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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
I just realized why Thranduil didn't help the dwarves after Smaug took Erebor
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Noria
Gondor

Apr 14, 9:08pm

Post #26 of 45 (3129 views)
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I don't see it [In reply to] Can't Post

IIRC, the Dwarves were still fleeing out of the gates Erebor when Thranduil appears on the heights above them. Surely their escape must have happened in the minutes and hours after Smaug's arrival.


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Apr 14, 9:25pm

Post #27 of 45 (3123 views)
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Yes, but... [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
IIRC, the Dwarves were still fleeing out of the gates Erebor when Thranduil appears on the heights above them. Surely their escape must have happened in the minutes and hours after Smaug's arrival.


...is this the way it actually went down? Or is this just how Thorin remembered it all those years later? I think there might be reasonable doubt of a literal interpretation.

"I may be on the side of the angels, but do not think for one second that I am one of them." - Sherlock


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Apr 14, 11:06pm

Post #28 of 45 (3112 views)
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Addendum to my last post. [In reply to] Can't Post

If we accept the flashback as an accurate account of the Elves' arrival at Erebor then that calls into question whether Thranduil could have been responding to a call for aid. However, if we view this as being shown through the lens of Thorin's memory then we can be more generous in how we interpret the scene. Events could have become jumbled in Thorin's recollection and Thrór's folk could have actually been met by the Wood-elves much later, despite appearances.

Yes, there are a number of big 'what ifs' involved here, but as I said I'm trying to be generous.

"I may be on the side of the angels, but do not think for one second that I am one of them." - Sherlock


StingingFly
Lorien


Apr 15, 4:54am

Post #29 of 45 (3090 views)
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...not so fast, my friend... [In reply to] Can't Post

Although I like OS's theory of memory distortion, which often happens in events involving trauma, there is another thing to consider.

Just how long did it take for Smaug to conquer Erebor?

Smaug shows up and makes an initial strike against the city.
He then flies over to Dale and attacks there, laying waste to that city.
We later see Smaug breaking in the front gate where Thorin and a company of soldiers are making a last stand.

How much time passed between the attack on Dale and the return to the Lonely Mountain? I would say at least one day! Let us consider Thorin's song...

"The pines were roaring on the height
The winds were moaning in the night"

Smaug took his time entering because he either needed to wear them down, he needed to rest along the way, or he was drawing out their destruction for his own enjoyment.

And if ravens were sent out to enlist aid, the elves could have easily made the journey in 24 hours...especially in PJ's Middle Earth!


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Apr 15, 5:05am

Post #30 of 45 (3087 views)
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Speed-march! [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
And if ravens were sent out to enlist aid, the elves could have easily made the journey in 24 hours...especially in PJ's Middle Earth!


Yes, but only because Peter cheats! Wink

"I may be on the side of the angels, but do not think for one second that I am one of them." - Sherlock


Laineth
Lorien

Apr 15, 7:14pm

Post #31 of 45 (3046 views)
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Laketown Four [In reply to] Can't Post

I agree with your reasoning, but I just don't think it's supported by the film, for reasons I've already gone over.

Again, we're never going to be able to make the books and films match up. So why not enjoy both for what they are?


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Apr 15, 8:07pm

Post #32 of 45 (3037 views)
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Bard's Moon Phase Calendar [In reply to] Can't Post


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At least we never saw a close up of the calendar in Bard's home that showed Durin's Day falling on September 30! Tongue


Since I just got asked about this in a PM, here is a reproduction of Bard's moon phase calendar from The Hobbit: The Desolation of Smaug:



Larger image here.

We never get a good look at it in the movie. It provides Durin's Day with a set date of September 30, which is as much as a month too early and is impossible for the book where the company arrives in Lake-town in September (on Bilbo's birthday as revealed elsewhere) and does not depart until the second week of October.

"I may be on the side of the angels, but do not think for one second that I am one of them." - Sherlock

(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Apr 15, 8:12pm)


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Apr 15, 8:18pm

Post #33 of 45 (3020 views)
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Debatable [In reply to] Can't Post


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I agree with your reasoning, but I just don't think it's supported by the film, for reasons I've already gone over.


It is supportable if we accept Bilbo's statement about Thorin's search at face value. If Thorin has been searching for the Arkenstone for days then it must have taken the other Dwarves days, not hours, to reach Erebor.


In Reply To
Again, we're never going to be able to make the books and films match up. So why not enjoy both for what they are?


Agreed, but even then we have different interpretations of the events of the movies, as illustrated just now. Wink

"I may be on the side of the angels, but do not think for one second that I am one of them." - Sherlock

(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Apr 15, 8:20pm)


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Apr 15, 8:33pm

Post #34 of 45 (3010 views)
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Durin's Day on Bard's Calendar [In reply to] Can't Post

One more oddity about Bard's moon phase calendar and The Desolation of Smaug is that when Bilbo solves the riddle of Durin's Day we see a crescent moon consistent with the date of October 5 (or 5 Winterfilth) on the calendar, not September 30. So there are several good reasons why we never see a close up of the calendar in the movie.

Arguably even worse is the moon being shown as full (and in the north) when Smaug attacks Lake-town hours later at the beginning of The Battle of the Five Armies.

"I may be on the side of the angels, but do not think for one second that I am one of them." - Sherlock

(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Apr 15, 8:39pm)


Laineth
Lorien

Apr 16, 1:37am

Post #35 of 45 (2971 views)
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Timeline [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To

In Reply To
I agree with your reasoning, but I just don't think it's supported by the film, for reasons I've already gone over.


It is supportable if we accept Bilbo's statement about Thorin's search at face value. If Thorin has been searching for the Arkenstone for days then it must have taken the other Dwarves days, not hours, to reach Erebor.


In Reply To
Again, we're never going to be able to make the books and films match up. So why not enjoy both for what they are?


Agreed, but even then we have different interpretations of the events of the movies, as illustrated just now. Wink


As much as I want to take Bilbo's line at face value, there are still some things in the way.

What about the scene placement, and the elves? The humans are still on the shore when the Laketown Four arrive at Erebor. Thranduil is moving slower than Legolas and Tauriel, but he still can't take too long.

Let's say day 1 is right after Smaug's death. The Laketown Four leave for Erebor and Legolas and Tauriel leave for Gundabad. The humans start preparing to move.

Day 2. The Laketown Four arrive at Erebor in the morning. The humans leave the shore in the morning and arrive at Dale in the evening.

Day 3. Thranduil arrives in the early morning.


Laineth
Lorien

Apr 16, 1:46am

Post #36 of 45 (2966 views)
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Moon [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
One more oddity about Bard's moon phase calendar and The Desolation of Smaug is that when Bilbo solves the riddle of Durin's Day we see a crescent moon consistent with the date of October 5 (or 5 Winterfilth) on the calendar, not September 30. So there are several good reasons why we never see a close up of the calendar in the movie.

Arguably even worse is the moon being shown as full (and in the north) when Smaug attacks Lake-town hours later at the beginning of The Battle of the Five Armies.


Actually, it's not a crescent moon. It's just partially covered by clouds:

http://screencapped.org/...62#top_display_media


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Apr 16, 2:15am

Post #37 of 45 (2961 views)
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Longer Timeline? [In reply to] Can't Post


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What about the scene placement, and the elves? The humans are still on the shore when the Laketown Four arrive at Erebor. Thranduil is moving slower than Legolas and Tauriel, but he still can't take too long.

Let's say day 1 is right after Smaug's death. The Laketown Four leave for Erebor and Legolas and Tauriel leave for Gundabad. The humans start preparing to move.

Day 2. The Laketown Four arrive at Erebor in the morning. The humans leave the shore in the morning and arrive at Dale in the evening.

Day 3. Thranduil arrives in the early morning.


I can't review the events of TH:BotFA for a while because I don't have immediate access to the Blu-ray player (my spouse is watching something). I would suggest a longer timeline, starting with the morning after Smaug's attack.

Day 1: The Four Dwarves leave for Erebor; Legolas and Tauriel depart for Gundabad; the Lake-folk treat injured and recover whatever they can. Thranduil learns of the death of Smaug

Day 2. The Lake-men gather food and supplies and prepare the weak and injured to be moved. Thranduil sets out with his army and supply wagons. The Four reach Erebor.

Day 3. The survivors of Lake-town depart for the Lonely Mountain.

Day 4. The Men of the Lake reach Dale.

Day 5. The Wood-elves reach Dale in the morning.

Honesty, I would prefer to double or even triple the travel times, but I'm trying to work with what Jackson has provided--ridiculous as it is.

"I may be on the side of the angels, but do not think for one second that I am one of them." - Sherlock


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Apr 16, 2:35am

Post #38 of 45 (2960 views)
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Crescent Moon [In reply to] Can't Post

There are other shots that show the moon of Durin's Day more clearly. Yes, it is a crescent, waxing moon; I just re-watched the scene this afternoon. A full moon would be even worse as it would be off by half of a month.


Quote
Soon [Bilbo] saw the orange ball of the sun sinking towards the level of his eyes. He went to the opening and there pale and faint was a thin new moon above the rim of Earth.


Granted, a new moon would not have furnished enough light to fit Peter Jackson's interpretation of the riddle of the map.

"I may be on the side of the angels, but do not think for one second that I am one of them." - Sherlock

(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Apr 16, 2:37am)


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Apr 16, 6:01am

Post #39 of 45 (2941 views)
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TH:BotFA Revisions. [In reply to] Can't Post

My mistake. Legolas and Tauriel set out for Gundabad on the same day that the Lake-town survivors depart for the Lonely Mountain.

Day 1: Durin's Day. The Company of Thorin reaches Erebor. Bilbo enters the Mountain. Smaug attacks Lake-town and is slain by Bard.

Day 2: Esgaroth is in ruins. Fíli, Kíli, Óin and Bofur leave for Erebor. The Lake-folk treat their injured and salvage whatever they can. Thranduil learns of the death of Smaug.

Day 3: Thranduil sets out with his army and supply wagons. The Four reach Erebor. The survivors of Lake-town depart for the Lonely Mountain. Legolas and Tauriel leave for Gundabad. The White Council rescues Gandalf and drives Sauron out of Dol Guldur.

Day 4: Gandalf departs Dol Guldur for Erebor. The Men of the Lake reach Dale. The Dwarves shore up Erebor's defenses.

Day 5: The Wood-elves reach Dale in the morning. Thorin sends a raven to Dáin. Bard parleys with Thorin. Legolas and Tauriel reach Gundabad. Gandalf arrives at Dale. Bilbo sneaks out of Erebor and gives the Arkenstone to Bard and Thranduil.

Day 6: Dáin and his army reaches Erebor. The Battle of Five Armies. Fíli and Kíli are slain. Thorin is mortally wounded and dies.

Yes, the timing is still completely absurd. There is no way that the main events of the third movie should be able to play out in less than a week; even two weeks is a stretch if we give every character every reasonable advantage. One thing we can do is assume that Dáin learned of Smaug's death and mustered his army even before the Wood-elves reached Dale. Thorin's message just made him hurry. There's not much we can do about Tauriel and Legolas; they reach Gundabad and then Dale impossibly fast and that's all there is to it. The same applies to the army of Gundabad Orcs. There is no way that they should have been able to reach Erebor in less than a week, much less in a single day.

Then again, I don't know if all of this bothers many others as much as it does me. It's just the way I'm wired. Crazy

"I may be on the side of the angels, but do not think for one second that I am one of them." - Sherlock

(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Apr 16, 6:13am)


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Apr 16, 2:34pm

Post #40 of 45 (2895 views)
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Returning to the 'AUJ' prologue and a better understanding of the 'BotFA' timeline [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Thranduil in the book!Hobbit is certainly different, but the Thranduil from UT and LotR is very similar to the film. Also, like Thorin, he is a good but not 'nice' character, in the vein of all anti heroes.

But we're talking about the films timing. The prologue implies months between Thranduil's visit and Smaug's attack, and in BotFA Thranduil gets wagons with supplies and his army moving in less than 24 hours.



Yes, probably, but the Wood-elves do not reach the ruins of Dale until the third or fourth day after Durin's Day (depending on your interpretation). Bilbo is the one relating the events of the prologue, though, and although he must have gotten the story from Thorin and other Dwarves who were there, Bilbo can be considered to be an unreliable narrator. I would argue that Thror's actions show that a shadow was falling over Erebor even before his confrontation with Thranduil. The dispute itself lends evidence to that.


In Reply To
Also, the distance is much shorter in the films. It only takes Tauriel and Legolas a few hours on foot to reach Laketown. And even in the books the distances are inconsistent...


I think the problem lies less with distance than with Peter Jackson's inconsistent treatment of that distance. Yes, questions of scale come into play when comparing the book The Hobbit to The Lord of the Rings, but as stated previously, that seems mainly to affect travel across Eriador and doesn't come as much into play once the company is east of the Misty Mountains.

And, in fact, Legolas and Tauriel in The Desolation of Smaug do not reach Lake-town until Durin's Day, apparently the day after the Dwarves reach Esgaroth--despite what is said when they first arrive at Bard's house (which indicates that Durin's Day is two days away). Also, I do not assume that they are traveling on foot as they definitely have horses when they journey to Gundabad. We just don't see the mounts until after the attack by Bolg and his Orcs. In fact we see Legolas on his horse when he leaves to pursue Bolg.

"I may be on the side of the angels, but do not think for one second that I am one of them." - Sherlock


Hamfast Gamgee
Grey Havens

Apr 17, 10:35pm

Post #41 of 45 (2876 views)
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I'm not sure about the pay homage idea [In reply to] Can't Post

I can't quite remember now how the introduction worked, but maybe the narrator was wrong or we interpreted the idea wrong. I think it more likely that Thranduril was paying payment rather than homage or tribute. Possibly due to some work that the Dwarves carried out with the Elves. After all this idea worked with the Silmarillion.


Laineth
Lorien

Apr 18, 3:20am

Post #42 of 45 (2872 views)
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Timeline [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
My mistake. Legolas and Tauriel set out for Gundabad on the same day that the Lake-town survivors depart for the Lonely Mountain.

Day 1: Durin's Day. The Company of Thorin reaches Erebor. Bilbo enters the Mountain. Smaug attacks Lake-town and is slain by Bard.

Day 2: Esgaroth is in ruins. Fíli, Kíli, Óin and Bofur leave for Erebor. The Lake-folk treat their injured and salvage whatever they can. Thranduil learns of the death of Smaug.

Day 3: Thranduil sets out with his army and supply wagons. The Four reach Erebor. The survivors of Lake-town depart for the Lonely Mountain. Legolas and Tauriel leave for Gundabad. The White Council rescues Gandalf and drives Sauron out of Dol Guldur.

Day 4: Gandalf departs Dol Guldur for Erebor. The Men of the Lake reach Dale. The Dwarves shore up Erebor's defenses.

Day 5: The Wood-elves reach Dale in the morning. Thorin sends a raven to Dáin. Bard parleys with Thorin. Legolas and Tauriel reach Gundabad. Gandalf arrives at Dale. Bilbo sneaks out of Erebor and gives the Arkenstone to Bard and Thranduil.

Day 6: Dáin and his army reaches Erebor. The Battle of Five Armies. Fíli and Kíli are slain. Thorin is mortally wounded and dies.

Yes, the timing is still completely absurd. There is no way that the main events of the third movie should be able to play out in less than a week; even two weeks is a stretch if we give every character every reasonable advantage. One thing we can do is assume that Dáin learned of Smaug's death and mustered his army even before the Wood-elves reached Dale. Thorin's message just made him hurry. There's not much we can do about Tauriel and Legolas; they reach Gundabad and then Dale impossibly fast and that's all there is to it. The same applies to the army of Gundabad Orcs. There is no way that they should have been able to reach Erebor in less than a week, much less in a single day.

Then again, I don't know if all of this bothers many others as much as it does me. It's just the way I'm wired. Crazy


It doesn't bother me, but we're all wired differently! I agree with this timeline, except for Legolas and Tauriel. They have to leave shortly after the Four, and their shoreline scenes edit does bother me.

In the film we have:
Scene 1: Tauriel looking for Bard with Sigrid and Tilda, switches to Tauriel with Four, Legolas arrives and says he needs Tauriel.

Scene 2: Sigrid and Tilda find Bard.

Scene 3: Bard and a conflicted Legolas talk, there is no Tauriel.

Scene 4: Tauriel and Legolas are together, he fills her in on what happened to him and what he saw.

This scene order makes absolutely no sense.

Tauriel has been focused on Sigrid and Tilda since Smaug was spotted. She's not going to leave them until they've found Bard. Legolas is not only alone, but hesitant and conflicted when talking to Bard. He then comes to the decision that they need more info, and goes to find Tauriel so they can do so together. The Four leave, Legolas fills Tauriel in and they leave for Gundabad. This is how it should go, not that nonsensical order.


Laineth
Lorien

Apr 18, 3:27am

Post #43 of 45 (2871 views)
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Narration [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To

In Reply To
Thranduil in the book!Hobbit is certainly different, but the Thranduil from UT and LotR is very similar to the film. Also, like Thorin, he is a good but not 'nice' character, in the vein of all anti heroes.

But we're talking about the films timing. The prologue implies months between Thranduil's visit and Smaug's attack, and in BotFA Thranduil gets wagons with supplies and his army moving in less than 24 hours.



Yes, probably, but the Wood-elves do not reach the ruins of Dale until the third or fourth day after Durin's Day (depending on your interpretation). Bilbo is the one relating the events of the prologue, though, and although he must have gotten the story from Thorin and other Dwarves who were there, Bilbo can be considered to be an unreliable narrator. I would argue that Thror's actions show that a shadow was falling over Erebor even before his confrontation with Thranduil. The dispute itself lends evidence to that.


In Reply To
Also, the distance is much shorter in the films. It only takes Tauriel and Legolas a few hours on foot to reach Laketown. And even in the books the distances are inconsistent...


I think the problem lies less with distance than with Peter Jackson's inconsistent treatment of that distance. Yes, questions of scale come into play when comparing the book The Hobbit to The Lord of the Rings, but as stated previously, that seems mainly to affect travel across Eriador and doesn't come as much into play once the company is east of the Misty Mountains.

And, in fact, Legolas and Tauriel in The Desolation of Smaug do not reach Lake-town until Durin's Day, apparently the day after the Dwarves reach Esgaroth--despite what is said when they first arrive at Bard's house (which indicates that Durin's Day is two days away). Also, I do not assume that they are traveling on foot as they definitely have horses when they journey to Gundabad. We just don't see the mounts until after the attack by Bolg and his Orcs. In fact we see Legolas on his horse when he leaves to pursue Bolg.


Oh, Thror was defintely already falling. I've always taken it to mean that he was just still in the early stages then, and afterwards things got a lot worse. It makes sense he would antagonize the elves before getting bad enough to do wrong by his people and family.

Considering we don't know how long Smaug was attacking Dale and Erebor, and that Thranduil arrives after Smaug has entered Erebor, I think it could be a day or two.

I agree with you about Legolas and Tauriel - I had somehow mind spaced on Legolas riding after Bolg! It just goes to show I should be in bed and not online. Wink


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Apr 18, 3:43am

Post #44 of 45 (2868 views)
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Legolas and Tauriel depart for Gundabad. [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
It doesn't bother me, but we're all wired differently! I agree with this timeline, except for Legolas and Tauriel. They have to leave shortly after the Four, and their shoreline scenes edit does bother me.


The way the movie is edited, it seems clear that Tauriel and Legolas are still at the shore of Long Lake when the four Dwarves reach Erebor. Tauriel evidently remains to aid the survivors right up to the time when Thranduil's messenger shows up and Legolas learns of her banishment.

"I may be on the side of the angels, but do not think for one second that I am one of them." - Sherlock


Laineth
Lorien

Apr 18, 4:25pm

Post #45 of 45 (2852 views)
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Legolas and Tauriel [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To

In Reply To
It doesn't bother me, but we're all wired differently! I agree with this timeline, except for Legolas and Tauriel. They have to leave shortly after the Four, and their shoreline scenes edit does bother me.


The way the movie is edited, it seems clear that Tauriel and Legolas are still at the shore of Long Lake when the four Dwarves reach Erebor. Tauriel evidently remains to aid the survivors right up to the time when Thranduil's messenger shows up and Legolas learns of her banishment.


Yes, I'm just disagreeing with that edit.

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