead, everything changed and Thorin no longer needed the Dwarves of the other houses until he was besieged.


Ataahua
Superuser / Moderator


Apr 20, 8:27pm

Post #13 of 25 (3689 views)
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So maybe Gandalf's plan was slightly different to what he said it was? [In reply to] Can't Post

Anger Smaug enough to get him to leave the mountain (stealing even one gold coin should do it); likely he'll attack Lake-town, as the nearest habitation, perpetrating an outrage that hopefully Men, Dwarves and Elves couldn't ignore; then the three races unite against their bigger foe, taking out a significant asset for the Other Side in the war to come.

All he needs is for the desparate, landless Dwarves to swallow his story of how to get their hands on some gold.

Let's face it: Gandalf's ruthless.

Celebrimbor: "Pretty rings..."
Dwarves: "Pretty rings..."
Men: "Pretty rings..."
Sauron: "Mine's better."

"Ah, how ironic, the addictive qualities of Sauron’s master weapon led to its own destruction. Which just goes to show, kids - if you want two small and noble souls to succeed on a mission of dire importance... send an evil-minded beggar with them too." - Gandalf's Diaries, final par, by Ufthak.


Ataahua's stories


Laineth
Lorien

Apr 20, 8:59pm

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The Book [In reply to] Can't Post


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This is one area where the book is rather weak - as far as I can remember, they didn't really have a plan beyond seeing if they could get inside. The Dwarves in the book are not the heroic warriors of the movie, they are ill-prepared for many things and tend to stumble around a lot. It's possible that they also wanted to get a bit of treasure and see if Smaug was still alive, but even that isn't made terribly clear in the book.


The book really dropped the ball on this.

In Bag End:


Quote
"Yes, yes, but that was long ago," said Gloin. "I was talking about you. And I assure you there is a mark on this door-the usual one in the trade, or used to be. Burglar wants a good job, plenty of Excitement and reasonable Reward, that's how it is usually read. You can say Expert Treasure-hunter instead of Burglar if you like. Some of them do. It's all the same to us. Gandalf told us that there was a man of the sort in these parts looking for a Job at once, and that he had arranged for a meeting here this Wednesday tea-time."
"Of course there is a mark," said Gandalf. "I put it there myself. For very good reasons. You asked me to find the fourteenth man for your expedition, and I chose Mr. Baggins. Just let any one say I chose the wrong man or the wrong house, and you can stop at thirteen and have all the bad luck you like, or go back to digging coal."
He scowled so angrily at Gloin that the dwarf huddled back in his chair; and when Bilbo tried to open his mouth to ask a question, he turned and frowned at him and stuck oat his bushy eyebrows, till Bilbo shut his mouth tight with a snap. "That's right," said Gandalf. "Let's have no more argument. I have chosen Mr. Baggins and that ought to be enough for all of you. If I say he is a Burglar, a Burglar he is, or will be when the time comes. There is a lot more in him than you guess, and a deal more than he has any idea of himself. You may (possibly) all live to thank me yet. Now Bilbo, my boy, fetch the lamp, and let's have little light on this!"
On the table in the light of a big lamp with a red shad he spread a piece of parchment rather like a map.
[cut]
Gandalf: “That is why I settled on burglary-especially when I remembered the existence of a Side-door. And here is our little Bilbo Baggins, the burglar, the chosen and selected burglar. So now let's get on and make some plans."
"Very well then," said Thorin, "supposing the burglar-expert gives us some ideas or suggestions."He turned with mock-politeness to Bilbo.
[cut]
"Hear, hear!" said Bilbo, and accidentally said it aloud, "Hear what?" they all said turning suddenly towards him, and he was so flustered that he answered "Hear what I have got to say!" "What's that?" they asked.
"Well, I should say that you ought to go East and have a look round. After all there is the Side-door, and dragons must sleep sometimes, I suppose. If you sit on the doorstep long enough, I daresay you will think of something. And well, don't you know, I think we have talked long enough for one night, if you see what I mean. What about bed, and an early start, and all that? I will give you a good breakfast before you go."
"Before we go, I suppose you mean," said Thorin. "Aren't you the burglar? And isn't sitting on the door-step your job, not to speak of getting inside the door? But I agree about bed and breakfast. I like eggs with my ham, when starting on a journey: fried not poached, and mind you don't break 'em."


We are not given any actual reason for Bilbo's presence.

Then we get to the Mountain. And...


Quote
"Now is the time for our esteemed Mr. Baggins, who has proved himself a good companion on our long road, and a hobbit full of courage and resource far exceeding his size, and if I may say so possessed of good luck far exceeding the usual allowance-now is the time for him to perform the service for which he was included in our Company; now is the time for him to earn his Reward."
You are familiar with Thorin's style on important occasions, so I will not give you any more of it, though he went on a good deal longer than this. It certainly was an important occasion, but Bilbo felt impatient. By now he was quite familiar with Thorin too, and he knew what be was driving at.
"If you mean you think it is my job to go into the secret passage first, O Thorin Thrain's son Oakenshield, may your beard grow ever longer," he said crossly, "say so at once and have done! I might refuse. I have got you out of two messes already, which were hardly in the original bargain, so that I am, I think, already owed some reward. But ‘third time pays for all' as my father used to say, and somehow I don't think I shall refuse. Perhaps I have begun to trust my luck more than I used to in the old days" - he meant last spring before he left his own house, but it seemed centuries ago - "but anyway I think I will go and have a peep at once and get it over. Now who is coming with me?"
He did not expect a chorus of volunteers, so he was not disappointed. Fili and Kili looked uncomfortable and stood on One leg, but the others made no pretence of offering - except old Balin, the look-out man, who was rather fond the hobbit. He said he would come inside at least and perhaps a bit of the way too, really to call for help if necessary.
[cut]
Then Bilbo fled. But the dragon did not wake - not - yet but shifted into other dreams of greed and violence, lying there in his stolen hall while the little hobbit toiled back up the long tunnel. His heart was beating and a more fevered shaking was in his legs than when he was going down, but still he clutched the cup, and his chief thought was: "I've done it! This will show them. 'More like a grocer than a burglar' indeed! Well, we'll hear no more of that."
Nor did he. Balin was overjoyed to see the hobbit again, and as delighted as he was surprised. He picked Bilbo up and carried him out into the open air. It was midnight and clouds had covered the stars, but Bilbo lay with his eyes shut, gasping and taking pleasure in the feel of the fresh air again, and hardly noticing the excitement of the dwarves, or how they praised him and patted him on the back and put themselves and all their families for generations to come at his service.
The dwarves were still passing the cup from hand to hand and talking delightedly of the recovery of their treasure, when suddenly a vast rumbling woke in the mountain underneath as if it was an old volcano that had made up its mind to start eruptions once again.
[cut]
They debated long on what was to be done, but they could think of no way of getting rid of Smaug - which had always been a weak point in their plans, as Bilbo felt inclined to point out. Then as is the nature of folk that are thoroughly perplexed, they began to grumble at the hobbit, blaming him for what had at first so pleased them: for bringing away a cup and stirring up Smaug's wrath so soon.
"What else do you suppose a burglar is to do?" asked Bilbo angrily. "I was not engaged to kill dragons, that is warrior's work, but to steal treasure. I made the best beginning I could. Did you expect me to trot back with the whole hoard of Thror on my back? If there is any grumbling to be done, I think I might have a say. You ought to have brought five hundred burglars not one. I am sure it reflects great credit on your grandfather, but you cannot pretend that you ever made the vast extent of his wealth clear to me. I should want hundreds of years to bring it all up, if I was fifty times as big, and Smaug as tame as a rabbit."
After that of course the dwarves begged his pardon.
"What then do you propose we should do, Mr. Baggins?" asked Thorin politely.
"I have no idea at the moment - if you mean about removing the treasure. That obviously depends entirely on some new turn of luck and the getting rid of Smaug.
Getting rid of dragons is not at all in my line, but I will do my best to think about it. Personally I have no hopes at all, and wish I was safe back at home."


A random cup? That Bilbo just randomly grabbed? Honestly?!

Bilbo sneaks back in and talks to Smaug, returning empty handed. This is when the Arkenstone first comes up.


Quote
But fairest of all was the great white gem, which the dwarves had found beneath the roots of the Mountain, the Heart of the Mountain, the Arkenstone of Thrain.
"The Arkenstone! The Arkenstone!" murmured Thorin in the dark, half dreaming with his chin upon his knees. "It was like a globe with a thousand facets; it shone like silver in the firelight, like water in the sun, like snow under the stars, like rain upon the Moon!"
[cut]
Thorin was not least among these; but always he searched from side to side for something which he could not find. It was the Arkenstone but he spoke of it yet to no one.
[cut]
Many of the dwarves spent their time piling and ordering the treasure; and now Thorin spoke of the Arkenstone of Thrain, and bade them eagerly to look for it in every comer.
"For the Arkenstone of my father," he said, "is worth more than a river of gold in itself, and to me it is beyond price. That stone of all the treasure I name unto myself, and I will be avenged on anyone who finds it and withholds it."
[cut]
"This is the Arkenstone of Thrain," said Bilbo, "the Heart of the Mountain; and it is also the heart of Thorin. He values it above a river of gold. I give it to you. It will aid you in your bargaining." Then Bilbo, not without a shudder, not without a glance of longing, handed the marvellous stone to Bard, and he held it in his hand, as though dazed.
[cut]
"What of the Arkenstone of Thrain?" said he, and at the same moment the old man opened the casket and held aloft the jewel. The light leapt from his hand, bright and white in the morning.
Then Thorin was stricken dumb with amazement and confusion. No one spoke for a long while. Thorin at length broke the silence, and his voice was thick with wrath. "That stone was my father's, and is mine," he said. "Why should I purchase my own?" But wonder overcame him and he added: "But how came you by the heirloom of my house-if there is need to ask such a question of thieves?"


And now suddenly the Arkenstone, which had never been mentioned before, is crucial to the story.

~*~

Phillipa talked about this in an interview:


Quote
Thorin’s intentions are very pure when he returns to his homeland. He intends to do what we say at the beginning of this film. His goal is still the same: to reclaim the King’s jewel, the Arkenstone.
This is actually a divergence from the book, but something we felt we needed to make clear, because the Arkenstone becomes very, very important in this story. We needed Bilbo to have a very strong reason for going into Erebor. What’s his goal, what’s he going in there to retrieve? And it became obvious that what it needed to be was the Arkenstone.



Kilidoescartwheels
Tol Eressea


Apr 21, 4:14am

Post #15 of 25 (3625 views)
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Always he must meddle [In reply to] Can't Post

But I hate to think that the attack on Laketown was part of Gandalf's plan. I think he said it in the DOS prologue, united the armies of the 7 Dwarves, take back the mountain, and either kill or drive Smaug away. Things just didn't quite work out the way Gandalf hoped.

I'm not scared to be seen, I make no apologies - this is me!

from The Greatest Showman




Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Apr 21, 7:13am

Post #16 of 25 (3614 views)
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Gandalf's plan given in Bree [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
But I hate to think that the attack on Laketown was part of Gandalf's plan. I think he said it in the DOS prologue, united the armies of the 7 Dwarves, take back the mountain, and either kill or drive Smaug away. Things just didn't quite work out the way Gandalf hoped.


Agreed. Gandalf stated his plans to Thorin in the Prancing Pony. In the films, the entire idea of getting the Dwarves to reclaim Erebor by first recovering the Arkenstone was his in the first place. However, I suspect that someone was being cheeky to ascribe less than ethical methods to Gandalf's madness.

"I may be on the side of the angels, but do not think for one second that I am one of them." - Sherlock


Ataahua
Superuser / Moderator


Apr 21, 10:02am

Post #17 of 25 (3590 views)
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How about this instead? [In reply to] Can't Post

Gandalf was drunk when he proposed the burglary, then didn't know how to back out of it when he sobered up.

You have to admit, the guy knows his way around a pub.

Angelic

Celebrimbor: "Pretty rings..."
Dwarves: "Pretty rings..."
Men: "Pretty rings..."
Sauron: "Mine's better."

"Ah, how ironic, the addictive qualities of Sauron’s master weapon led to its own destruction. Which just goes to show, kids - if you want two small and noble souls to succeed on a mission of dire importance... send an evil-minded beggar with them too." - Gandalf's Diaries, final par, by Ufthak.


Ataahua's stories


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Apr 21, 12:56pm

Post #18 of 25 (3576 views)
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Heh. [In reply to] Can't Post

I was going to comment that Gandalf must be a cheap drunk when I remembered that it was Thorin who had only just arrived at the Pony. Wink

"I may be on the side of the angels, but do not think for one second that I am one of them." - Sherlock


Meneldor
Valinor


Apr 21, 5:05pm

Post #19 of 25 (3567 views)
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In the immortal words of Dr Jones, [In reply to] Can't Post

"I don't know, I'm making this up as I go."


They that go down to the sea in ships, that do business in great waters, these see the works of the Lord, and His wonders in the deep. -Psalm 107


OhioDude72
The Shire

Apr 21, 5:29pm

Post #20 of 25 (3558 views)
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Is it just me [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Gandalf was drunk when he proposed the burglary, then didn't know how to back out of it when he sobered up.

You have to admit, the guy knows his way around a pub.

Angelic


Or was that Jackson w the drunk grin at the beginning of the pub scene?


Hamfast Gamgee
Grey Havens

Apr 21, 9:33pm

Post #21 of 25 (3538 views)
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I think that is possibly correct [In reply to] Can't Post

I don't think that they had much of a coherant plan. Though Gandalf might have had some thoughts of stragety at the back of his mind. In the book, Thorin does say that they didn't really expect to survive as far as The Lonely Mountain, never mind have some kind of idea of what to do after that. Still, don't knock it, it worked. Of course, Gandalf suspected that fate or Eru was having some kind of invisible hand in events, but that is always a slightly dodgy idea it seems to me!


Petty Dwarf
Bree


Apr 22, 6:58pm

Post #22 of 25 (3450 views)
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The whole thing... [In reply to] Can't Post

...was pretty much a big game of gambit roulette that was being made up as the dwarves (and Bilbo) went on. They were waiting until they actually got the door open to decide what to do once it was open because, let's face it, they had no idea what was going to be inside.

"No words were laid on stream or stone
When Durin woke and walked alone."


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Apr 22, 7:23pm

Post #23 of 25 (3445 views)
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The movies improved on Thorin's plans [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
The whole thing... ...was pretty much a big game of gambit roulette that was being made up as the dwarves (and Bilbo) went on. They were waiting until they actually got the door open to decide what to do once it was open because, let's face it, they had no idea what was going to be inside.


That is more true in Tolkien's book than in the films. Gandalf and Thorin managed to come up with something more closely resembling a plan when they met in Bree than the Dwarves of the book had when they reached the Mountain.

1. Find the Arkenstone.
2. Unite the Dwarves.
3. Kill the Dragon and take Erebor back.

In the book, Thorin's best-case scenario was to find Smaug dead or gone. Short of that, he might have hoped to carry off enough treasure from under the sleeping dragon's nose to fund a campaign against Smaug. Or to find a way to kill Smaug in his sleep.

"I may be on the side of the angels, but do not think for one second that I am one of them." - Sherlock


No One in Particular
Rivendell


Apr 22, 11:44pm

Post #24 of 25 (3403 views)
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Smaug-dead? [In reply to] Can't Post

This would hold true for the movies as well. Best case is finding Smaug dead of old age or an aneurysm or something. I don't remember right this minute, was there any doubt in the movies that Smaug was still alive?

Beyond that? If they could find a way to kill him in his sleep, I imagine Gandalf would have been all over that plan. Then all that's left to do is figure out what to do with this giant dragon carcass in the main hall!

But realistically, the best hope is the Arkenstone/rally the dwarves plan. I think hoping that forcing Smaug to attack Esgaroth in hopes of forcing a hero to arise at the last minute and slay the dragon could be considered sheer insanity-in fact, I'd be willing to bet money that Gandalf was as shocked at the outcome of Smaug's attack on Lake Town as anyone else in the story-that was siply something that could not have been predicted. You could almost (but not quite) call it long-game eucatastrophe even; if the dragon had not attacked Lake Town and been slain, there's no real telling how the War of the Ring might have ended differently.

While you live, shine
Have no grief at all
Life exists only for a short while
And time demands an end.
Seikilos Epitaph


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Apr 23, 12:54am

Post #25 of 25 (3395 views)
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Only a very small chance. [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
This would hold true for the movies as well. Best case is finding Smaug dead of old age or an aneurysm or something. I don't remember right this minute, was there any doubt in the movies that Smaug was still alive?


Smaug had not been seen in sixty years, so there was a chance that he had died or left the Mountain.


In Reply To
Beyond that? If they could find a way to kill him in his sleep, I imagine Gandalf would have been all over that plan. Then all that's left to do is figure out what to do with this giant dragon carcass in the main hall!


Mmmm. Dragon-steaks. Ripe meat off the bone! However, there was no advance plan that involved killing Smaug before the Dwarves could be united.


In Reply To
But realistically, the best hope is the Arkenstone/rally the dwarves plan. I think hoping that forcing Smaug to attack Esgaroth in hopes of forcing a hero to arise at the last minute and slay the dragon could be considered sheer insanity-in fact, I'd be willing to bet money that Gandalf was as shocked at the outcome of Smaug's attack on Lake Town as anyone else in the story-that was siply something that could not have been predicted. You could almost (but not quite) call it long-game eucatastrophe even; if the dragon had not attacked Lake Town and been slain, there's no real telling how the War of the Ring might have ended differently.


That last certainly reflects Gandalf's fear that Smaug's presence would keep the North from uniting even if Sauron could not enlist the dragon's cooperation.

"I may be on the side of the angels, but do not think for one second that I am one of them." - Sherlock

(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Apr 23, 12:55am)

 
 

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