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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
Tauriel should have died
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Darth Crumb
The Shire

Apr 17, 3:13pm

Post #1 of 46 (3239 views)
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Tauriel should have died Can't Post

I'm thinking it would have been more effective in the movie if Tauriel had died and taken Bolg with her when she charged him over the cliff.

It would explain (in the movieverse) why she never appears in later movies, would still let Thranduil realize "the love was real" in a stronger way, and would give Legolas even more reason to not want to stick around. It just seems like a more Tolkien-like end.

It would also have spared us the neverending Legolas/Bolg fight. Legolas could still have had something heroic to do by shooting arrows at the orcs charging Thorin.


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Apr 17, 3:42pm

Post #2 of 46 (3183 views)
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Tauriel taking out Bolg? [In reply to] Can't Post

Fans howled as it was when Beorn wasn't the one who slew Bolg and his bodyguards. Can you imagine the reaction if the Orc-leader was taken down by a non-canon character? No thanks! At least Legolas would have existed in Tolkien's larger legendarium, though Tolkien had not yet invented him when he wrote The Hobbit.

Unfortunately, since Legolas was a major supporting character in The Lord of the Rings the feeling seems to have been that he needed to have a significant role in the Battle of Five Armies, as opposed to being given a mere cameo appearance.

I just assume that, if Tauriel was still alive during the War of the Ring, she was occupied by events in and around Mirkwood, maybe even becoming involved in the defense of Dale and Erebor.

"I may be on the side of the angels, but do not think for one second that I am one of them." - Sherlock

(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Apr 17, 3:45pm)


jlj93byu
Bree

Apr 17, 4:09pm

Post #3 of 46 (3171 views)
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I thought she would [In reply to] Can't Post

I must admit, going into BOTFA I was predicting she would. I was fully expecting her to heroically bite the dust, and was pleasantly surprised when she did not.


Kilidoescartwheels
Tol Eressea


Apr 17, 4:58pm

Post #4 of 46 (3168 views)
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No reason to explain why [In reply to] Can't Post

she wasn't in the later movies, being non-canon & all. Assuming she got to return to Mirkwood, that's all the explanation needed. And even if she didn't, there's no reason to think Legolas would have seen her in either Rivendell or Lothlorien. She could have sailed west with the other wood-elves. I admit I was less than happy with the Kili/Tauriel/Bolg scene, but I don't think her dying would have made it any more palatable. Most people on TORn have a bigger problem with the fact that Fili & Kili died separately, and not "defending Thorin with shield and body." Plus there's the Beorn thing. As for Legolas not sticking around, well he basically took Tauriel's side over his father, so perhaps he thought if she were banished, he ought to be as well.


I get what you're saying about that never-ending fight scene, and the reason for the grudge match was SO DUMB!!! Thorin v. Azog: You killed my grandfather & nephew, prepare to die! Legolas v. Bolg: You bloodied my nose, prepare to die! Yeah, pretty lameCrazy

I'm not scared to be seen, I make no apologies - this is me!

from The Greatest Showman




Laineth
Lorien

Apr 18, 3:46am

Post #5 of 46 (3122 views)
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Tauriel and Legolas [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
she wasn't in the later movies, being non-canon & all. Assuming she got to return to Mirkwood, that's all the explanation needed. And even if she didn't, there's no reason to think Legolas would have seen her in either Rivendell or Lothlorien. She could have sailed west with the other wood-elves. I admit I was less than happy with the Kili/Tauriel/Bolg scene, but I don't think her dying would have made it any more palatable. Most people on TORn have a bigger problem with the fact that Fili & Kili died separately, and not "defending Thorin with shield and body." Plus there's the Beorn thing. As for Legolas not sticking around, well he basically took Tauriel's side over his father, so perhaps he thought if she were banished, he ought to be as well.


I get what you're saying about that never-ending fight scene, and the reason for the grudge match was SO DUMB!!! Thorin v. Azog: You killed my grandfather & nephew, prepare to die! Legolas v. Bolg: You bloodied my nose, prepare to die! Yeah, pretty lameCrazy


Well to be fair, Bolg had just injured and was trying to kill Legolas's best friend/sister. He went after Bolg to distract Bolg from the unconscious Tauriel.

I've never liked Beorn killing Bolg, because he's a minor character with no emotional investment in the plot. I don't mind Legolas killing Bolg because Thorin and Azog are the main/ultimate face off.

Likewise, Fili and Kili dying for Thorin was used by Tolkien as an excuse for the lack of character development - all we see between them in the book is Thorin mentioning that they are his nephews in Laketown. Instead, the films show their bond, and Kili and Thorin's agony and trauma at Fili's death. There is far more development in the films than in the book.

I'm happy with the Tauriel/Kili/Bolg scene because Tauriel fights Bolg much better and longer than Kili does, and Kili doesn't take a killing blow to save Tauriel. Also, here is a great post analyzing everyone's fighting styles:

http://askcallie.tumblr.com/...lg-in-the-hobbit-the

With how things ended between Tauriel and Thranduil, I'm certain she returned to Mirkwood. Legolas mentions in both book and film LotR that war has already come to Mirkwood and Erebor.


Kilidoescartwheels
Tol Eressea


Apr 18, 2:22pm

Post #6 of 46 (3096 views)
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WOW! Someone else agrees with me! [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
Likewise, Fili and Kili dying for Thorin was used by Tolkien as an excuse for the lack of character development - all we see between them in the book is Thorin mentioning that they are his nephews in Laketown. Instead, the films show their bond, and Kili and Thorin's agony and trauma at Fili's death. There is far more development in the films than in the book.


One of my bigger complaints with the book is the lack of character development, but I gotta cut Tolkien a little slack here as he was still working on his writing style. I hated both the fact that he killed off both nephews and the way he did it, kind of like an afterthought - "oh yeah, they died, too." But the fact that PJ didn't have them die together is a common complaint on this board. Interesting that you didn't like Beorn killing Bolg, I don't suppose I care that much one way or another. Yeah, Legolas was fighting to protect Tauriel, and it's that love triangle that to me makes this story less good. I personally would have preferred Tauriel going to aid the Dwarves because it was the right thing to do, instead of trying (and failing) to protect her crush, but I guess WB decided the movie needed a romantic subplotFrown I look forward to reading the article on their fighting styles, thanks for the link!Wink

I'm not scared to be seen, I make no apologies - this is me!

from The Greatest Showman




skyofcoffeebeans
Bree

Apr 18, 2:45pm

Post #7 of 46 (3091 views)
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I think the heart of that complaint ... [In reply to] Can't Post

... isn't that Kili and Fili don't die in the same moment. Instead it's that some audience members feel less pathos and emotion for the scene because of the way it is constructed. As it stands, the trauma in this scene is broken into two portions– trauma for the downfall of the line of Durin, and trauma for Tauriel and Kili's mutual loss.

For some people, this creates a thematic incision that ultimately makes the climax of the film less impactful because Kili's death doesn't necessarily mean anything in relation to Fili and Thorin's death. And it's worse if you don't buy the love story between Kili and Tauriel.

I think a lot of people wanted a sense of thematic unity, and Kili dying defending Thorin instead of Tauriel might have brought more weight to the scene.

Even a minor addition like Thorin understanding that Kili has died and he is all that is left of the Line of Durin might have made his final stand against Azog feel more meaningful. Instead, (I feel) it has the weight of a final boss battle in a video game. Thorin isn't given the moment to feel the magnitude of what has transpired– and the stakes of what it means if the Line of Durin falls is never made entirely clear, except that as audience members, we obviously wouldn't like it if we like these characters.

Again, I think this would have been solved with more time to clarify this sequence, but the studios weren't as flexible with reshoots and scheduling as New Line was in the LOTR days.


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Apr 18, 3:15pm

Post #8 of 46 (3086 views)
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Thorin thought he was the Last? [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Even a minor addition like Thorin understanding that Kili has died and he is all that is left of the Line of Durin might have made his final stand against Azog feel more meaningful.


Thorin did not represent the end of the Line of Durin though. His death did mark the end of the branch that started with his grandfather Thror. The Line would continue through Dain, son of Nain, son of Gror. Of course Thorin couldn't know that Dain would survive the Battle of Five Armies and we don't know if he was even aware of his namesake: Thorin Stonehelm, son of Dain.

Of course we never learn about Thorin III in The Hobbit so as far as we know from that, we have entirely lost the next generation of the Sons of Durin; and that's what makes it poignant.

"I may be on the side of the angels, but do not think for one second that I am one of them." - Sherlock

(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Apr 18, 3:16pm)


L. Ron Halfelven
Grey Havens


Apr 18, 3:50pm

Post #9 of 46 (3072 views)
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"Why does it hurt so much?" "Because it's an orc arrow, silly."/ [In reply to] Can't Post

 

And Rose drew him in, and set him on the harpsichord bench, and put little Wilhelm Friedemann upon his lap.

He began composing a fugue. 'Well, I'm Bach,' he said.


Laineth
Lorien

Apr 18, 4:34pm

Post #10 of 46 (3068 views)
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Tauriel [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To

Quote
Likewise, Fili and Kili dying for Thorin was used by Tolkien as an excuse for the lack of character development - all we see between them in the book is Thorin mentioning that they are his nephews in Laketown. Instead, the films show their bond, and Kili and Thorin's agony and trauma at Fili's death. There is far more development in the films than in the book.


One of my bigger complaints with the book is the lack of character development, but I gotta cut Tolkien a little slack here as he was still working on his writing style. I hated both the fact that he killed off both nephews and the way he did it, kind of like an afterthought - "oh yeah, they died, too." But the fact that PJ didn't have them die together is a common complaint on this board. Interesting that you didn't like Beorn killing Bolg, I don't suppose I care that much one way or another. Yeah, Legolas was fighting to protect Tauriel, and it's that love triangle that to me makes this story less good. I personally would have preferred Tauriel going to aid the Dwarves because it was the right thing to do, instead of trying (and failing) to protect her crush, but I guess WB decided the movie needed a romantic subplotFrown I look forward to reading the article on their fighting styles, thanks for the link!Wink


I think I'm one of the few people in the world who doesn't like the book. Smile

Ah, but the love triangle is just Thranduil throwing shade, and Tauriel does take action because it's the right thing to do.

I go over every scene in detail in my Tauriel essay, if you're interested in my evidence/reasoning:

http://theseassong.blogspot.com/...-woodland-realm.html


Laineth
Lorien

Apr 18, 4:41pm

Post #11 of 46 (3066 views)
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Deaths [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
... isn't that Kili and Fili don't die in the same moment. Instead it's that some audience members feel less pathos and emotion for the scene because of the way it is constructed. As it stands, the trauma in this scene is broken into two portions– trauma for the downfall of the line of Durin, and trauma for Tauriel and Kili's mutual loss.

For some people, this creates a thematic incision that ultimately makes the climax of the film less impactful because Kili's death doesn't necessarily mean anything in relation to Fili and Thorin's death. And it's worse if you don't buy the love story between Kili and Tauriel.

I think a lot of people wanted a sense of thematic unity, and Kili dying defending Thorin instead of Tauriel might have brought more weight to the scene.

Even a minor addition like Thorin understanding that Kili has died and he is all that is left of the Line of Durin might have made his final stand against Azog feel more meaningful. Instead, (I feel) it has the weight of a final boss battle in a video game. Thorin isn't given the moment to feel the magnitude of what has transpired– and the stakes of what it means if the Line of Durin falls is never made entirely clear, except that as audience members, we obviously wouldn't like it if we like these characters.

Again, I think this would have been solved with more time to clarify this sequence, but the studios weren't as flexible with reshoots and scheduling as New Line was in the LOTR days.


It's all personal opinion - I think the deaths are perfect, and sob every time. By having Kili, Thorin, Dwalin, and Bilbo watching instead of fighting makes us focus fully on the horror and trauma of Fili's death, and how it affects the others. Also, Kili doesn't die for Tauriel. He throws himself forward in rage and grief, determined to avenge his brother. He then goes to fight alongside Tauriel - he doesn't take a killing blow for her.


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Apr 18, 5:13pm

Post #12 of 46 (3059 views)
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Legolas/Tauriel (Legoriel?) [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Ah, but the love triangle is just Thranduil throwing shade...


I think not entirely. Tauriel's reaction to the Elvenking's comment indicates that she was crushing on Leggy at least a little. And I think that Thranduil is correct that his son also felt some attraction. It's just that those feelings are never actually allowed to go anywhere. Maybe Thranduil should have been less picky about a potential daughter-in-law (perhaps Tauriel's parents were East-elves and not at least Teleri? All we know of her ancestry is that she was a Wood-elf seemingly not of the Sindar).

"I may be on the side of the angels, but do not think for one second that I am one of them." - Sherlock

(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Apr 18, 5:15pm)


skyofcoffeebeans
Bree

Apr 18, 5:45pm

Post #13 of 46 (3039 views)
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Some things are a matter of opinion... [In reply to] Can't Post

...like whether or not one finds a sequence poignant. Some are misreadings of a scene.


Quote
Also, Kili doesn't die for Tauriel.


Kili dies defending Tauriel from Bolg.


Quote
He throws himself forward in rage and grief, determined to avenge his brother.


This is supported by the sequence.


Quote
He then goes to fight alongside Tauriel


This is not. Tauriel is on the brink of certain death. Kili's arrival saves her, and she is no longer in a position to fight alongside anyone. Otherwise, she would continue to engage in Legolas's fight with Bolg. While Kili doesn't defeat Bolg, he successfully saves Tauriel from certain death in this moment, and would not have died if he hadn't made the attempt. Peter's directorial choices in this sequence speak for themselves:






skyofcoffeebeans
Bree

Apr 18, 6:00pm

Post #14 of 46 (3032 views)
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Lots of interesting stuff on your blog [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks for the link.


Kilidoescartwheels
Tol Eressea


Apr 18, 6:04pm

Post #15 of 46 (3035 views)
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LOL! [In reply to] Can't Post

An Elf arrow wouldn't hurt nearly so muchLaughLaughLaugh

I'm not scared to be seen, I make no apologies - this is me!

from The Greatest Showman




Laineth
Lorien

Apr 18, 6:27pm

Post #16 of 46 (3024 views)
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Wording [In reply to] Can't Post

I should have worded that better. I meant that Kili didn't take a killing blow for Tauriel. He fought Bolg and lost. He still probably would have died - Azog and Bolg were focused on killing the line of Durin, Bolg probably would have gone after Kili after killing Tauriel. For his part, Kili was completely taken over by rage and grief and was originally trying to get to Azog to avenge Fili. As great a warrior as he is, he was still incredibly outmatched in all possible scenarios.


Laineth
Lorien

Apr 18, 6:29pm

Post #17 of 46 (3022 views)
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Agree to disagree [In reply to] Can't Post

We'll have to agree to disagree on this.


Laineth
Lorien

Apr 18, 6:31pm

Post #18 of 46 (3021 views)
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You're welcome! [In reply to] Can't Post

Smile


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Apr 18, 6:36pm

Post #19 of 46 (3019 views)
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Okay. [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
We'll have to agree to disagree on this.


I suppose so. I just don't see any way, myself, to interpret the scene differently, at least are far as Tauriel's feelings are concerned. Even so, you could be correct and I could be reading too much into her facial expressions, body language and dialogue.

"I may be on the side of the angels, but do not think for one second that I am one of them." - Sherlock


skyofcoffeebeans
Bree

Apr 18, 6:41pm

Post #20 of 46 (3015 views)
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Yeah [In reply to] Can't Post

One can concede the argument (or even have their own head-canon) but all textual evidence indicates mutual feelings of desire between Tauriel and Legolas that are ultimately not expressed because of class and Kili’s timely arrival.


Noria
Gondor

Apr 19, 5:09pm

Post #21 of 46 (2950 views)
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I agree Otaku-sempai [In reply to] Can't Post

The way I read it - there was a something unacknowledged between Tauriel and Legolas that was shot down by Thranduil. You could see it in her face. IMO that contributed to Tauriel's dissatisfaction and disillusionment with the elitist, callous and isolationist Thranduil and her rebellion against his dictates. Plus she met the bright and shiny Kili, a breath of fresh air in the stifled world of the Woodland Realm.

In the battle, after Fili's death Kili was in berserker mode against the Orcs until he heard Tauriel call his name and then he fought to reach her. He attacked Bolg but was overmatched, as Tauriel was, and died.
Tauriel would have died too if Legolas had not arrived.

After the battle, it looked to me that Thranduil had repented of his behavior and would accept Tauriel back. I see no reason for death to be the only reason that she didn't appear in LotR; neither did Thranduil appear. But possibly they were involved in the battles in the North - in Mirkwood or Erebor.


Darkstone
Immortal


Apr 19, 5:55pm

Post #22 of 46 (2934 views)
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If she died in BoFA then how could she appear in FOTR? [In reply to] Can't Post

Lot_R_Fellowship_of_the_Ring_00411


I note she does die in the book:


"Often we let him mount up to the highest branches, until he felt the free wind; but we set a guard at the tree's foot. One day he refused to come down, and the guards had no mind to climb after him: he had learned the trick of clinging to boughs with his feet as well as with his hands; so they sat by the tree far into the night.
"It was that very night of summer, yet moonless and starless, that Orcs came on us at unawares. We drove them off after some time; they were many and fierce, but they came from over the mountains, and were unused to the woods. When the battle was over, we found that Gollum was gone, and his guards were slain or taken."

-The Council of Elrond

******************************************
“Did you say 'You Shall Not Pass' or 'You Shall Not Sass'?" asked the Balrog.

"I said 'You Shall Not Pass,'” replied Gandalf; "and I wish you wouldn't keep appearing and vanishing so suddenly: you make one quite giddy."

"All right," said the Balrog; and this time it vanished quite slowly, beginning with the end of its wings, and ending with its shadow, which remained some time after the rest of it had gone.

'Well! I've often seen wings without a Balrog,' thought Gandalf; `but a Balrog without wings! It's the most curious thing I ever saw in my life!’

-The Adventures of Gandalf in Middle-earth Land




Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Apr 19, 8:51pm

Post #23 of 46 (2925 views)
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Oooo-kay! [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
I note she does die in the book:


"Often we let him mount up to the highest branches, until he felt the free wind; but we set a guard at the tree's foot. One day he refused to come down, and the guards had no mind to climb after him: he had learned the trick of clinging to boughs with his feet as well as with his hands; so they sat by the tree far into the night.
"It was that very night of summer, yet moonless and starless, that Orcs came on us at unawares. We drove them off after some time; they were many and fierce, but they came from over the mountains, and were unused to the woods. When the battle was over, we found that Gollum was gone, and his guards were slain or taken."

-The Council of Elrond


Sure, this character that Tolkien never invented must have been one of Gollum's guards. Because that's not a bit of a stretch AT ALL. Laugh

Sarcasm? Who, me? Wink

Here's a thought: If Tauriel never perished or took ship into the West, she would still be younger today than Elrond was at the end of the Third Age. It would be entirely possible for her to still exist (in faded form) in the modern world. Maybe she's reading over your shoulder. Tongue

"I may be on the side of the angels, but do not think for one second that I am one of them." - Sherlock

(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Apr 19, 9:01pm)


Darkstone
Immortal


Apr 19, 9:15pm

Post #24 of 46 (2909 views)
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Well [In reply to] Can't Post

I would think a prisoner of Gollum's importance would warrant the personal attention of the chief of the guards.

And yes, "the chief of the guards" is indeed a Tolkien character:

The evening meal had been taken to the prisoners. The guards were tramping away down the passages taking the torch-light with them and leaving everything in darkness. Then Bilbo heard the king’s butler bidding the chief of the guards good-night.
"Now come with me,” he said, “and taste the new wine that has just come in. I shall be hard at work tonight clearing the cellars of the empty wood, so let us have a drink first to help the labour.”
"Very good,” laughed the chief of the guards. “I’ll taste with you, and see if it is fit for the king’s table. There is a feast tonight and it would not do to send up poor stuff!”

-Barrels Out of Bond

******************************************
“Did you say 'You Shall Not Pass' or 'You Shall Not Sass'?" asked the Balrog.

"I said 'You Shall Not Pass,'” replied Gandalf; "and I wish you wouldn't keep appearing and vanishing so suddenly: you make one quite giddy."

"All right," said the Balrog; and this time it vanished quite slowly, beginning with the end of its wings, and ending with its shadow, which remained some time after the rest of it had gone.

'Well! I've often seen wings without a Balrog,' thought Gandalf; `but a Balrog without wings! It's the most curious thing I ever saw in my life!’

-The Adventures of Gandalf in Middle-earth Land




Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Apr 19, 9:32pm

Post #25 of 46 (2904 views)
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Not Tauriel [In reply to] Can't Post

Except that the chief of the Wood-elf guards in The Desolation of Smaug is not Tauriel, but a character named Elros (presumably no relation to Elrond). Tauriel is only one captain among many.

You may be sly, but so am I. No pipeweed for you! Sly

"I may be on the side of the angels, but do not think for one second that I am one of them." - Sherlock

(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Apr 19, 9:34pm)

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