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The One Ring Forums: Off Topic: The Pollantir:
Would you open the door?
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Poll: Would you open the door?
Yes
No
I don't know
View Results (21 votes)
 

Kilidoescartwheels
Tol Eressea


Mar 9, 5:22pm

Post #1 of 37 (4610 views)
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Would you open the door? Can't Post

First, let me say I am not trying to be political here, this is more of a moral/philosophical question. Everybody probably knows that the USA experienced a horrific incident a couple of weeks ago, and as a result the University I work at decided to have an "active shooter" drill. We were all supposed to find a safe place to hide, lock the door & wait out the incident. Later I heard that there were at least 2 places where the students opened the door to let other people in. I was talking to the lady at the front desk (who tragically would probably be the first victim in a real scenario), and I told her that I didn't think I could NOT open the door. Yes I know it could be a risk, and my husband told me it would be a mistake, but it just seems wrong to not let other people in just because the door closed before they got there. Of course, if it ever happened (God forbid!) I may find that I'm too scared to move, much less open the door, so this could be a moot point. Please, I don't want to talk about the related issue, just whether or not you'd open the door, and I can only see three possible answers. But I'd really like to know what anyone else thinks about this.


Ataahua
Superuser / Moderator


Mar 9, 7:07pm

Post #2 of 37 (4463 views)
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I know that from a safety point of view [In reply to] Can't Post

the door should stay closed - not risk the safety of all those in the room for just one more person - but I wouldn't be able to deny them. I'd open it.


Darkstone
Immortal


Mar 9, 7:57pm

Post #3 of 37 (4464 views)
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Yes. [In reply to] Can't Post

If I survived and they didn't I couldn't live with myself.


(This post was edited by Darkstone on Mar 9, 7:58pm)


Annael
Half-elven


Mar 10, 6:35pm

Post #4 of 37 (4370 views)
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what he said [In reply to] Can't Post

a related poll--at least, it's what I thought of--is "would you run toward or away from" some trouble. Experience has taught me that I run toward it. If I see bullying, if I see someone mistreating a child or animal, if I see someone behaving suspiciously, I'm in their face before I know it. (One time I saw a neighbor hitting his dog and I have no memory of covering the 100 or so feet between us, I was just THERE.) I have the "fight" instinct. Rationally this could be seen as really stupid, but reason doesn't come into it.

So I'm not even sure I would be hiding.


Meneldor
Valinor


Mar 10, 8:58pm

Post #5 of 37 (4353 views)
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Exactly right. [In reply to] Can't Post

Better for a few people to be shot in the face as everyone rushes the shooter than for everyone to be shot in the back running away. Most normal people would have to overcome the natural survival instinct to do that, but doing the right thing is often hard, or else everyone would do it.


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Mar 11, 12:46am

Post #6 of 37 (4332 views)
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I'd like to think that I would open the door. [In reply to] Can't Post

We never really know unless we are actually faced with a choice like this.


Bracegirdle
Valinor


Mar 11, 1:23am

Post #7 of 37 (4338 views)
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Agreed with Meneldor & Annael . [In reply to] Can't Post

If a half-dozen people had gone ‘Beorn’ on this monster how many lives might have been saved? Hiding is for the FEW ineffective police or SROs - and the children of course . . .


But as Otaku says “We never really know unless we are actually faced with a choice like this.” Yet those of us that have been in actual combat know that the best defense is an overwhelming offence, in most cases.


Kilidoescartwheels
Tol Eressea


Mar 11, 4:20am

Post #8 of 37 (4315 views)
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I've always said [In reply to] Can't Post

that if I were 6 feet from any shooter that I'd go for the gun. Chances are good that anyone that close would be shot, so part of me thinks "what have you got to lose?" Now, whether I would actually do that, or freeze in terror, or duck behind something, is another subject. About 20(something) years ago, I studied Ju-Jitsu, and did learn how to disarm someone holding a gun - really not that difficult, if I recall, but I've been out of practice. But for some reason, people are suggesting that you "shout or throw something" at the shooter, which I think is TERRIBLE advice. That's like saying, "hey look, I'm a target!" Dumb, totally DUMB! Yes, I'd like to think if I were close I'd go for the gun, not trying to be macho or anything, that just might be the best way to survive.


Kilidoescartwheels
Tol Eressea


Mar 11, 4:34am

Post #9 of 37 (4313 views)
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I'd also like to think [In reply to] Can't Post

that if I actually saw the shooter that I'd try to get the gun away from him, as I mentioned in a post below. And I know that at one H.S. shooting (how much does it suck that there's so many?) that's exactly what happened - the shooter was tackled by some of the kids in the cafeteria, so that day it seems like only 2 people died. But more to the point, judging from the responses there are many who wouldn't follow the "protocol" of keeping the door locked and not coming out until the police give the all-clear. And that makes me wonder if the "protocol" is all that great to begin with. Everything about it feels wrong to me - if there's one shooter in a building with hundreds of people, then most likely whoever is knocking on the door is NOT the shooter. As Darkstone said, if I survived & they didn't, I couldn't live with that.


Ataahua
Superuser / Moderator


Mar 11, 7:00am

Post #10 of 37 (4301 views)
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I'm the opposite. [In reply to] Can't Post

I'd be low and running away to safety. I have intervened in one fight but it was more a struggle and it was in the car park of a police station, so I knew help would be on the way quickly. But with a gun involved? I'm gone. I'd rather be alive and helping in the aftermath.


(This post was edited by Ataahua on Mar 11, 7:01am)


Bracegirdle
Valinor


Mar 11, 4:16pm

Post #11 of 37 (4263 views)
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And rightfully so Ataahua [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
I'd be low and running away to safety.

Contrary to A popular opinion, in today’s ‘somewhat’ sick society there IS a difference between male and female. To expect the average woman to rush and attempt to disarm a crazed male killer with an AR-15 is ludicrous.


Starling
Half-elven


Mar 11, 5:31pm

Post #12 of 37 (4264 views)
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Speaking of ludicrous [In reply to] Can't Post

I wouldn't even know how to comment on this thread without 'getting political'.
The cultural differences here are so huge!


Ataahua
Superuser / Moderator


Mar 11, 8:21pm

Post #13 of 37 (4230 views)
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I think you and I are on the same page. / [In reply to] Can't Post

 


Kilidoescartwheels
Tol Eressea


Mar 11, 8:39pm

Post #14 of 37 (4237 views)
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Well I can understand that, but [In reply to] Can't Post

things are what they are in the USA and probably aren't going to change, so we have these drills. I understand Israel & other countries with active terrorists have similar drills. Sometimes I think that our lone shooters aren't that different from terrorists. I think that terror cells are just very good at recruiting lone shooter types, because it has to take a certain mindset to want to do something like that. The ONLY good thing that came out of Parkland is that the guy was captured alive, and therefore he could be studied, and maybe we can learn something about what sets these people off. Most of them kill themselves or die in a shootout with the police. But I need to stop now before this drifts into the political arena - my question was over the morality of being told to keep the door closed and IMO turn my back on others who are screaming for help. I just don't think I could do that. I'm glad to see I'm not the only one who feels that way.


Ataahua
Superuser / Moderator


Mar 11, 8:49pm

Post #15 of 37 (4237 views)
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FWIW, [In reply to] Can't Post

I would say the same about anyone, male or female. But that's our different world views.


In Reply To
To expect the average woman to rush and attempt to disarm a crazed male killer with an AR-15 is ludicrous.



Ethel Duath
Half-elven


Mar 11, 9:27pm

Post #16 of 37 (4226 views)
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I have exactly the same reaction--don't know how I get there [In reply to] Can't Post

but there I am.

I hope I would do the same with the door; but I've never been in that level of danger . . .


Bracegirdle
Valinor


Mar 12, 2:19am

Post #17 of 37 (4195 views)
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Cultural differences perhaps [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
The cultural differences here are so huge!

Age and experience for sure. My first instinct is to protect the children AND women. Old school and outdated thinking? I trust not. My choice of words may not have been the most sensible or comprehensible and I offer an apology to those offended, but I am saddened to have lived to see my country go from a morally high standard where this type of atrocity was unheard of to a country creeping its way to becoming irrationally divided with a bald unnecessary hatred. Is it a ‘cultural difference’ for a man to rush to the aid of a woman or child in distress? Of course not. But as I said there ARE differences between men and women, physically and mentally and psychologically. Men are larger, faster and stronger, and thus more suited for the confrontation in question. Women are less confrontational, more empathetic, and usually more spiritually enlightened, and thus more suited to comforting the children and dealing with the aftermath than attempting a physical confrontation with the shooter. (This is NOT intended to put either sex above the other!)
I hope I won’t again be too misunderstood as I’m really not really the insensitive guy my rash words might seem to portray… really!


Starling
Half-elven


Mar 12, 6:21am

Post #18 of 37 (4175 views)
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I think [In reply to] Can't Post


But I need to stop now before this drifts into the political arena


the horse has well and truly bolted on that one.



Starling
Half-elven


Mar 12, 6:37am

Post #19 of 37 (4174 views)
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My comment about cultural differences [In reply to] Can't Post

was not referencing gender specifically.

But since you bring it up here, I don't find it particularly useful to apply what I would consider to be gender stereotypes to anything.


Darkstone
Immortal


Mar 12, 3:25pm

Post #20 of 37 (4130 views)
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Dunno [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Contrary to A popular opinion, in today’s ‘somewhat’ sick society there IS a difference between male and female. To expect the average woman to rush and attempt to disarm a crazed male killer with an AR-15 is ludicrous.


How about rushing a polar bear?

http://www.informationliberation.com/?id=6574


Ciars
Rohan


Mar 12, 7:18pm

Post #21 of 37 (4090 views)
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Doors [In reply to] Can't Post

To me this is one of those questions which can’t be answered. It’s also hard to avoid being political in response as my initial reaction would be one of why you would be /are placed in that position to begin with. There’s a myriad of possible causes leading to the need for the question to be posed or indeed dealt with in real life all of which stem from the source, that is how did the situation arise in the first place? Which probably comes down to a failure of either government, health agencies, other authorities in say education, family, social work, stores, individual / society pressures and reaction to, mental health care, which have lead directly or indirectly to the situation arriving in the first place. To me, the question really is how to manage the doors needing to be closed or opened, indeed why the need for drills in the first place. Sadly, in the times we live in there seems to be a react rather than prevent response after events such as that in Parkland which led to drills being held which (apologies) again dangerously verges on a political view. In short, it does come down to the timing and reasoning behind the door action: who closes them, who controls them, and who then opens them.


(This post was edited by Ciars on Mar 12, 7:33pm)


Darkstone
Immortal


Mar 13, 3:59am

Post #22 of 37 (4047 views)
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Yes [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
But as Otaku says “We never really know unless we are actually faced with a choice like this.” Yet those of us that have been in actual combat...



After having been in combat that you no longer have to wonder what kind of person you are.



In Reply To
... know that the best defense is an overwhelming offence, in most cases."


As Tolkien surely learned. Which is why the staggeringly foolish quest of destroying the ring was the best defense against it.


Bracegirdle
Valinor


Mar 13, 10:15pm

Post #23 of 37 (3979 views)
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Enjoy [In reply to] Can't Post

One post to go. About twelve sentences or twenty-four half sentences (your choice) that desperately need twisting. Indulge yourself. :)


In Reply To
After having been in combat that you no longer have to wonder what kind of person you are.

I’m not at all cognizant of the meaning of this sentence. Should I be insulted?


Darkstone
Immortal


Mar 14, 3:01am

Post #24 of 37 (3914 views)
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Well! [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
One post to go. About twelve sentences or twenty-four half sentences (your choice) that desperately need twisting. Indulge yourself. :)


That you think I am twisting your words is quite puzzling.

That you state that I would enjoy doing so is quite insulting.



In Reply To

In Reply To
After having been in combat that you no longer have to wonder what kind of person you are.

I’m not at all cognizant of the meaning of this sentence.


I am merely agreeing with your agreement with Otaku that only once one has been through an actual crucible of fire, such as, as you yourself suggested, actual combat, does one have true self-knowledge of how one would act in such a situation. Such self-knowledge may be either heartening or disheartening. I was of course using the pronoun "you" as a generality, not in reference to you specifically. Perhaps restating it as "After having been in combat one no longer has to wonder what kind of person one is" would allay your unwarranted suspicions.



In Reply To
Should I be insulted?


I suppose some would find the presumptuous and unsolicited support of one's stated opinion by an ignorant old country boy like myself insulting.


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Mar 14, 10:13am

Post #25 of 37 (3865 views)
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Confused by sentence construction? [In reply to] Can't Post

I think Bracegirdle is only being half-serious, but he also seems to be confused by the odd construction of your sentence.


Quote
After having been in combat that you no longer have to wonder what kind of person you are.


You have to admit, Darkstone, that it doesn't read well as a stand-alone sentence. I think B. was having trouble placing it in its proper context.


(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Mar 14, 10:16am)

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