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AshNazg
Gondor
Apr 2 2018, 8:55pm
Post #1 of 43
(11092 views)
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Video Essay - A Long Expected Autopsy
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I recently found this video essay by Linday Ellis. It's one of the first results on Youtube when you search The Hobbit...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uTRUQ-RKfUs
I just thought it might spark a little discussion or some thoughts in the forums. It's a pretty interesting watch.
I also wonder how often people revisit these movies. When was the last time you watched The Hobbit or The Lord of the Rings? And have your opinions changed now that it's been a few years?
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Petty Dwarf
Bree
Apr 2 2018, 9:19pm
Post #2 of 43
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I didn't have time to watch the video...
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...but I have been revisiting The Hobbit films lately, and I find that I don't dislike Tauriel as much as I did the first time around. What I dislike is the love triangle.
"No words were laid on stream or stone
When Durin woke and walked alone."
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AshNazg
Gondor
Apr 2 2018, 9:51pm
Post #3 of 43
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I agree, Tauriel was actually a great addition...
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I personally like the relationship she has with Legolas, simply because it explores that divide between the two types of elf, it tells the audience that Legolas is part of a proud bloodline and there are separate types of elves besides the ones seen in Lord of the Rings.
This is why I like the Laketown characters too. The books only really mention the important characters, the royalty and heroes. The film did a great job with looking at some of the more everyday folk, which I think suits The Hobbit's main theme.
The Kili love story though.. I think they should have removed that awful healing scene in favour of a light-hearted moment, that actually shows why Kili and Tauriel like each-other. Them fighting back-to-back, sharing a joke, something that causes them to make the other smile, so we see warmth in their relationship and reason to accept it. All we see between them is sadness - it makes it had to accept the attraction.
(This post was edited by AshNazg on Apr 2 2018, 10:06pm)
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painjoiker
Grey Havens
Apr 4 2018, 1:26pm
Post #4 of 43
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Tauriel herself isn't the problem.
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The way she was used after the Company left Mirkwood is what bothers me.
Vocalist of the progressive doom rock band Mater Thallium.
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Silmaril
Rohan
Apr 4 2018, 2:43pm
Post #6 of 43
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I agree. I liked her in the beginning and Evangeline Lilly is a great actress (I love Lost). I read that she did not enjoy the love triangle story too...
(This post was edited by Silmaril on Apr 4 2018, 2:45pm)
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AshNazg
Gondor
Apr 4 2018, 3:52pm
Post #7 of 43
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John Callen definitely showed restraint in that interview...
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Something was not being said.
It's interesting that back when these issues were happening there was so much defence on the boards and from the makers that "this is not studio interference", "this is all Peter's vision" etc. Seems, at least from Callen's perspective, that this was not the case 
Maybe there's a chance of a director's cut one day 
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Apr 4 2018, 4:09pm
Post #8 of 43
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I know that there are still strong proponents of the three-film structure, but more than ever i would have liked to see what del Toro's two-part adaptation would have looked like. I'm sure that he would also have done some things that I would not have cared for (a thorny-looking Thorin? Rolling Orcs?), yet I think they might have been stronger films over all.
It really does seem that Guillermo del Toro's exit was not entirely of his own volition.
"I may be on the side of the angels, but do not think for one second that I am one of them." - Sherlock
(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Apr 4 2018, 4:11pm)
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AshNazg
Gondor
Apr 4 2018, 4:11pm
Post #9 of 43
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They could have used her and Legolas better in Laketown...
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After the dwarves are captured for stealing weapons, they are brought to the Master. I think Legolas and Tauriel should have been in this scene saying "these are our prisoners" and the Master saying "they're in my town, I decide the prisoners here". This basically happens in the book, but the two elves are not named.
Legolas could threaten to stop barrel trade if the prisoners aren't handed over and Tauriel would defend them, saying they've done nothing wrong. Eventually it's decided some of the dwarves are held behind, as hostage, while the rest go to the mountain.
But to be honest, they could have done a lot of things if production wasn't so rushed
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AshNazg
Gondor
Apr 4 2018, 4:26pm
Post #10 of 43
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Part 2 is now #4 trending on Youtube! //
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Kilidoescartwheels
Valinor
Apr 4 2018, 8:02pm
Post #11 of 43
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Sorry, I couldn't make it to that part
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36 minutes of a Hobbit movie-hater whining about how much she hated the Hobbit movies, UGH!!!
I'm not scared to be seen, I make no apologies - this is me!
from The Greatest Showman
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jlj93byu
Rivendell
Apr 4 2018, 8:03pm
Post #12 of 43
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Just finished watching them both and while they were pretty harsh on the films, I can't say it wasn't justified. These were very well done, and as others have said, that interview with John Callen alone is worth watching.
While I enjoyed the movies more than Lindsay did, I do absolutely agree on her reasoning for why they were flawed. As I was watching, I kept thinking to myself over and over "if only they had more time, if only they had more time, if only they had more time." John Callen certainly speaks about this problem as well. Ultimately, if the studio had stepped back, given Jackson all the time he needed, and just let him work his magic, I think we'd have some pretty darn good films.
(This post was edited by jlj93byu on Apr 4 2018, 8:03pm)
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Kilidoescartwheels
Valinor
Apr 4 2018, 8:04pm
Post #13 of 43
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When was the last time I watched them?
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Two days ago, LOL! "Fellowship" is now streaming on Netflix, the theatrical version of course, but it's great for those days when I want to work on something while a movie plays in the background.
I'm not scared to be seen, I make no apologies - this is me!
from The Greatest Showman
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jlj93byu
Rivendell
Apr 4 2018, 8:08pm
Post #14 of 43
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Haha, yeah, definitely not a fan of the films...
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36 minutes of a Hobbit movie-hater whining about how much she hated the Hobbit movies, UGH!!!
Yeah, she is definitely not a fan of the films. I have always been an optimist, so I focus on the good in the films instead of the bad. But I figure I'm sitting at a desk at work all day doing very little, and I have the time, so why not! Now it's time for some videos from Men of the West.
Like her, however, I also feel bad for Peter Jackson. I can only imagine the stress of being the focal point for the studio in their expressing their demands and expecting him to then be the one to champion that change to everyone else, as if he agreed with it.
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skyofcoffeebeans
Rohan
Apr 5 2018, 12:11am
Post #15 of 43
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I don't think that's a fair assessment
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They're very well-crafted analyses, and she's quick to point out elements of the film she enjoys.
But more importantly, they're illuminating: I don't think I appreciated the behind-the-scenes studio-infighting that almost certainly dictated the direction of these films. Who knows if we'll ever know what actually went down behind closed doors, but I've been convinced since Desolation of Smaug that the love triangle wasn't something that Phillipa and Fran dreamed up on their own, even if they did believe in the Kili / Tauriel love story.
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AshNazg
Gondor
Apr 5 2018, 1:48am
Post #16 of 43
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The last time I saw them was in VR!
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Last year I got one of those Playstation VR headsets, and I popped The Hobbit in to test what watching a 3D movie looked like, and ended up watching all three films, haha!
I have to say, in many ways it's better than the cinema experience. You get a fully bright, colourful image (no glasses to dim the picture) and can adjust the 3D depth and screen size to your preference. It's like sitting in your own tailored IMAX, the screen looks huge.
I don't have Five Armies in 3D, so I watched that on my TV and was so underwhelmed by comparison  these films need to be seen BIG. I just wish the 48fps version was available 
(This post was edited by AshNazg on Apr 5 2018, 1:52am)
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Kilidoescartwheels
Valinor
Apr 5 2018, 3:25am
Post #17 of 43
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Once I figured out John's interview was on Part II I quit watching Part I (though not soon enough) and skipped to John's interview. I caught a little bit of the "Battle of 5 Studios," which I admit was interesting, but couldn't force myself to listen to another 30-minute whine re-hashing the same old "too much CGI/Legolas/ad nauseum that I've read for the past 4 years here. It loses it's appeal after 10 minutes or so.
I'm not scared to be seen, I make no apologies - this is me!
from The Greatest Showman
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Silmaril
Rohan
Apr 5 2018, 7:48am
Post #18 of 43
(10568 views)
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Video 2 13:20 min
So the studio had a lot of impact on the movies like many people suspected. I think that this was really hard for PJ, and he had to defend that decisions/changes...
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Silmaril
Rohan
Apr 5 2018, 9:10am
Post #19 of 43
(10559 views)
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"We were actually becoming the world's highest paid extras..."
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Video 2 30:50 min
I always wondered what the cast really thought when they watched the final movies.
(This post was edited by Silmaril on Apr 5 2018, 9:11am)
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Legomir
Rivendell
Apr 7 2018, 3:46pm
Post #20 of 43
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I would kill to just see that interview, completely unedited and with no other asides or interludes from the video-creator. I'm not saying that she's done anything unethical or anything like that, I'd just be more interested in seeing the whole thing. What he said was illuminating and still respectful (don't get much of that these days).
I have to admit that I wasn't overly interested in watching the whole videos, just because I absolutely adore all three films and think sometimes people are just looking for reasons to smugly pick them apart. For all I know, that wasn't the case here, I know I'm being stubborn, but I just wasn't interested in it. Feel free to criticize.
I know it'll never happen, but I'd love to see more retrospective interviews like this, to hear from more points of view. How did Aiden Turner feel about his part being beefed up, what was he told? What's his side of this story? What about Hugo Weaving? Nobody can deny that he's not a frank individual who would likely be honest. Orlando Bloom? I'm not invalidating John Callen's interview because I have no doubt that that's how it was for him and others, but there is no doubt that some Dwarves were going to have more story potential than others, and I would just love to see more from other players. In his YouTube videos, Stephen Hunter seems to be on good relations with people like Dean O'Gorman and Graham McTavish. I don't know, I'm rambling right now.
The interview that we got, however, was very good. I have no doubt that there was a lot of studio interference and that changed quite a bit of the script. Jackson was clearly drained from the experience as it went on. The post-production of BOTFA is depressing, in some ways, because it seems like the time that all their problems finally caught up with them. Special features for ROTK and DOS show that almost happening, but here is the time that the editing and visual effects were impacted by various different issues. It's sad. I love the movies, but one can only wonder what it would have been like if they'd had more pre-production time like LOTR and less influence.
To make things sadder (to me), I still think Jackson, Boyens, and Walsh loved Tolkien, alongside most of the other people in the cast and crew. I'm happy the movies were as good as they were, but who knows what could have happened with less interference.
Sorry for the rambling.
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skyofcoffeebeans
Rohan
Apr 7 2018, 9:43pm
Post #21 of 43
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Except I did find the videographer’s POV interesting.
But your point about unfiltered interviews... I want it from everyone. Guillermo, Boyens, and ESPECIALLY Fran Walsh.
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Eruonen
Half-elven
Apr 10 2018, 7:12pm
Post #22 of 43
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I like her efforts.....of course we can disagree with some things...but I think she captures
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many of the issues that affected the films.
I would not want to go all the way to NZ - cost, time etc. and look like a sourpuss. Her friend at least felt the joy.
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DGHCaretaker
Rohan
Apr 21 2018, 10:02pm
Post #24 of 43
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I like Jenny Nicholson's personality more, but Lindsay Ellis did an awesome job in writing and producing these particular videos, making it even more interesting by blending a story structure mirroring that of the fiction with the reality of how the movie production transpired - going on an adventure (to NZ), quoting Sam with familiar things like "of course you are, and I'm going too" and "Well, I'm back" along with titles like "The battles of five studios." Really nicely done.
I LOLed at the end of video #2 where she has the studio making her do a third part of a two-part series. A bit of nice entertainment with a sense of humor framed around a serious topic.
And the videos addressed things without the rose-colored glasses. That's refreshing. I can enjoy a film more when it's approached honestly than when its problems are denied. Admitting its problems is the first step to recovery. ;)
(This post was edited by DGHCaretaker on Apr 21 2018, 10:03pm)
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Silmaril
Rohan
Apr 22 2018, 9:40am
Post #25 of 43
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But well done! Poor Hobbit...
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