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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
Video Essay - A Long Expected Autopsy
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AshNazg
Gondor


Apr 2, 8:55pm

Post #1 of 43 (6520 views)
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Video Essay - A Long Expected Autopsy Can't Post

I recently found this video essay by Linday Ellis. It's one of the first results on Youtube when you search The Hobbit...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uTRUQ-RKfUs

I just thought it might spark a little discussion or some thoughts in the forums. It's a pretty interesting watch.

I also wonder how often people revisit these movies. When was the last time you watched The Hobbit or The Lord of the Rings? And have your opinions changed now that it's been a few years?


Petty Dwarf
Bree


Apr 2, 9:19pm

Post #2 of 43 (6425 views)
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I didn't have time to watch the video... [In reply to] Can't Post

...but I have been revisiting The Hobbit films lately, and I find that I don't dislike Tauriel as much as I did the first time around. What I dislike is the love triangle.

"No words were laid on stream or stone
When Durin woke and walked alone."


AshNazg
Gondor


Apr 2, 9:51pm

Post #3 of 43 (6428 views)
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I agree, Tauriel was actually a great addition... [In reply to] Can't Post

I personally like the relationship she has with Legolas, simply because it explores that divide between the two types of elf, it tells the audience that Legolas is part of a proud bloodline and there are separate types of elves besides the ones seen in Lord of the Rings.

This is why I like the Laketown characters too. The books only really mention the important characters, the royalty and heroes. The film did a great job with looking at some of the more everyday folk, which I think suits The Hobbit's main theme.

The Kili love story though.. I think they should have removed that awful healing scene in favour of a light-hearted moment, that actually shows why Kili and Tauriel like each-other. Them fighting back-to-back, sharing a joke, something that causes them to make the other smile, so we see warmth in their relationship and reason to accept it. All we see between them is sadness - it makes it had to accept the attraction.


(This post was edited by AshNazg on Apr 2, 10:06pm)


painjoiker
Grey Havens


Apr 4, 1:26pm

Post #4 of 43 (6222 views)
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Tauriel herself isn't the problem. [In reply to] Can't Post

The way she was used after the Company left Mirkwood is what bothers me.

Vocalist of the progressive doom rock band Mater Thallium.


skyofcoffeebeans
Rivendell

Apr 4, 2:19pm

Post #5 of 43 (6221 views)
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John Callen [In reply to] Can't Post

That interview with Oin is everything.


Silmaril
Rohan


Apr 4, 2:43pm

Post #6 of 43 (6204 views)
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Tauriel [In reply to] Can't Post

I agree. I liked her in the beginning and Evangeline Lilly is a great actress (I love Lost). I read that she did not enjoy the love triangle story too...


(This post was edited by Silmaril on Apr 4, 2:45pm)


AshNazg
Gondor


Apr 4, 3:52pm

Post #7 of 43 (6204 views)
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John Callen definitely showed restraint in that interview... [In reply to] Can't Post

Something was not being said.

It's interesting that back when these issues were happening there was so much defence on the boards and from the makers that "this is not studio interference", "this is all Peter's vision" etc. Seems, at least from Callen's perspective, that this was not the case Mad

Maybe there's a chance of a director's cut one day Unsure


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Apr 4, 4:09pm

Post #8 of 43 (6194 views)
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Two Films vs. Three [In reply to] Can't Post

I know that there are still strong proponents of the three-film structure, but more than ever i would have liked to see what del Toro's two-part adaptation would have looked like. I'm sure that he would also have done some things that I would not have cared for (a thorny-looking Thorin? Rolling Orcs?), yet I think they might have been stronger films over all.

It really does seem that Guillermo del Toro's exit was not entirely of his own volition.

"I may be on the side of the angels, but do not think for one second that I am one of them." - Sherlock

(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Apr 4, 4:11pm)


AshNazg
Gondor


Apr 4, 4:11pm

Post #9 of 43 (6183 views)
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They could have used her and Legolas better in Laketown... [In reply to] Can't Post

After the dwarves are captured for stealing weapons, they are brought to the Master. I think Legolas and Tauriel should have been in this scene saying "these are our prisoners" and the Master saying "they're in my town, I decide the prisoners here". This basically happens in the book, but the two elves are not named.

Legolas could threaten to stop barrel trade if the prisoners aren't handed over and Tauriel would defend them, saying they've done nothing wrong. Eventually it's decided some of the dwarves are held behind, as hostage, while the rest go to the mountain.

But to be honest, they could have done a lot of things if production wasn't so rushed Unsure


AshNazg
Gondor


Apr 4, 4:26pm

Post #10 of 43 (6163 views)
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Part 2 is now #4 trending on Youtube! // [In reply to] Can't Post

 


Kilidoescartwheels
Valinor


Apr 4, 8:02pm

Post #11 of 43 (6120 views)
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Sorry, I couldn't make it to that part [In reply to] Can't Post

36 minutes of a Hobbit movie-hater whining about how much she hated the Hobbit movies, UGH!!!

I'm not scared to be seen, I make no apologies - this is me!

from The Greatest Showman




jlj93byu
Rivendell

Apr 4, 8:03pm

Post #12 of 43 (6115 views)
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Excellent Videos [In reply to] Can't Post

Just finished watching them both and while they were pretty harsh on the films, I can't say it wasn't justified. These were very well done, and as others have said, that interview with John Callen alone is worth watching.

While I enjoyed the movies more than Lindsay did, I do absolutely agree on her reasoning for why they were flawed. As I was watching, I kept thinking to myself over and over "if only they had more time, if only they had more time, if only they had more time." John Callen certainly speaks about this problem as well. Ultimately, if the studio had stepped back, given Jackson all the time he needed, and just let him work his magic, I think we'd have some pretty darn good films.


(This post was edited by jlj93byu on Apr 4, 8:03pm)


Kilidoescartwheels
Valinor


Apr 4, 8:04pm

Post #13 of 43 (6109 views)
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When was the last time I watched them? [In reply to] Can't Post

Two days ago, LOL! "Fellowship" is now streaming on Netflix, the theatrical version of course, but it's great for those days when I want to work on something while a movie plays in the background.

I'm not scared to be seen, I make no apologies - this is me!

from The Greatest Showman




jlj93byu
Rivendell

Apr 4, 8:08pm

Post #14 of 43 (6109 views)
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Haha, yeah, definitely not a fan of the films... [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
36 minutes of a Hobbit movie-hater whining about how much she hated the Hobbit movies, UGH!!!


Yeah, she is definitely not a fan of the films. I have always been an optimist, so I focus on the good in the films instead of the bad. But I figure I'm sitting at a desk at work all day doing very little, and I have the time, so why not! Now it's time for some videos from Men of the West.

Like her, however, I also feel bad for Peter Jackson. I can only imagine the stress of being the focal point for the studio in their expressing their demands and expecting him to then be the one to champion that change to everyone else, as if he agreed with it.


skyofcoffeebeans
Rivendell

Apr 5, 12:11am

Post #15 of 43 (6058 views)
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I don't think that's a fair assessment [In reply to] Can't Post

They're very well-crafted analyses, and she's quick to point out elements of the film she enjoys.

But more importantly, they're illuminating: I don't think I appreciated the behind-the-scenes studio-infighting that almost certainly dictated the direction of these films. Who knows if we'll ever know what actually went down behind closed doors, but I've been convinced since Desolation of Smaug that the love triangle wasn't something that Phillipa and Fran dreamed up on their own, even if they did believe in the Kili / Tauriel love story.


AshNazg
Gondor


Apr 5, 1:48am

Post #16 of 43 (6043 views)
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The last time I saw them was in VR! [In reply to] Can't Post

Last year I got one of those Playstation VR headsets, and I popped The Hobbit in to test what watching a 3D movie looked like, and ended up watching all three films, haha!

I have to say, in many ways it's better than the cinema experience. You get a fully bright, colourful image (no glasses to dim the picture) and can adjust the 3D depth and screen size to your preference. It's like sitting in your own tailored IMAX, the screen looks huge.

I don't have Five Armies in 3D, so I watched that on my TV and was so underwhelmed by comparison Laugh these films need to be seen BIG. I just wish the 48fps version was available Frown


(This post was edited by AshNazg on Apr 5, 1:52am)


Kilidoescartwheels
Valinor


Apr 5, 3:25am

Post #17 of 43 (6033 views)
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I wouldn't know [In reply to] Can't Post

Once I figured out John's interview was on Part II I quit watching Part I (though not soon enough) and skipped to John's interview. I caught a little bit of the "Battle of 5 Studios," which I admit was interesting, but couldn't force myself to listen to another 30-minute whine re-hashing the same old "too much CGI/Legolas/ad nauseum that I've read for the past 4 years here. It loses it's appeal after 10 minutes or so.

I'm not scared to be seen, I make no apologies - this is me!

from The Greatest Showman




Silmaril
Rohan


Apr 5, 7:48am

Post #18 of 43 (5997 views)
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"PJ wasn't the final arbiter" [In reply to] Can't Post

Video 2 13:20 min
So the studio had a lot of impact on the movies like many people suspected. I think that this was really hard for PJ, and he had to defend that decisions/changes...


Silmaril
Rohan


Apr 5, 9:10am

Post #19 of 43 (5988 views)
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"We were actually becoming the world's highest paid extras..." [In reply to] Can't Post

Video 2 30:50 min
I always wondered what the cast really thought when they watched the final movies.


(This post was edited by Silmaril on Apr 5, 9:11am)


Legomir
Rivendell

Apr 7, 3:46pm

Post #20 of 43 (5756 views)
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John Callen's Interview [In reply to] Can't Post

I would kill to just see that interview, completely unedited and with no other asides or interludes from the video-creator. I'm not saying that she's done anything unethical or anything like that, I'd just be more interested in seeing the whole thing. What he said was illuminating and still respectful (don't get much of that these days).

I have to admit that I wasn't overly interested in watching the whole videos, just because I absolutely adore all three films and think sometimes people are just looking for reasons to smugly pick them apart. For all I know, that wasn't the case here, I know I'm being stubborn, but I just wasn't interested in it. Feel free to criticize.

I know it'll never happen, but I'd love to see more retrospective interviews like this, to hear from more points of view. How did Aiden Turner feel about his part being beefed up, what was he told? What's his side of this story? What about Hugo Weaving? Nobody can deny that he's not a frank individual who would likely be honest. Orlando Bloom? I'm not invalidating John Callen's interview because I have no doubt that that's how it was for him and others, but there is no doubt that some Dwarves were going to have more story potential than others, and I would just love to see more from other players. In his YouTube videos, Stephen Hunter seems to be on good relations with people like Dean O'Gorman and Graham McTavish. I don't know, I'm rambling right now.

The interview that we got, however, was very good. I have no doubt that there was a lot of studio interference and that changed quite a bit of the script. Jackson was clearly drained from the experience as it went on. The post-production of BOTFA is depressing, in some ways, because it seems like the time that all their problems finally caught up with them. Special features for ROTK and DOS show that almost happening, but here is the time that the editing and visual effects were impacted by various different issues. It's sad. I love the movies, but one can only wonder what it would have been like if they'd had more pre-production time like LOTR and less influence.

To make things sadder (to me), I still think Jackson, Boyens, and Walsh loved Tolkien, alongside most of the other people in the cast and crew. I'm happy the movies were as good as they were, but who knows what could have happened with less interference.

Sorry for the rambling.


skyofcoffeebeans
Rivendell

Apr 7, 9:43pm

Post #21 of 43 (5717 views)
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I completely agree! [In reply to] Can't Post

Except I did find the videographer’s POV interesting.

But your point about unfiltered interviews... I want it from everyone. Guillermo, Boyens, and ESPECIALLY Fran Walsh.


Eruonen
Valinor


Apr 10, 7:12pm

Post #22 of 43 (5613 views)
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I like her efforts.....of course we can disagree with some things...but I think she captures [In reply to] Can't Post

many of the issues that affected the films.

I would not want to go all the way to NZ - cost, time etc. and look like a sourpuss. Her friend at least felt the joy.


AshNazg
Gondor


Apr 21, 9:50am

Post #23 of 43 (5264 views)
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Part 3 has more John Callen... [In reply to] Can't Post

Link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qi7t_g5QObs


DGHCaretaker
Registered User

Apr 21, 10:02pm

Post #24 of 43 (5241 views)
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This was a great video series [In reply to] Can't Post

I like Jenny Nicholson's personality more, but Lindsay Ellis did an awesome job in writing and producing these particular videos, making it even more interesting by blending a story structure mirroring that of the fiction with the reality of how the movie production transpired - going on an adventure (to NZ), quoting Sam with familiar things like "of course you are, and I'm going too" and "Well, I'm back" along with titles like "The battles of five studios." Really nicely done.

I LOLed at the end of video #2 where she has the studio making her do a third part of a two-part series. A bit of nice entertainment with a sense of humor framed around a serious topic.

And the videos addressed things without the rose-colored glasses. That's refreshing. I can enjoy a film more when it's approached honestly than when its problems are denied. Admitting its problems is the first step to recovery. ;)


(This post was edited by DGHCaretaker on Apr 21, 10:03pm)


Silmaril
Rohan


Apr 22, 9:40am

Post #25 of 43 (5175 views)
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Quite depressing... [In reply to] Can't Post

But well done! Poor Hobbit...Frown

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