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Looking for Information on Third age Army Sizes

Tolkien R.R.J
The Shire


Apr 15, 4:24pm

Post #1 of 10 (1616 views)
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Looking for Information on Third age Army Sizes Can't Post

Just read an amazing thread on the subject on another Tolkien forum

Armies of Middle Earth
http://www.thetolkienforum.com/index.php?threads/armies-of-middle-earth.4431/#IgdxCksJSxY5VEEp.99


and wanted to see if anyone here had information regarding population sizes for the nations of middle earth, or estimates on the size of the armies during the third age.

Thanks.

I am a Christian, that fact can be deduced from my stories.
-J.R.R Tolkien

A free society isn't something nice if you can get it, its worth laboring, fighting and dying for. The reason free people of the west fight Mordor to preserve their freedom.
J.R.R Tolkien

I am in fact a Hobbit (in all but size). I like gardens, trees and unmechanized farmlands; I smoke a pipe, and like good plain food (unrefrigerated), but detest French cooking; I like, and even dare to wear in these dull days, ornamental waistcoats. I am fond of mushrooms (out of a field); have a very simple sense of humour (which even my appreciative critics find tiresome); I go to bed late and get up late.
J.R.R Tolkien


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Apr 15, 4:54pm

Post #2 of 10 (1595 views)
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The Atlas of Middle-earth [In reply to] Can't Post

The late Karen Wynn Fonstad's The Atlas of Middle-earth has much of the information that you want, particularly concerning armies and military engagements. For example:

Din's Army: 500 Dwarves.
Thranduil's Army: At least 1000 spearmen plus archers (around 2000 to 2500 in all?)
Bard's Army: 200 to 300?

Goblins and Wargs: A vast host (5000? 10,000?)

So the Free Peoples of the North probably fielded a combined force of about 3000 fighters, give or take a few hundred. Tolkien provided enough of a description of Lake-town that we can estimate its population as between a few hundred to perhaps 1000 people.

Toklien was more specific in his descriptions of battles and forces in The Lord of the Rings and Fonstad was able to provide more accurate numbers.

"I may be on the side of the angels, but do not think for one second that I am one of them." - Sherlock

(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Apr 15, 4:58pm)


Tolkien R.J.J
Bree


Apr 15, 6:44pm

Post #3 of 10 (1572 views)
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Thanks [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
The late Karen Wynn Fonstad's The Atlas of Middle-earth has much of the information that you want, particularly concerning armies and military engagements. For example:

Din's Army: 500 Dwarves.
Thranduil's Army: At least 1000 spearmen plus archers (around 2000 to 2500 in all?)
Bard's Army: 200 to 300?

Goblins and Wargs: A vast host (5000? 10,000?)

So the Free Peoples of the North probably fielded a combined force of about 3000 fighters, give or take a few hundred. Tolkien provided enough of a description of Lake-town that we can estimate its population as between a few hundred to perhaps 1000 people.

Toklien was more specific in his descriptions of battles and forces in The Lord of the Rings and Fonstad was able to provide more accurate numbers.



do you have any other info on it?

I am a Christian, that fact can be deduced from my stories.
-J.R.R Tolkien

A free society isn't something nice if you can get it, its worth laboring, fighting and dying for. The reason free people of the west fight Mordor to preserve their freedom.
J.R.R Tolkien

I am in fact a Hobbit (in all but size). I like gardens, trees and unmechanized farmlands; I smoke a pipe, and like good plain food (unrefrigerated), but detest French cooking; I like, and even dare to wear in these dull days, ornamental waistcoats. I am fond of mushrooms (out of a field); have a very simple sense of humour (which even my appreciative critics find tiresome); I go to bed late and get up late.
J.R.R Tolkien



Tolkien R.J.J
Bree


Apr 15, 7:52pm

Post #4 of 10 (1565 views)
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Just ordered the atlas of middle earth so thanks for the idea. [In reply to] Can't Post

Just ordered the atlas of middle earth so thanks for the idea.

I am a Christian, that fact can be deduced from my stories.
-J.R.R Tolkien

A free society isn't something nice if you can get it, its worth laboring, fighting and dying for. The reason free people of the west fight Mordor to preserve their freedom.
J.R.R Tolkien

I am in fact a Hobbit (in all but size). I like gardens, trees and unmechanized farmlands; I smoke a pipe, and like good plain food (unrefrigerated), but detest French cooking; I like, and even dare to wear in these dull days, ornamental waistcoats. I am fond of mushrooms (out of a field); have a very simple sense of humour (which even my appreciative critics find tiresome); I go to bed late and get up late.
J.R.R Tolkien



squire
Half-elven


Apr 15, 8:01pm

Post #5 of 10 (1566 views)
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Fonstad specialized in educated guessing, remember [In reply to] Can't Post

As Otaku says in conclusion, "more accurate numbers" can occasionally be found in Lord of the Rings than in The Hobbit. For the first book, as per your question, the one number that is given by Fonstad, for the Dwarves of Dain, is wrong in that the book says "more than five hundred", not five hundred even. The numbers she gives for the other armies are not Tolkien's, who writes about "hosts" or "many", not numbers, in his description of the Battle. So we can actually say they are as many or as few as we want, according to our own understandings of the logistics of the fantasy world.

By the way, TRJJ, do you know the source of one of your Tolkien quotes in your footer: A free society isn't something nice if you can get it, its worth laboring, fighting and dying for. The reason free people of the west fight Mordor to preserve their freedom. It may just be my ignorance, but it just somehow doesn't sound like something he'd say, at least not in those exact words. Thanks if you can help.



squire online:
RR Discussions: The Valaquenta, A Shortcut to Mushrooms, and Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit
Lights! Action! Discuss on the Movie board!: 'A Journey in the Dark'. and 'Designing The Two Towers'.
Archive: All the TORn Reading Room Book Discussions (including the 1st BotR Discussion!) and Footerama: "Tolkien would have LOVED it!"
Dr. Squire introduces the J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia: A Reader's Diary


= Forum has no new posts. Forum needs no new posts.


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Apr 15, 9:11pm

Post #6 of 10 (1554 views)
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Tolkien's numbers for the Battle of Five Armies [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
do you have any other info on it?


Tolkien does provide some numbers, though few precise figures. Dain's host consisted of "at least five hundred grim dwarves". After the first volley by the Wood-elf archers "a thousand of their spearmen leapt down and charged." The goblins and Wargs were a "vast host". Bats flew above Bolg's army "like a sea of locusts." And the Eagles "had gathered in great numbers, under the great Eagle of the Misty Mountains".

Add to that: One Hobbit, one wizard, the thirteen Dwarves of Thorin's company, and Beorn.

"I may be on the side of the angels, but do not think for one second that I am one of them." - Sherlock

(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Apr 15, 9:12pm)


Tolkien R.J.J
Bree


Apr 15, 9:18pm

Post #7 of 10 (1552 views)
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The Hobbit Party: The Vision of Freedom That Tolkien Got, and the West Forgo [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
As Otaku says in conclusion, "more accurate numbers" can occasionally be found in Lord of the Rings than in The Hobbit. For the first book, as per your question, the one number that is given by Fonstad, for the Dwarves of Dain, is wrong in that the book says "more than five hundred", not five hundred even. The numbers she gives for the other armies are not Tolkien's, who writes about "hosts" or "many", not numbers, in his description of the Battle. So we can actually say they are as many or as few as we want, according to our own understandings of the logistics of the fantasy world.

By the way, TRJJ, do you know the source of one of your Tolkien quotes in your footer: A free society isn't something nice if you can get it, its worth laboring, fighting and dying for. The reason free people of the west fight Mordor to preserve their freedom. It may just be my ignorance, but it just somehow doesn't sound like something he'd say, at least not in those exact words. Thanks if you can help.


Wow, thanks for the correction. This must be an editing mistake on my part. It comes from the authors of The Hobbit Party: The Vision of Freedom That Tolkien Got, and the West Forgot
By Jay Richards, Jonathan Witt that I wrongly applied to Tolkien. This will take some editing to do. Thanks.

I am a Christian, that fact can be deduced from my stories.
-J.R.R Tolkien

A free society isn't something nice if you can get it, its worth laboring, fighting and dying for. The reason free people of the west fight Mordor to preserve their freedom.
J.R.R Tolkien

I am in fact a Hobbit (in all but size). I like gardens, trees and unmechanized farmlands; I smoke a pipe, and like good plain food (unrefrigerated), but detest French cooking; I like, and even dare to wear in these dull days, ornamental waistcoats. I am fond of mushrooms (out of a field); have a very simple sense of humour (which even my appreciative critics find tiresome); I go to bed late and get up late.
J.R.R Tolkien



Tolkien R.J.J
Bree


Apr 15, 9:25pm

Post #8 of 10 (1550 views)
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sorry [In reply to] Can't Post

sorry

I am a Christian, that fact can be deduced from my stories.
-J.R.R Tolkien

A thinker far out of step with the rank and file intellectuals of his time and ours, the intellectual establishment of his day hated god and loved big brother. Tolkien loved god and hated big brother. Unlike many self appointed radicals in lockstep with spirit of the age, he was the true radical- the round peg in the square hole of modernity
-Jonathan Witt and Jay W The Hobbit Party: The vision of freedom that Tolkien got and the west forgot

I am in fact a Hobbit (in all but size). I like gardens, trees and unmechanized farmlands; I smoke a pipe, and like good plain food (unrefrigerated), but detest French cooking; I like, and even dare to wear in these dull days, ornamental waistcoats. I am fond of mushrooms (out of a field); have a very simple sense of humour (which even my appreciative critics find tiresome); I go to bed late and get up late.
J.R.R Tolkien



Wainrider
Bree

Apr 25, 12:25am

Post #9 of 10 (1381 views)
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Armies [In reply to] Can't Post

Doesn't it say in the Lord of the Rings how many soldiers Theoden was able to gather to ride to Gondor? The movies says 600 were added to the host at Dunharrow, not sure if that number is from the boook or not.


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Apr 25, 2:46am

Post #10 of 10 (1369 views)
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More. [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Doesn't it say in the Lord of the Rings how many soldiers Theoden was able to gather to ride to Gondor? The movies says 600 were added to the host at Dunharrow, not sure if that number is from the boook or not.


In all, Rohan was able to muster around 6000 cavalry.


Quote
'Ten thousand spears I might have sent riding over the plain to the dismay of our foes. It will be less now, I fear; for I will not leave my strongholds all unguarded. Yet six thousands at the least shall ride behind me.'


"I may be on the side of the angels, but do not think for one second that I am one of them." - Sherlock

(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Apr 25, 2:47am)

 
 

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