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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
Tauriel should have died
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Darkstone
Immortal


Apr 19, 9:41pm

Post #26 of 46 (2548 views)
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Yes, Tauriel. [In reply to] Can't Post

Elros is *a* captain of the Woodland Guard and the Master of the Keys, but not "the chief of the guards".

******************************************
“Did you say 'You Shall Not Pass' or 'You Shall Not Sass'?" asked the Balrog.

"I said 'You Shall Not Pass,'” replied Gandalf; "and I wish you wouldn't keep appearing and vanishing so suddenly: you make one quite giddy."

"All right," said the Balrog; and this time it vanished quite slowly, beginning with the end of its wings, and ending with its shadow, which remained some time after the rest of it had gone.

'Well! I've often seen wings without a Balrog,' thought Gandalf; `but a Balrog without wings! It's the most curious thing I ever saw in my life!’

-The Adventures of Gandalf in Middle-earth Land




Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Apr 19, 10:14pm

Post #27 of 46 (2544 views)
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Nice Try! [In reply to] Can't Post

The captain of the guards and the keeper of the keys in Tolkien's Hobbit are the the same Elf. He gets drunk along with his friend Galion, then Bilbo steals the keys from him. If you are going to cite the book, you can't just pick-and-choose. That's cheating! Tongue

Tauriel actually refers to herself in the films as a captain of the guards. As in one among a number of captains. She is never called the chief of the guards in the movies. If she was then I doubt she would be allowed to regularly lead Woodland patrols; her duties would keep her in Thranduil's halls. Some of the promotional material for the movies exaggerated her status.

"I may be on the side of the angels, but do not think for one second that I am one of them." - Sherlock


Darkstone
Immortal


Apr 20, 2:33pm

Post #28 of 46 (2499 views)
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"She’s actually the head of the Elven guard." [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
The captain of the guards and the keeper of the keys in Tolkien's Hobbit are the the same Elf. He gets drunk along with his friend Galion, then Bilbo steals the keys from him. If you are going to cite the book, you can't just pick-and-choose.


This is called “character decompositing”, a practice in adaptation where for purposes of narrative one original character is split up into two or more characters in the film. A moment’s thought provides the reasoning for the film's Elros/Tauriel split. BTW, Jackson’s most extreme instance of “character decompositing” is when he split Jack Driscoll, the hero of the 1933 King Kong film, into *three* characters for his 2006 remake.



In Reply To
That's cheating!


That’s exactly what real life people say when they’ve found they’ve been decomposited in a “based on a true story” movie! For a couple of examples see Apollo 13 (1995) and Captain Phillips (2013).



In Reply To
Tauriel actually refers to herself in the films as a captain of the guards. As in one among a number of captains.


Consider the context in which she says this. In the scene she is deliberately being self-depreciating to assuage Thranduil’s concern over the possibility of a relationship forming between herself and Legolas. Of course I’m just a simple old country boy so I what do I know?



In Reply To
She is never called the chief of the guards in the movies. If she was then I doubt she would be allowed to regularly lead Woodland patrols; her duties would keep her in Thranduil's halls.


As head of a military security force the chief of the guards can be responsible for the protection, posts, and patrols of an entire region. Since we see Tauriel doing it in the film this is obviously the case here. Note the chief of the guards is also responsible for the personal protection of the ruler and family, such as providing an escort during hunts and state functions. This is doubtless why we see a certain red-haired elf accompanying the Prince of the Woodland Realm on a diplomatic mission to Rivendell in the FOTR film.



In Reply To
Some of the promotional material for the movies exaggerated her status.


In an interview for EW Lilly said of Tauriel: “She’s actually the head of the Elven guard. She’s the big shot in the army.” Inasmuch as Lilly has doubtless memorized the production's character bible for Tauriel I take what she says as gospel.

(See http://www.ew.com/...y-real-steel-hobbit/)

******************************************
“Did you say 'You Shall Not Pass' or 'You Shall Not Sass'?" asked the Balrog.

"I said 'You Shall Not Pass,'” replied Gandalf; "and I wish you wouldn't keep appearing and vanishing so suddenly: you make one quite giddy."

"All right," said the Balrog; and this time it vanished quite slowly, beginning with the end of its wings, and ending with its shadow, which remained some time after the rest of it had gone.

'Well! I've often seen wings without a Balrog,' thought Gandalf; `but a Balrog without wings! It's the most curious thing I ever saw in my life!’

-The Adventures of Gandalf in Middle-earth Land




(This post was edited by Darkstone on Apr 20, 2:47pm)


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Apr 20, 4:01pm

Post #29 of 46 (2484 views)
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I agree to disagree. [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
This is called “character decompositing”, a practice in adaptation where for purposes of narrative one original character is split up into two or more characters in the film. A moment’s thought provides the reasoning for the film's Elros/Tauriel split. BTW, Jackson’s most extreme instance of “character decompositing” is when he split Jack Driscoll, the hero of the 1933 King Kong film, into *three* characters for his 2006 remake.


Oh, I am fully aware of the practice. I just found it ironic when you were previous citing book passages that, in their full context, showed the book's chief of the guards to be the same person who was was keeping the keys to the cells. That hurt your argument far more than it helped it. Wink


In Reply To
In an interview for EW Lilly said of Tauriel: “She’s actually the head of the Elven guard. She’s the big shot in the army.” Inasmuch as Lilly has doubtless memorized the production's character bible for Tauriel I take what she says as gospel.


The best evidence that you present is still fairly weak. Actors often enhance the backstory of their characters beyond what is provided by writers, directors, series bibles, scripts, etc. This helps them get into their roles, but it does not necessarily count as movie/series canon. The actors playing the Dwarves of Thorin's Company did the same thing. Also, such canon evolves and changes and can turn out to be very different than how it was originally envisioned.

Truthfully, I can even add to your own evidence. In Jude Fisher's The Hobbit: The Desolation of Smaug Visual Companion Fisher also refers to Tauriel as the "head of the Silvan guard"; and later in The Hobbit: The Battle of the Five Arimies Visual Companion, he calls her the "head of the king's guard". I will concede that this might have been the actual intent of Peter Jackson and his team. I'm just not convinced that the films bear out this vision of the character.

Good enough?

"I may be on the side of the angels, but do not think for one second that I am one of them." - Sherlock

(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Apr 20, 4:03pm)


Laineth
Lorien

Apr 20, 6:15pm

Post #30 of 46 (2469 views)
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Actually [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To

In Reply To
We'll have to agree to disagree on this.


I suppose so. I just don't see any way, myself, to interpret the scene differently, at least are far as Tauriel's feelings are concerned. Even so, you could be correct and I could be reading too much into her facial expressions, body language and dialogue.


We've actually had this conversation before, and could not agree on her facial expressions.

Thranduil says, “Legolas said you fought well today.” Tauriel turns around, lifts her head, and smiles at him.

http://screencapped.org/...69#top_display_media

Thranduil continues, “He has grown very fond of you.” The implication is clear. Tauriel looks away in shock and disbelief, gaping.

http://screencapped.org/...76#top_display_media

http://screencapped.org/...77#top_display_media

After a moment she says, “I assure you, my lord, Legolas thinks of me as no more than a captain of the guard.” She then lowers her eyes because this is a lie, she and Legolas are best friends. But there certainly isn't anything romantic between them!

http://screencapped.org/...89#top_display_media

Thranduil walks towards her, “Perhaps he did once. Now, I'm not so sure.” He walks past her, emotionally cutting her off. Turned away from him, Tauriel gapes again in disbelief, still unable to believe this conversation is happening.

http://screencapped.org/...01#top_display_media

http://screencapped.org/...05#top_display_media

She remains silent for a moment, trying to formulate a response. She finally says, “I do not think you would allow your son to pledge himself to a lowly Silvan elf.” Thranduil pours himself a drink, “No, you are right, I would not.” Tauriel cannot help but glance at him, before looking down, hurt.

http://screencapped.org/...19#top_display_media

http://screencapped.org/...20#top_display_media

http://screencapped.org/...22#top_display_media

“Still, he cares about you.” Thranduil glances at her, seeking her response (he sees her head bowed), and orders, “Do not give him hope where there is none.” Tauriel looks back up, disturbed and pained.

http://screencapped.org/...40#top_display_media


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Apr 20, 6:22pm

Post #31 of 46 (2465 views)
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Yes. [In reply to] Can't Post

I recall the discussion, just not who else was taking part in it. There is certainly room for different subject impressions of the scene. After viewing it in one particular way, though, I have trouble interpreting it in another manner. However, I will happily concede your point.

"I may be on the side of the angels, but do not think for one second that I am one of them." - Sherlock


Laineth
Lorien

Apr 20, 6:37pm

Post #32 of 46 (2464 views)
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Tauriel is the Captain [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
The captain of the guards and the keeper of the keys in Tolkien's Hobbit are the the same Elf. He gets drunk along with his friend Galion, then Bilbo steals the keys from him. If you are going to cite the book, you can't just pick-and-choose. That's cheating! Tongue

Tauriel actually refers to herself in the films as a captain of the guards. As in one among a number of captains. She is never called the chief of the guards in the movies. If she was then I doubt she would be allowed to regularly lead Woodland patrols; her duties would keep her in Thranduil's halls. Some of the promotional material for the movies exaggerated her status.


Since the Rulers all lead their armies from the front, I can't see why any culture in Middle-earth would have the Captain General not also do so? After all, Boromir does.

Actually Tauriel is the Captain in the films, though it's only implied and not stated. During the Mirkwood patrol Legolas is the first elf to arrive and Tauriel the last. Tauriel issues a command in elvish, and Legolas checks in with her - even though Elros was also there. She is the one with the insight into the spiders, not Legolas.

Then, when entering the realm, Tauriel and Legolas walk side by side at the head of the group. They then stand in front of the two pillars before the gate. The dwarves and the other elves go in, then Tauriel, then Legolas begins to. He orders the gate to be closed. Legolas stops and turns around, sensing Bilbo, before entering. Tauriel is the one who has to give Thranduil the official report on the patrol.

After the dwarves escape, Tauriel immediately takes command and demands to know where "The Keeper of the Keys" - Elros - is. In the interrogation scene, she is the only Captain present. I find the set up very interesting – Thranduil is circling Legolas and the orc, Legolas is pinning the orc, and Tauriel is standing opposite them, staring intently at the orc. Thranduil is the king, he's not holding the orc. However, since Tauriel is technically the one of lowest rank, she should be the one holding the orc and asking the questions. Instead, Legolas is.


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Apr 20, 7:11pm

Post #33 of 46 (2456 views)
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Interesting Points [In reply to] Can't Post

I did not notice that Elros was a member of the patrol that captured the Dwarves--good eye!

Tauriel calling herself a captain of the guard weakens the argument for a high rank, but it does not destroy it. You are right that there is more than one way to interpret the line. And you are correct that leaders among the Free Peoples in Tolkien's Middle-earth tend to lead in person (not there there aren't exceptions).

Some of your points are explainable by the familiarity that exists between Legolas and Tauriel. However, that does not rule out other explanations such as Tauriel holding a high rank. But even a mere patrol captain has responsibilities. Her experience with fighting the spiders of Mirkwood is not evidence of a rank beyond being the captain of a patrol; it only indicates that she has gained expertise in fighting the monsters.

Tauriel is present at the beginning of the interrogation of the Orc, but I'm not sure we should read very much into that; we don' have enough context to reach a firm conclusion. She might have been there because she was involved in his capture. She might have requested to be present. Your reasoning also works, but it's not the only possibility.

"I may be on the side of the angels, but do not think for one second that I am one of them." - Sherlock

(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Apr 20, 7:15pm)


skyofcoffeebeans
Rivendell

Apr 20, 7:39pm

Post #34 of 46 (2450 views)
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The only problem with this analysis is... [In reply to] Can't Post

... there's nothing in the film, as far as I know, to corroborate the idea that there "certainly isn't anything romantic between them" just as much as there's nothing in the film to support that Tauriel is attracted to Legolas.

A viewer would have to interject either idea into the narrative itself for it to carry either meaning (which is fine).

However, there is definite evidence for Legolas having feelings for Tauriel. In your post, you ascribe no textual motivation as to why Thranduil would (presumably?) lie about Legolas having feelings for someone in his employment. I can't imagine why that would make sense for someone in Thranduil's position. If he wanted Tauriel away from Legolas (perhaps for his own emotional wellbeing?), it would be a very simple fix for him to do so. The only other reading of the scene could be that Thranduil, one of the shrewdest tacticians of the Third Age, has misread a descendent as unassuming as Legolas.

The Desolation of Smaug and the Battle of the Five Armies are two different films, and as such stand on their own, textually. It can therefore be reasoned that both films should make sense on their own terms. And as far as I can tell, neither establish why Thranduil of all characters would lie about his son's romantic feelings for his own guard.

One area where most of us agree is that Tauriel is the captain of the guards! Wink


(This post was edited by skyofcoffeebeans on Apr 20, 7:40pm)


Laineth
Lorien

Apr 20, 8:35pm

Post #35 of 46 (2438 views)
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Tauriel [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
I did not notice that Elros was a member of the patrol that captured the Dwarves--good eye!

Tauriel calling herself a captain of the guard weakens the argument for a high rank, but it does not destroy it. You are right that there is more than one way to interpret the line. And you are correct that leaders among the Free Peoples in Tolkien's Middle-earth tend to lead in person (not there there aren't exceptions).

Some of your points are explainable by the familiarity that exists between Legolas and Tauriel. However, that does not rule out other explanations such as Tauriel holding a high rank. But even a mere patrol captain has responsibilities. Her experience with fighting the spiders of Mirkwood is not evidence of a rank beyond being the captain of a patrol; it only indicates that she has gained expertise in fighting the monsters.

Tauriel is present at the beginning of the interrogation of the Orc, but I'm not sure we should read very much into that; we don' have enough context to reach a firm conclusion. She might have been there because she was involved in his capture. She might have requested to be present. Your reasoning also works, but it's not the only possibility.


Yes, the orc interrogation is ambiguous. But the other things make it clear that Tauriel ranks above Elros, which seemed to be the question.

Tauriel's putting herself down during a highly charged conversation. I don't think that says much about her actual position.


Laineth
Lorien

Apr 20, 8:50pm

Post #36 of 46 (2435 views)
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Motivations [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
... there's nothing in the film, as far as I know, to corroborate the idea that there "certainly isn't anything romantic between them" just as much as there's nothing in the film to support that Tauriel is attracted to Legolas.

A viewer would have to interject either idea into the narrative itself for it to carry either meaning (which is fine).

However, there is definite evidence for Legolas having feelings for Tauriel. In your post, you ascribe no textual motivation as to why Thranduil would (presumably?) lie about Legolas having feelings for someone in his employment. I can't imagine why that would make sense for someone in Thranduil's position. If he wanted Tauriel away from Legolas (perhaps for his own emotional wellbeing?), it would be a very simple fix for him to do so. The only other reading of the scene could be that Thranduil, one of the shrewdest tacticians of the Third Age, has misread a descendent as unassuming as Legolas.

The Desolation of Smaug and the Battle of the Five Armies are two different films, and as such stand on their own, textually. It can therefore be reasoned that both films should make sense on their own terms. And as far as I can tell, neither establish why Thranduil of all characters would lie about his son's romantic feelings for his own guard.

One area where most of us agree is that Tauriel is the captain of the guards! Wink


I go over this at length in my Tauriel essay, so I'm just going to quote myself:

Tauriel walks to where Legolas is. Completely befuddled and slightly upset, he looks at her and asks, “Why does the dwarf stare at you, Tauriel?” “Who can say?” she snaps, looking at him. Looking away, she says wonderingly and with a small smile, “He's quite tall for a dwarf.” She realizes what she said, shoots Legolas a glance, and awkwardly says, “Do you not think?” walking off before Legolas can answer. Sill completely befuddled, he says after her, “Taller than some, but no less ugly.” There is no hint of jealousy here, just him questioning the sanity of his best friend (Legolas's comment about Gimli being a “goblin mutant” proves that this was already his belief). After all, they're talking about a dwarf.

Kili shifts in his cell and glares at Legolas, because of his closeness to Tauriel. Legolas then narrows his eyes in dislike and irritation. This creature he believes is beneath him is making him very, very confused. He does not like it.
[cut]
Thranduil is walking around, and looks towards the staircase, “I know you're there. Why do you linger in the shadows?” Tauriel moves down the last few steps, “I was coming to report to you.” She is nervous, she knows Thranduil likely won't listen. She walks into the room, faces Thranduil, and bows her head briefly in an official gesture of respect. Thranduil accepts her statement of reporting and questions, “I thought I ordered that nest to be destroyed not two moons past.” Tauriel starts pacing with the controlled fierceness of elven emotion, “We cleared the forest as ordered, my lord, but more spiders keep coming up from the south. They are spawning in the ruins of Dol Guldur.” She stops pacing and moves closer to Thranduil, looking at him, “If we could kill them at their source -” The most logical and efficient thing to do is kill the source. If she could just get to him listen -

Thranduil interrupts her, “That fortress lies beyond our borders. Keep our lands clear of those foul creatures, that is your task.” Tauriel starts pacing again, clearly having heard this before, “And when we drive them off, what then? Will they not spread to other lands?” Everything in her is urging them to act, to destroy the evil for good. Thranduil responds, “Other lands are not my concern.” Tauriel pauses, staring at him. She cannot believe he just said that. He looks away, “The fortunes of the world will rise and fall, but here in this kingdom, we will endure.” Tauriel continues to stare at him. Thranduil looks to the other staircase, hearing Bilbo's slip.

Tauriel lowers her head, turns around, and starts to walk away. He has shut her down.
[cut]
Tauriel's smile here does not in any way imply she has romantic feelings for Legolas. She is happy to be complimented, especially after just being rebuked. Tauriel's obvious shock and disbelief counteracts Thranduil's statements; she clearly has not seen or felt anything romantic in her relationship with Legolas. Her actions show that she is hurt by Thranduil's slighting of her.

Tauriel does not call him 'lord' when she arrives, she questions him, and she starts to leave without saying anything. That is on top of the fact that this is clearly a private room, and Thranduil is not wearing any type of crown. They clearly have a closer relationship than that of just subject and King. When he continues to go on and imply her good friend has romantic feelings for her, and that she's not good enough for said son, Tauriel becomes formal. In one conversation she is shut down, disturbed by the implication of something she doesn't see, and slighted by someone she cares about.

Back to elvish nature for a moment – I said above how elves can tell from the beginning of a relationship if it's romantic-love or friendship-love. That is not contradicted here, because Tauriel's reaction and subsequent events will show no romantic feelings between her and Legolas. As for Thranduil, he would have the ability to read both Legolas and Tauriel's hearts and souls; and yet he not only uses very vague wording (“has grown very fond of you”, “perhaps”, and “not so sure”), he completely ignores the fact that Tauriel has fallen in love with Kili (which he most certainly would have read in her soul when their eyes met). Something else is going on here.

I did not understand this scene before BotFA came out, because it requires a broader understanding of the situation. I have only just started explaining it, so please stick with me, as we'll definitely be coming back to this.
[cut]
We see Legolas, completely unnoticed, watching them impassively from the shadows. As he doesn't move, he has obviously been there for a while. Curiously, he does not look angry, nor does he interrupt them. He just watches. I think Legolas doesn't know what to think, watching his best friend connect and open up to someone he believes is beneath them. However, he respects and loves Tauriel, and will not interfere.
[cut]
Thranduil says as he circles, “Such is the nature of evil. Out there in the vast ignorance of the world it festers and spreads, a shadow that grows in the dark. A sleepless malice as black as the oncoming wall of night.” He looks at Tauriel, “So it ever was;” he looks back at Legolas and the orc, “so will it always be. In time, all foul things come forth.” He stops and crosses his arms, directly parallel from Tauriel. This is Legolas's cue to start interrogating this particular piece of evil.

It is extremely interesting that Thranduil looks at Tauriel when he says it was always that way – there is nothing new about dark creatures and the evil behind them.
[cut]
Grim and angry, Tauriel finally reacts. “You like killing things orc?” she says, “You like death?” she narrows her eyes. Pausing, Tauriel just stares at the orc for a moment. “Then let me give it to you!” she lunges forward. “Enough!” Thranduil commands at the last moment. Being an elf, Tauriel freezes perfectly. “Tauriel, leave!” Thranduil commands. Furious and defiant, she meets Thranduil's gaze. Her love for Kili has combined with her anger, making her lose control and almost kill their only source of information. “Go now,” Thranduil repeats (he does not look surprised, nor does he punish Tauriel for defying him). She straightens up, not breaking eye contact. Legolas glances at her, confused by what's happening.

This is a crucial moment for her. Looking down, she clears her face. Thranduil has confirmed, beyond all doubt, that he does not care. He will not do anything. Her decision is made. Lives are on the line, and she cannot stand back and let evil win. The orc growls, and she glances to the side, before leaving. As she walks away, Thranduil states, “I do not care about one dead dwarf. Answer the question.” Tauriel's face and stride does not change, she already knows Thranduil's opinion.
[cut]
Tauriel stops at the edge of the lake, looking towards Laketown. Hearing something, she spins around and draws her bow. It's Legolas, with his own bow drawn (which is a move of defense – if Tauriel accidentally shoots before realizing it's him, he needs some way neutralize it). Tauriel says, “I thought you were an orc!” Legolas replies, “If I were an orc, you would be dead.” Tauriel's skills are great, but she is not infallible.

They both put their weapons away, and he moves towards her. “Tauriel, you cannot hunt thirty orcs on your own.” But Tauriel is a step ahead of him, and she looks at him knowingly, saying, “But I'm not on my own.” Legolas says warmly, “You knew I would come.” Tauriel smiles knowingly, and looks back across the river. She is glad to have him with her.

Legolas moves closer. “The king is angry, Tauriel. For 600 years, my father has protected you,” Tauriel looks at Legolas, frowning. She knows where this is going. “favored you. You defied his orders, you betrayed his trust.” There is a pause, and Tauriel's mouth tightens as they look at each other. Legolas continues, “Come back with me... he will forgive you.”

This tells us a lot of things. Protect means “to defend from trouble, harm, attack, etc.” Favored means “treated or thought of with great kindness or partiality.” For 600 years, Thranduil has protected and cared for Tauriel. This confirms what I said earlier, about her and Thranduil having a closer relationship than he has with his other subjects. It also raises a very important question – why, if he has and does care for her, did he shut her down and slight her? The idea of Legolas being with her should please him! But it doesn't.

As for Legolas, he is clearly here to bring Tauriel back, telling her of his father's reaction to her disappearance. He certainly would not have come without permission – indeed, he could not have known any of this if he left immediately; instead of going straight to Thranduil, and telling him about Tauriel's disappearance. He is Thranduil's messenger as well – you have defied me and betrayed me, but come back and repent, and I will forgive you.

Tauriel is quick and fierce in her reply, “But I will not. If I go back, I will not forgive myself.” She will not turn away from everything she stands for. She looks back across the lake, walking closer to the edge. “The king has never let orc-filth roam our lands, yet he would let this orc-pack cross our borders and kill our prisoners.” She turns back to Legolas, who responds, “It it not our fight.” She moves closer to him, determined to make him see, saying, “It is our fight. It will not end here. With every victory, this evil will grow.” Legolas starts to look away, uncomfortable. Tauriel continues, “If your father has his way, we will do nothing. We will hide within our walls, live our lives away from the light, and let darkness descend.” Legolas looks back at her, frowning. Tauriel presses on, “Are we not part of this world?” Legolas looks disturbed. Fiercely, Tauriel finishes, “Tell me, mellon, when did we let evil become stronger than us?” Legolas looks away, conflicted.

It is clear Legolas has never seriously questioned his father. Tauriel is making him question his basic beliefs. She also calls him “friend,” further cementing our knowledge of their bond (even though their entire dynamic is that of two close friends).
[cut]
Kili gives Legolas a dirty look. He had to interrupt! In elvish, Legolas says, his face neutral and his voice grave, “Say goodbye to the dwarf. You are needed elsewhere.” Having finished his internal debate, he's sought out Tauriel, telling her to say goodbye, because he needs her. He has no reaction to her being with “the dwarf;” only the seriousness he has had since he returned.
[cut]
Now we know why Legolas was having an internal debate. He followed Tauriel to Laketown because he thought she was right about the orc-pack. Then he saw the mark of Gundabad, and realized this was much bigger than just them, much bigger than just an orc-pack. Legolas went back to Laketown, worried and internally debating what to do. After talking to Bard, he made up his mind. There was clearly a plot afoot, and the enemy needed to be assessed. His first move is to find Tauriel, so they can investigate together.

Before Tauriel can reply, Feren arrives, “My lord Legolas. I bring word from your father. You are to return to him immediately.” Legolas nods and starts walking forward, “Come, Tauriel.” The thought that there might be a problem hasn't even crossed his mind. He and Tauriel have been summoned, so they will go tell Thranduil the information, and then they will all decide what the next step should be.

Tauriel hasn't moved. Unlike Legolas, she's well aware that there will be consequences for her disobedience. With a resigned look, Feren says, “My lord, Tauriel is banished.” Shocked, Legolas says, “Banished?” He cannot believe it. Tauriel looks both grieved and unsurprised. She knew this was a likely outcome.

Legolas continues, angry and grim, “You may tell my father if there is no place for Tauriel, there is no place for me.” Tauriel disobeyed because it was the right thing to do! If Thranduil's going to punish her and be closed minded, then Legolas is just not coming home.

Legolas's response to Tauriel is that Thranduil may be his king, but he doesn't control Legolas's heart. Some have taken this to mean he has romantic feelings for Tauriel. I disagree, since not only have we seen no signs of that so far, he immediately jumps to going to Gundabad. His heart is saying that the right thing to do is to investigate the enemy, so that's what he's going to do.
[cut]
Thranduil comes around the corner, kills an orc, and stops in shock. Tauriel is standing in front of the exit.

This is crucial to understand. Kili's life is in danger, and yet Tauriel doesn't go after him. She goes to confront Thranduil.

By now, Tauriel has become disillusioned with Thranduil. She was shocked when he stated outright that he didn't care about other lands or other people. He warned her off Legolas, and slighted her. He confirmed beyond all doubt, with the orcs, that he will not do anything. He would have them locked up, never truly living, and allow evil to win. He has not told Legolas a single thing about his mother.

Forcefully, Tauriel says, “You will go no further! You will not turn away. Not this time.” She will not let him. She will not.

Furious, Thranduil responds, “Get out of my way.” She dares to do this? She betrayed him. She refused to listen. She dismissed everything he has done for her. She led Legolas into danger. And now, she dares to lecture him?

Tauriel responds, “The dwarves will be slaughtered.” How can he condemn innocents to death?

“Yes, they will die,” Thranduil says, tilting his head as if it's obvious. Tauriel stares at him. “Today, tomorrow, one year hence,” he moves closer, “a hundred years from now,” and closer, “what does it matter?” even closer, “they are mortal.” What does it matter, if they die now, instead of later? Death is inevitable for them. Not for his people.

Tauriel whips out her bow, and Thranduil moves back slightly, shocked (the elves behind him draw their weapons but do not move). “You think your life is worth more than theirs,” she says, lashing out with an angry forcefulness, “when there is no love in it. There's no love in you.”

Thranduil glances to the side, before slashing her bow apart, furious. How dare she? How dare she accuse him of not loving? She knows nothing!

Tauriel is shocked, her bow falling out of her hands. (the elves behind Thranduil lower their weapons)

Angrily and forcefully, Thranduil says, “What do you know of love?” He points his sword at Tauriel's throat.

She looks down at it with a small gasp, surprised.

“Nothing! What you feel for that dwarf, is not real.” Thranduil shakes his head slightly when saying “is not real.”

Tauriel looks at Thranduil fearfully, gasping and crying.

“You think it is love? Are you ready to die for it?”

They stand there and look at each other, Thranduil furious, Tauriel heartbroken.

Okay, time to talk about the whole bunch of realizations I had because of this scene. Both Tauriel and Thranduil react like they've been betrayed by a loved one; their reactions are so great, they want to make the other hurt, and they lash out. Thranduil's verbal attack makes Tauriel crumble. This scene is very, very personal.

To understand why, we need to go back. Remember that for the last 600 years, Thranduil has protected and cared for Tauriel. He took her under his wing, essentially raising her.

The next realization I had was that I was looking at the same character. Now, stay with me. Obviously, that is not technically true. But they have the exact same personality. Think about it. They are both analytical. They both have an innate fierceness. They are both blunt. They both believe they are right, and don't care about the other side's viewpoint. They are both muleheaded. They both react to things by lashing out. They are both rebellious. They are both hotheaded. They both have an innate drive to lead. They are both confrontational. All of this is the complete opposite of Legolas, who has been torn between the two of them.

Looking back, I don't know why I didn't see it before. The orc interrogation is another perfect example: Both of them start out the scene pacing. Tauriel reacts to the orc by trying to kill it, and when Thranduil stops her, she doesn't hesitate to give him a look of fury and defiance. Thranduil won't budge either, ordering her to leave again. They have a stare off, until Tauriel finally gives in, stalking away. Thranduil then reacts to the orc by lashing out and killing it. He stomps on its leg, ready to bash it into the ground. He doesn't give Legolas answers, but stalks away.

Tauriel is not going to kill Thranduil. She makes no movement to loose the arrow, but keeps lashing out verbally. Thranduil is not going to kill Tauriel. He makes no movement to do so, and there is more than enough time in that pause. He's thinking about his past, a past that is filled with loved ones dying.

Legolas appears out of nowhere, pushing Thranduil's sword away with Orcrist. Tauriel closes her eyes, letting out a relieved gasp and slumping slightly. She knows Legolas is there for her. Thranduil looks at Legolas, who says angrily, “If you harm her,” Thranduil looks shocked, “you will have to kill me.” Thranduil looks down, heartbroken. Legolas turns to Tauriel, “I will go with you.” They leave for Ravenhill. Thranduil has not looked back up.

My last realization about this scene. Of course Thranduil tried to drive a wedge between Legolas and Tauriel. Because of his elven ability (along with his closeness to both of them), Thranduil would have known there was nothing romantic between Legolas and Tauriel. However, it was an excellent way to disturb and slight Tauriel. And now it is clear why he did so - they have been at odds for a while (it was clear that was not their first conversation on the subject of going beyond their borders), she is far too much like himself, and she yearns to go out and bring the fight to the enemy. He fears that she will take Legolas away – and she does.
[cut]
Tauriel is sitting there, caressing Kíli's cheek. She doesn't look up, saying, “They want to bury him.” They want to take him away. Thranduil watches her, quietly saying, “Yes.” Tauriel looks up slightly, “If this is love, I do not want it,” she says, shaking her head slightly. She looks at him and pleads, “Take it from me. Please.” Take this pain away. Thranduil moves closer slightly, but does not say anything. Tauriel's eyes close, and she turns her head away, crying in agony, while holding Kíli's hand, “Why does it hurt so much?” She glances at Thranduil and looks away again, lowering her head. Thranduil moves closer, and softly says, tilting his head slightly, “Because it was real.”

Tauriel looks up at him, and realizes what he's saying. Realizes that this anguish is what he experiences every day; and the reason why he has made the decisions he has. It’s not about letting evil become strong, evil is strong. And it will hurt you without mercy. Tauriel finally understands this, and Thranduil.

Tauriel cries, looks down, and puts Kili's hand on her neck, as she leans down to kiss him (their only kiss), before sniffling and caressing his hand. She holds his hand to her shoulder, and turns her face into it.

I just... this last scene... just thinking about it is making me cry. It's so true. Anyone who has lost a loved one has experienced this. And having Thranduil's and Tauriel's arcs end like this... She is young, and heartbroken, and doesn't understand why. She just wants it to stop. If I had any doubts about their relationship, this scene erased them. Tauriel cries out to him, confiding in him, pleading for him to save her and make it all go away. She is, in essence, a young child seeking her fathers comfort.

And Thranduil? He finally understands, validating her and giving his support; just like he did with Legolas. Only what she needs is the opposite of Legolas, and Thranduil knows that. Their arcs end with them finally understanding each other. There is no doubt in my mind that Tauriel returns to the Woodland Realm.

http://theseassong.blogspot.com/...-woodland-realm.html


skyofcoffeebeans
Rivendell

Apr 20, 9:36pm

Post #37 of 46 (2427 views)
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Yes, I'd read relevant portions, I enjoyed the read [In reply to] Can't Post

Think of my post as a response to the essay itself.

You use textual criticism as your main line of argument as a means of refuting what others believe is in the films (i.e. Legolas having a crush on Tauriel). And yet you do your own projecting in your arguments, interjecting your own interpretations that are supported by what you feel rather than what the text says.

So, again, there is absolutely textual evidence that Legolas has feelings for Tauriel, and (correct me if I'm wrong) there is no textual evidence to suggest Thranduil is lying, or even manipulating Tauriel for his own ends. We can absolutely interject our own thoughts and create situations in media using those feelings, but that is not my understanding of textual reasoning, and definitely not grounds for projecting absolute claims onto others like "Thranduil made up the love triangle."

Having said that, I do appreciate the care you've put into what you wrote, and while I don't think Thranduil and Tauriel have identical personalities (Thranduil has a manipulative, flamboyant air about him), your essay helped clarify their dynamic to me in an enlightening way.


Laineth
Lorien

Apr 20, 10:27pm

Post #38 of 46 (2421 views)
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Texts [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Think of my post as a response to the essay itself.

You use textual criticism as your main line of argument as a means of refuting what others believe is in the films (i.e. Legolas having a crush on Tauriel). And yet you do your own projecting in your arguments, interjecting your own interpretations that are supported by what you feel rather than what the text says.

So, again, there is absolutely textual evidence that Legolas has feelings for Tauriel, and (correct me if I'm wrong) there is no textual evidence to suggest Thranduil is lying, or even manipulating Tauriel for his own ends. We can absolutely interject our own thoughts and create situations in media using those feelings, but that is not my understanding of textual reasoning, and definitely not grounds for projecting absolute claims onto others like "Thranduil made up the love triangle."

Having said that, I do appreciate the care you've put into what you wrote, and while I don't think Thranduil and Tauriel have identical personalities (Thranduil has a manipulative, flamboyant air about him), your essay helped clarify their dynamic to me in an enlightening way.


Yes, I love literary/film analysis. It's basically all I do.

I disagree that there is "absolutely textual evidence" of Legolas having romantic feelings for Tauriel. The only thing that implies that is Thranduil's comment - which is deliberately vague and coming from a character with other motives. At the same time, Tauriel's obvious shock and disbelief shows the audience that she has not picked up on any romantic vibes from her best friend.

Analysis is more than words, and it fits perfectly with Thranduil's greater characterization and character arc (which I also went over in my essay, I don't know if you read those parts). These films especially leave a lot in the subtlety and don't get explicit.

Thranduil manipulative? Not really. Stragetic and not conventionally 'nice'? Definitely.

Externally, we know that 'love triangle' was a concept forced on them all by the studio when they came back for pick ups.


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Apr 21, 12:31am

Post #39 of 46 (2415 views)
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I've gotta agree with sky... [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
I disagree that there is "absolutely textual evidence" of Legolas having romantic feelings for Tauriel. The only thing that implies that is Thranduil's comment - which is deliberately vague and coming from a character with other motives. At the same time, Tauriel's obvious shock and disbelief shows the audience that she has not picked up on any romantic vibes from her best friend.


There is evidence within the film, both texual (verbal?) and visual to support Legolas having romantic feelings for Tauriel. The evidence is debatable and inconclusive, but it exists. We have Thranduil's own observation and the words and actions of Legolas himself, especially his willingness to follow Tauriel into exile. To a lesser extend, there are such clues as his glances and body language around the Elf-maiden. None of this constitutes absolute proof, but there is enough to allow viewers to draw subjective conclusions.


In Reply To
Analysis is more than words, and it fits perfectly with Thranduil's greater characterization and character arc (which I also went over in my essay, I don't know if you read those parts). These films especially leave a lot in the subtlety and don't get explicit.

Thranduil manipulative? Not really. Stragetic and not conventionally 'nice'? Definitely.


Thranduil does attempt to manipulate Thorin into doing what he wants (and fails), so 'manipulative' is not completely inaccurate. But I agree that he is much more complex than that.


In Reply To
Externally, we know that 'love triangle' was a concept forced on them all by the studio when they came back for pick ups.


Yes! However, the mutual attraction between Tauriel and Kili seems to be what was added. There is some evidence that an attraction between Legolas and Tauriel might have grown out of the original description for Itaril (relevant text bolded for emphasis):


Quote
[ITARIL] FEMALE, A WOODLAND ELF, this character is one the Silvan Elves. The Silvan Elves are seen as more earthy and practical. Shorter than other elves, she is still quick and lithe and physically adept, being able to fight with both sword and bow. Showing promise as a fighter at a young age, ITARIL was chosen to train to become part of the Woodland King’s Guard. This is the only life she has ever expected to live, until she meets and secretly falls in love with a young ELF LORD. This role will require a wig and contact lenses to be worn. Some prosthetic make-up may also be required. LEAD. AGE: 17–27. ACCENT ‐ STANDARD R.P.


It's generally thought that the young ELF LORD was the same character elsewhere described as an ELF WARRIOR (an ELF-LORD of RIVENDELL), but that is far from certain and might have simply been changed to be Legolas in any case.

"I may be on the side of the angels, but do not think for one second that I am one of them." - Sherlock

(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Apr 21, 12:35am)


Laineth
Lorien

Apr 21, 3:19am

Post #40 of 46 (2393 views)
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Romance? [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To

In Reply To
I disagree that there is "absolutely textual evidence" of Legolas having romantic feelings for Tauriel. The only thing that implies that is Thranduil's comment - which is deliberately vague and coming from a character with other motives. At the same time, Tauriel's obvious shock and disbelief shows the audience that she has not picked up on any romantic vibes from her best friend.


There is evidence within the film, both texual (verbal?) and visual to support Legolas having romantic feelings for Tauriel. The evidence is debatable and inconclusive, but it exists. We have Thranduil's own observation and the words and actions of Legolas himself, especially his willingness to follow Tauriel into exile. To a lesser extend, there are such clues as his glances and body language around the Elf-maiden. None of this constitutes absolute proof, but there is enough to allow viewers to draw subjective conclusions.


In Reply To
Analysis is more than words, and it fits perfectly with Thranduil's greater characterization and character arc (which I also went over in my essay, I don't know if you read those parts). These films especially leave a lot in the subtlety and don't get explicit.

Thranduil manipulative? Not really. Stragetic and not conventionally 'nice'? Definitely.


Thranduil does attempt to manipulate Thorin into doing what he wants (and fails), so 'manipulative' is not completely inaccurate. But I agree that he is much more complex than that.


In Reply To
Externally, we know that 'love triangle' was a concept forced on them all by the studio when they came back for pick ups.


Yes! However, the mutual attraction between Tauriel and Kili seems to be what was added. There is some evidence that an attraction between Legolas and Tauriel might have grown out of the original description for Itaril (relevant text bolded for emphasis):


Quote
[ITARIL] FEMALE, A WOODLAND ELF, this character is one the Silvan Elves. The Silvan Elves are seen as more earthy and practical. Shorter than other elves, she is still quick and lithe and physically adept, being able to fight with both sword and bow. Showing promise as a fighter at a young age, ITARIL was chosen to train to become part of the Woodland King’s Guard. This is the only life she has ever expected to live, until she meets and secretly falls in love with a young ELF LORD. This role will require a wig and contact lenses to be worn. Some prosthetic make-up may also be required. LEAD. AGE: 17–27. ACCENT ‐ STANDARD R.P.


It's generally thought that the young ELF LORD was the same character elsewhere described as an ELF WARRIOR (an ELF-LORD of RIVENDELL), but that is far from certain and might have simply been changed to be Legolas in any case.


Legolas definitely loves Tauriel deeply. But what is there to imply romantic love? Nothing from Legolas. He never looks angry, gets jealous, or questions Tauriel. He says Kili is ugly, but that is after he said it would be his pleasure to kill Thorin and that Gimli was a horrid goblin mutant. His expression doesn't even really change when Kili gives Tauriel his runestone, and his reaction to Kiliel is the crucial part that should prove if his love is platonic or romantic. If Legolas really did have romantic feelings for Tauriel we should see it in his actions and words, and they should be severe. He can love Tauriel deeply and unconditionally without there being anything romantic.

http://screencapped.org/...66#top_display_media

http://screencapped.org/...72#top_display_media

http://screencapped.org/...41#top_display_media

http://screencapped.org/...18#top_display_media

As someone who is a gray aromantic/asexual, one of the most liberating things for me about Tolkien's works is the consistent emphasis on deep platonic love, and all six films did a wonderful job of portraying those many relationships. The only thing that differs Legolas and Tauriel from those other relationships is Thranduil's deliberately vague comments.

~*~

I was not aware of that part of the early script. All of the interviews - Peter, Philippa, Evangeline, and Orlando - talk about Legolas's 'part' being forced on by the studio. Orlando especially seemed to get very uncomfortable and stressed several times that elves don't feel like we do so it can't be classified in our terms.


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Apr 21, 7:02am

Post #41 of 46 (2378 views)
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Subjectivity [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Legolas definitely loves Tauriel deeply. But what is there to imply romantic love? Nothing from Legolas. He never looks angry, gets jealous, or questions Tauriel. He says Kili is ugly, but that is after he said it would be his pleasure to kill Thorin and that Gimli was a horrid goblin mutant. His expression doesn't even really change when Kili gives Tauriel his runestone, and his reaction to Kiliel is the crucial part that should prove if his love is platonic or romantic. If Legolas really did have romantic feelings for Tauriel we should see it in his actions and words, and they should be severe. He can love Tauriel deeply and unconditionally without there being anything romantic...

...As someone who is a gray aromantic/asexual, one of the most liberating things for me about Tolkien's works is the consistent emphasis on deep platonic love, and all six films did a wonderful job of portraying those many relationships. The only thing that differs Legolas and Tauriel from those other relationships is Thranduil's deliberately vague comments.


You are stating your subjective opinion as though it was absolute fact. It is not. Barring any statements from Peter Jackson himself or from one of his co-writers we cannot know the full truth of Legolas' intended feelings towards Tauriel in the films. I do not find Thranduil's comment to Tauriel to be particularly vague, only subtle. What he is saying is very clear and he has no reason to be lying about it.


In Reply To
I was not aware of that part of the early script. All of the interviews - Peter, Philippa, Evangeline, and Orlando - talk about Legolas's 'part' being forced on by the studio. Orlando especially seemed to get very uncomfortable and stressed several times that elves don't feel like we do so it can't be classified in our terms.


Yes, Legolas was originally only supposed to cameo in these films. That suggests that the previous part of the ELF-LORD might have been rewritten in order to expand Legolas' role in the narrative. We cannot know this with any certainty without further insights from the cast or crew. I'm not sure what your final statement is based on, though. Elves would have experienced the same range of emotions as human beings; the difference would lie in the perspective bestowed on them by their immortality.

"I may be on the side of the angels, but do not think for one second that I am one of them." - Sherlock

(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Apr 21, 7:06am)


skyofcoffeebeans
Rivendell

Apr 21, 8:14pm

Post #42 of 46 (2357 views)
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Hmmm [In reply to] Can't Post


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Legolas definitely loves Tauriel deeply. But what is there to imply romantic love? Nothing from Legolas. He never looks angry, gets jealous, or questions Tauriel.


Again, there is textual evidence that one can use to make an argument that Legolas has romantic feelings towards Tauriel. In the films I have watched, Legolas often looks angry, gets jealous, and questions (or prods) Tauriel about her choices. I'm not saying you have to find my line of thinking convincing. But you seem to believe that this reading of the film is fundamentally invalid, and that is just as incorrect as me declaring that your reading is invalid. It is not – but both are largely only in our heads and depend on our interpretations of Orlando Bloom's grade-A vanilla acting choices.

That is, until you can provide textual evidence that indicates otherwise. Your subjective analyses of characters' facial expressions often run counter to what I see onscreen. And that just sometimes happens in a visual medium.

And I appreciate your comments on Tolkien's incorporations of aromantic / asexual love, a concept that has largely evaporated from 20th / 21st century life, at least in popular culture. It is one of the enduring qualities of Tolkien's work. That's one reason why I wouldn't say that your interpretation lacks merit.

And it's definitely clear that studio interference forced the love triangle onto the films. I empathize with attempts to remove its influence on the narrative, either diegetically (these rhetorical arguments) or non-diegetically (cutting out any indication that Legolas has feelings for Tauriel altogether).


(This post was edited by skyofcoffeebeans on Apr 21, 8:19pm)


Laineth
Lorien

Apr 23, 3:41pm

Post #43 of 46 (2262 views)
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Subjectivity [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To

In Reply To
Legolas definitely loves Tauriel deeply. But what is there to imply romantic love? Nothing from Legolas. He never looks angry, gets jealous, or questions Tauriel. He says Kili is ugly, but that is after he said it would be his pleasure to kill Thorin and that Gimli was a horrid goblin mutant. His expression doesn't even really change when Kili gives Tauriel his runestone, and his reaction to Kiliel is the crucial part that should prove if his love is platonic or romantic. If Legolas really did have romantic feelings for Tauriel we should see it in his actions and words, and they should be severe. He can love Tauriel deeply and unconditionally without there being anything romantic...

...As someone who is a gray aromantic/asexual, one of the most liberating things for me about Tolkien's works is the consistent emphasis on deep platonic love, and all six films did a wonderful job of portraying those many relationships. The only thing that differs Legolas and Tauriel from those other relationships is Thranduil's deliberately vague comments.


You are stating your subjective opinion as though it was absolute fact. It is not. Barring any statements from Peter Jackson himself or from one of his co-writers we cannot know the full truth of Legolas' intended feelings towards Tauriel in the films. I do not find Thranduil's comment to Tauriel to be particularly vague, only subtle. What he is saying is very clear and he has no reason to be lying about it.


In Reply To
I was not aware of that part of the early script. All of the interviews - Peter, Philippa, Evangeline, and Orlando - talk about Legolas's 'part' being forced on by the studio. Orlando especially seemed to get very uncomfortable and stressed several times that elves don't feel like we do so it can't be classified in our terms.


Yes, Legolas was originally only supposed to cameo in these films. That suggests that the previous part of the ELF-LORD might have been rewritten in order to expand Legolas' role in the narrative. We cannot know this with any certainty without further insights from the cast or crew. I'm not sure what your final statement is based on, though. Elves would have experienced the same range of emotions as human beings; the difference would lie in the perspective bestowed on them by their immortality.


I can agree that it's ambiguous and that we can't say with absolute certainty either way. I was giving my reasoning for why it's not romantic and why Thranduil would want to imply it was.

My last line was a paraphrase of several of Orlando's statements. He even went so far in one of them to say Legolas never got jealous of Kili because elves don't get jealous. Both Lee and Evangeline have talked about the Silmarillion, so Orlando has to know that's not true. But it is more evidence of just how uncomfortable the subject makes him.

I'm not at home so I don't have my bookmarks with the interviews; most are videos. A quick google search only pulled up this one:

"The connection between Legolas and Tauriel which I think he cares very deeply for her. I think it’s as a friend, as somebody who he has fought alongside, somebody who is on the journey with him and who he is on the journey with, and they’re brethren."
https://www.facebook.com/...ers-859917030762143/


Laineth
Lorien

Apr 23, 4:02pm

Post #44 of 46 (2258 views)
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Subjectivity [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To

In Reply To
Legolas definitely loves Tauriel deeply. But what is there to imply romantic love? Nothing from Legolas. He never looks angry, gets jealous, or questions Tauriel.


Again, there is textual evidence that one can use to make an argument that Legolas has romantic feelings towards Tauriel. In the films I have watched, Legolas often looks angry, gets jealous, and questions (or prods) Tauriel about her choices. I'm not saying you have to find my line of thinking convincing. But you seem to believe that this reading of the film is fundamentally invalid, and that is just as incorrect as me declaring that your reading is invalid. It is not – but both are largely only in our heads and depend on our interpretations of Orlando Bloom's grade-A vanilla acting choices.

That is, until you can provide textual evidence that indicates otherwise. Your subjective analyses of characters' facial expressions often run counter to what I see onscreen. And that just sometimes happens in a visual medium.

And I appreciate your comments on Tolkien's incorporations of aromantic / asexual love, a concept that has largely evaporated from 20th / 21st century life, at least in popular culture. It is one of the enduring qualities of Tolkien's work. That's one reason why I wouldn't say that your interpretation lacks merit.

And it's definitely clear that studio interference forced the love triangle onto the films. I empathize with attempts to remove its influence on the narrative, either diegetically (these rhetorical arguments) or non-diegetically (cutting out any indication that Legolas has feelings for Tauriel altogether).


I agree that the matter is ambiguous and is hard to state for certain, I was giving my analysis of why it is not. We are of course free to disagree!

I am curious as to what actions/expressions you see as jealousy and prodding? Legolas is pretty strong with his "Why does the dwarf stare at you?" But after Tauriel's dreamy and infatuated response his reply is much more mild.

Thank you for what you said about platonic love. If someone wants to ship Frodo/Sam (for example) that's fine, but when people insist that their canon actions must be romantic and sexual I get very uncomfortable.


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Apr 23, 4:04pm

Post #45 of 46 (2258 views)
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Okay. [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm not sure that I would accept Orlando Bloom as an expert on whether Elves can feel jealousy (in fact I am certain that I would not). Without citing specific examples, I think that The Silmarillion shows that Elves can be just as flawed as Men.

"I may be on the side of the angels, but do not think for one second that I am one of them." - Sherlock


Laineth
Lorien

Apr 23, 5:10pm

Post #46 of 46 (2254 views)
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Yeah [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
I'm not sure that I would accept Orlando Bloom as an expert on whether Elves can feel jealousy (in fact I am certain that I would not). Without citing specific examples, I think that The Silmarillion shows that Elves can be just as flawed as Men.


Elves definitely feel jealousy. But the fact that Orlando went so far to say that - when we know for sure both Lee and Evangeline relied heavily on the Silmarillion - says a lot about Orlando's feelings on the 'love triangle' subject.

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