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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
Guillermo del Toro’s The Hobbit - What Do We Know?
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Erethen
The Shire


Mar 18, 11:43pm

Post #1 of 41 (4059 views)
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Guillermo del Toro’s The Hobbit - What Do We Know? Can't Post

Ever since Guillermo’s The Shape of Water won big at the Oscars, I can’t help but be obsessed with thinking about his unproduced films. I enjoy The Hobbit films, but I can never shake the feeling these would have been something else.

So, I really just wanted to devote this to discussion on:

-Things We Knew For Sure
- Rumored Cast/Design
- Things We Hoped For

I’m desperate for any details on this thing!


Ataahua
Superuser / Moderator


Mar 19, 1:11am

Post #2 of 41 (3949 views)
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Hmm. [In reply to] Can't Post

There's been a fair bit of time between Guillermo's involvement and now but I'll try to remember what I can.

* He teased us with comments about how Smaug's design was reflective of his environment. I'm guessing that he either had Smaug as very long and skinny so that he could slither through tunnels, or his hide was chameleon-like so that he could hide while on top of the gold pile. I don't think it's ever been confirmed how much Smaug's design was changed (if at all) when Guillermo bowed out and PJ took over.
* He did confirm that when Smaug was in flight, his shape was reminiscent of a double-bladed axe (or similar).
* Can anyone remember if Guillermo had decided on trolls that rolled up into an armoured ball, of if that was rumour?
.

Celebrimbor: "Pretty rings..."
Dwarves: "Pretty rings..."
Men: "Pretty rings..."
Sauron: "Mine's better."

"Ah, how ironic, the addictive qualities of Sauron’s master weapon led to its own destruction. Which just goes to show, kids - if you want two small and noble souls to succeed on a mission of dire importance... send an evil-minded beggar with them too." - Gandalf's Diaries, final par, by Ufthak.


Ataahua's stories


Voronwë_the_Faithful
Valinor

Mar 19, 3:28am

Post #3 of 41 (3926 views)
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It was in the same New Yorker article in which he discussed Smaug [In reply to] Can't Post

Here is the link; it is worth revisiting: https://www.newyorker.com/.../07/show-the-monster

'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'

The Hall of Fire


Ataahua
Superuser / Moderator


Mar 19, 4:34am

Post #4 of 41 (3918 views)
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Thanks for linking to the article. [In reply to] Can't Post

There's a lot to work through there. It's interesting to see him planning movies that we know now didn't come to fruition.

Celebrimbor: "Pretty rings..."
Dwarves: "Pretty rings..."
Men: "Pretty rings..."
Sauron: "Mine's better."

"Ah, how ironic, the addictive qualities of Sauron’s master weapon led to its own destruction. Which just goes to show, kids - if you want two small and noble souls to succeed on a mission of dire importance... send an evil-minded beggar with them too." - Gandalf's Diaries, final par, by Ufthak.


Ataahua's stories


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Mar 19, 4:40am

Post #5 of 41 (3917 views)
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Yep! [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
It was in the same New Yorker article in which he discussed Smaug


I've referred to that exact article several times.

"I may be on the side of the angels, but do not think for one second that I am one of them." - Sherlock


Erethen
The Shire


Mar 19, 9:47pm

Post #6 of 41 (3834 views)
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Fascinating Article [In reply to] Can't Post

The tidbits in the article are incredibly interesting.

-A thin Smaug with t-rex arms.

-Thorin's antler helmet

-Digital sky replacements

-An armored rolling troll

This article is fascinating, so thank you for posting it. Hoping we'll have more info.

I really would love to hear his ideas on casting for these films.


Voronwë_the_Faithful
Valinor

Mar 20, 1:20pm

Post #7 of 41 (3732 views)
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If you have some time [In reply to] Can't Post

Look through the posts of the poster "Guillermo". You will find lots of information about Guillermo del Toro's thoughts about the Hobbit films.

'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'

The Hall of Fire


Eruonen
Valinor


Mar 20, 8:06pm

Post #8 of 41 (3681 views)
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I have to admit I was getting apprehensive about some of his design ideas.... [In reply to] Can't Post

My concern is that we would not recognize the film as having any roots to LOTR and would visually look totally alien.


Noria
Gondor

Mar 21, 3:29pm

Post #9 of 41 (3569 views)
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The Hobbit versus LotR [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
My concern is that we would not recognize the film as having any roots to LOTR and would visually look totally alien.


That was my fear too. Much as I like Guillermo del Toro and the movies of his that I've seen, his aesthetic is so different from Jackson's that his Hobbit movies would likely have hardly seemed to belong to the same world as the LotR trilogy. I didn't want that.

I was pleased when GdT was announced as director because he's great, but I was even happier when he was replaced by PJ. I love the Hobbit movies we got, warts and all.


Noria
Gondor

Mar 21, 3:37pm

Post #10 of 41 (3562 views)
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Martin Freeman [In reply to] Can't Post

I seem to half remember seeing a bit of video in which del Toro (I think) is watching some film showing Martin Freeman, perhaps in The Office. Del Toro laughs and says something like "Who is this guy? He's great!" Does anyone else remember this?

What about Saorise Ronan? Was it during del Toro's tenure that her name was linked to an Elven princess suffering from unrequited love?

Also, I believe that del Toro regulars Ron Perlman and Doug Jones were supposed to be cast.

I left my previous LotR site and came here after del Toro had left, so I didn't see any of his posts.


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Mar 21, 7:57pm

Post #11 of 41 (3511 views)
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Saoirse Ronan and Itaril [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
What about Saorise Ronan? Was it during del Toro's tenure that her name was linked to an Elven princess suffering from unrequited love?

Also, I believe that del Toro regulars Ron Perlman and Doug Jones were supposed to be cast.

I left my previous LotR site and came here after del Toro had left, so I didn't see any of his posts.


Even when Tauriel was still Itaril I'm not sure that I would have called her an "Elven princess". I think that January of 2010 was the first time that her name came up, and she was already being described as a Silvan Elf.


Quote
FEMALE, A WOODLAND ELF, this character is one the Silvan Elves. The Silvan Elves are seen as more earthy and practical. Shorter than other elves, she is still quick and lithe and physically adept, being able to fight with both sword and bow. Showing promise as a fighter at a young age, ITARIL was chosen to train to become part of the Woodland King’s Guard. This is the only life she has ever expected to live, until she meets and secretly falls in love with a young ELF LORD. This role will require a wig and contact lenses to be worn. Some prosthetic make-up may also be required. LEAD. AGE: 17-27. ACCENT – STANDARD R.P.


If I recall correctly, Ron Perlman was rumored for the role of Beorn. I think I would be surprised if GdT didn't have something in mind for Doug Jones.

"I may be on the side of the angels, but do not think for one second that I am one of them." - Sherlock


Noria
Gondor

Mar 22, 12:20pm

Post #12 of 41 (3403 views)
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Itaril [In reply to] Can't Post

Yes of course you're right. I remember now.

The Elven class issue was always going to be in this movie and the only thing that sort of changed was the object of Itaril/Tauriel's affection.

Now that you mention it, I also remember the Ron Perlman/Beorn talk.

As for Doug Jones, his physique and flexibility enable him to play all sorts on interesting creatures so he could be a good candidate for a role in The Hobbit. He's pretty good on Star Trek: Discovery.

Still not sorry things turned out as they did, but the topic is interesting.


L. Ron Halfelven
Grey Havens


Mar 22, 3:13pm

Post #13 of 41 (3379 views)
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Itaril would have been a good name for the "Elf, or prescription med?" quiz./ [In reply to] Can't Post

 

And Rose drew him in, and set him on the harpsichord bench, and put little Wilhelm Friedemann upon his lap.

He began composing a fugue. 'Well, I'm Bach,' he said.


Silmaril
Rohan


Mar 22, 3:15pm

Post #14 of 41 (3385 views)
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I think PJ was right... [In reply to] Can't Post

when he said that he does not think that it is a good idea to direct The Hobbit, because he does not want to compete with himself.

GDTs movies would have been very different and probably I would not have liked it. But it would not hurt me like PJs over the top adaption.


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Mar 22, 5:00pm

Post #15 of 41 (3373 views)
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Itaril [In reply to] Can't Post

The name Itaril doesn't seem to be either Quenya or Sindarin though it can be linked to Idril, the mother of Eärendil the Mariner, whose Quenya name could be given as either Itarillë or Itarildë. We could suppose that Itaril is the Silvan root.

"I may be on the side of the angels, but do not think for one second that I am one of them." - Sherlock


Noria
Gondor

Mar 22, 8:42pm

Post #16 of 41 (3345 views)
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Fair enough [In reply to] Can't Post

I remember PJ talking about not wanting to compete with himself and I figure that he decided to avoid that by taking a very different tone with The Hobbit.

I've said before that IMO, after the huge success of the epic LotR trilogy, there was no way that PJ was going to be able to make a small, sweet version of the children's tale The Hobbit, even if he wanted to. The studios paying for the movies wanted blockbusters and a great many fans wanted more movies like LotR. I did myself. If the plans to make TH first had come to fruition, who knows what would have happened. There still would have been juvenile humour and over-the-top action sequences, just like in LotR, because that is Peter Jackson.

I am sorry, however, that that you disliked The Hobbit movies to such an extent.


Eruonen
Valinor


Mar 23, 4:37pm

Post #17 of 41 (3220 views)
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But that was his own self inflicted decision to make a lot of over the top scenes. [In reply to] Can't Post

Had he been in the same mind of handling the story like the planning for FOTR he would have pulled off a more satisfying set of movies - at least for me. The lack of anyone willing or able to say - No, let us not do that...hurts him.


Dipling
Lorien

Mar 23, 8:42pm

Post #18 of 41 (3182 views)
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... [In reply to] Can't Post

But also some ideas, scenes came from the animators. Like Bombur river ride. And PJ should say no.


Silmaril
Rohan


Mar 24, 8:17am

Post #19 of 41 (3144 views)
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PJ asked them... [In reply to] Can't Post

to cum up with gags. The more over the top the better. Also Alan Lee and John Howe had to think biiiiig. I really dislike the Bombur barrel scene. What a nonsense. I always loved the barrel scene from the book.


(This post was edited by Silmaril on Mar 24, 8:29am)


Noria
Gondor

Mar 24, 8:20pm

Post #20 of 41 (3020 views)
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The Hobbit and LotR movies are not so completely different. [In reply to] Can't Post

In my opinion a number of action scenes in LotR were also over-the-top, such as Legolas and the Oliphaunt and the Avalanche of Skulls, to name just a couple.

The first time I saw Fellowship, I was quite taken aback by how small incidents in the book like the skirmish at Balin's tomb, Saruman's capture of Gandalf and the fight at Amon Hen had been hyped up and turned into major action sequences. I got used to this approach and even enjoy it.

I repeat: PJ had to make epic movies out of The Hobbit and larger than life action is just his style. The results were inevitable, given the circumstances. Yes he made choices and the fact that everybody, including me, doesn't always like them doesn't mean they were wrong.

For me, for every cheesy scene or overdone action sequence there is an Unexpected Party, a Riddles in the Dark, Bilbo's departure from Bag End, Rivendell, a Feast of Starlight, Balin and Thorin at the hidden door, Smaug, Thorin's death and Bilbo's grief and many more great scenes.


Eruonen
Valinor


Mar 24, 11:51pm

Post #21 of 41 (2998 views)
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And I had hoped for less of the [In reply to] Can't Post

"For me, for every cheesy scene or overdone action sequence..."

Yes, he had some of that in LOTR too....and I did not like them either.
But, we all have individual responses and tolerations, so as always there is a diversity of opinion.


Noria
Gondor

Mar 25, 12:08pm

Post #22 of 41 (2941 views)
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Agreed [In reply to] Can't Post

I didn't even really hope because I believed that certain amounts of cheese and silliness were inevitable. The first AUJ trailer, with the singing of Misty Mountains was thrilling but the second trailer, with the crevasse fall, was a reality check. Now that I think of it, the trailers together sum up Peter Jackson's Middle-earth movies perfectly: the sublime and the inane.

For me the good and the great of all six movies outweigh the bad, in fact they drown it. I can just let the things I don't care for pass by and enjoy the rest. I recognize that it doesn't work that way for everyone. It helps that I always wanted a bigger Hobbit movie that meshed with the larger LotR universe, book and movies.

For the record, I'm now fine with the Goblin chase and the crevasse fall.


Eruonen
Valinor


Mar 25, 2:15pm

Post #23 of 41 (2927 views)
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I agree too, overall, I am happy with the 6, more for LOTR but overall there are [In reply to] Can't Post

enough well done scenes to tip the balance.


MedwedtoBeorn
Rivendell

Mar 26, 9:28pm

Post #24 of 41 (2751 views)
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Casting and other tidbits [In reply to] Can't Post

The obvious is a two movie adaptation with a tighter narative to the book while still including the White Council-Dol Guldor subplot.

Beorn...Ron Perleman
Thranduil....Doug Jones
Thorin.....Ian McShane
Dain....Brian Blessed
Bilbo...Ian Holm

A couple GDT images of the Halls of the Elven King are in the BoFA appendice on Thranduil. Had an oriental flair, the elves and their armor/outfits looked more initimadating and slightly more faerie in nature.

Just some tidbits from, articles, TORN Tuesdays and other movie fansites. Apparently he was going to cast older with a more booklike Thorin in Ian McShane, Brian Blessed as Dain, and Ian Holm using makeup and cgi affect to deage.

Actors he had long collaborated with like Doug Jones and Ron Perleman were supposedly onboard as Thranduil and Beorn. Ron Perleman was going have a more important role and would have been the hero or u-catastrophe at the BoFA as he did in the book saving a wounded Thorin. Bolg would have been the leader of the orc army at the BoFA. Beorn's size and desing was much more impressive and very different from Michael Persbrandt and the marginally larger than normal grizzly bear that was the PJ version.

The female elf/captain of the guard subplot would have still been in and the subject of unrequietd love but no love triangle with Kili. Legolas would have had a much smaller role with less screen time.

According to Cliff on TORN Tuesdays and others, the WETA designers said some of their finesrt art, character, costume, and weapon design came during the two years GDT helmed it in pre-production. It would have been visually different than LotR, 2d filming with more location, physcal designs and less cgi/greenscreen.

It sounds like it would have captures some of the elements and a number of actors from the LotR but visually would have been a GDT movie. Also it sounds like the two movie adapatation placed more emphasis on inbook chracters and would have actors closer in age to book characters.


(This post was edited by MedwedtoBeorn on Mar 26, 9:40pm)


Silmaril
Rohan


Mar 27, 7:55am

Post #25 of 41 (2715 views)
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The ott scenes in LOTR were... [In reply to] Can't Post

really short in comparison to TH. I do not like them but the surfing of Legolas is only a few seconds long...and there's much more story!!!!

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