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Speculation: Migrations of Eastern Elves and Dwarves

Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Mar 2, 4:30pm

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Speculation: Migrations of Eastern Elves and Dwarves Can't Post

Earlier I was in the Middle-earth Roleplaying forums at Cubicle 7, and a question was asked about the Wood-elves' "kinsfolk in the South" as mentioned in The Hobbit. The easy answer is that Bilbo was referring to the Elves of Lothlórien, though contact between Lórien and the Woodland Realm probably waned anywhere from 500 to 1000 years previously.

That did get me thinking (again) about the East-elves and their possible movements in the centuries following the Great Journey. I've wondered if Avari Elves might have wandered south along the East Sea into the Hither Lands, eventually to colonize rain forests in what would become Far Harad. East-elves might have also come to inhabit the wood north of the Sea of Rhûn, trading with their neighbors in Dorwinion. They might even be the source of the strong Dorwinion wines.



Dwarves from the East might have settled in the hills south of Dorwinion. The prospect of Dwarves settling in the distant South seems less likely, if only because they would have to travel long distances in order to reach mountains in the Hither Lands. The Mountains of Mordor didn't seem to exist before the Second Age, though Dwarves might have attempted to colonize them during one of the periods when Sauron was quiet (the first centuries of the Third Age or the years of the Watchful Peace). Dwarves fleeing south from the Mountains of Shadow would have had to cross the deserts of Haradwaith to reach the mountains of Far Harad south of Umbar.

I am basing my observations on Karen Wynn Fonstad's maps extrapolated from Tolkien's sketched map of Arda in the First Age, so there is a lot of room for speculation and debate on the subject. It is entirely possible that Tolkien would have made major revisions if he had taken the opportunity to revisit his map. Here is Tolkien's original sketch:



"I may be on the side of the angels, but do not think for one second that I am one of them." - Sherlock

(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Mar 2, 4:40pm)


Wainrider
Bree

Mar 5, 4:06am

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Dwarves [In reply to] Can't Post

Well there are supposed to be 7 houses of Dwarves right? So they could be anywhere. I think the gray mountain was listed as a place with Dwarves.


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Mar 5, 5:20am

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The Seven Houses of the Dwarves [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Well there are supposed to be 7 houses of Dwarves right? So they could be anywhere. I think the gray mountain was listed as a place with Dwarves.


Yes, the Dwarves of the Grey Mountains were Durin's Folk from T.A. 2190 to 2590 when many of them left Erebor to found halls in the Ered Mithrin. Dragons attacked those halls and Thrór led many of his folk back to Lonely Mountain while his brother Grór founded the colony in the Iron Hills.

The Dwarves of the Blue Mountains made up two of the Seven Houses of the Dwarves: It's thought that the Firebeards might have been the Dwarves of Nogrod and the Broadbeams may have founded Belegost.

The remaining Houses were in the Orocarni mountains in the East. The Ironfists and Stiffbeards are thought to have awakened in the northern Orocarni, while the Blacklocks and Stonefoots originated in the southern part of the range. The Dwarves I've placed in the Hills of Rhovanion south of Dorwinion are of the House of the Blacklocks. The oppression by servants of the Shadow in the East could have served as a motive for them to settle next to the Sea of Rhûn.

"I may be on the side of the angels, but do not think for one second that I am one of them." - Sherlock

(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Mar 5, 5:24am)


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Mar 5, 8:01am

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Urul Mountains = Orocarni? [In reply to] Can't Post

Studying Tolkien's original sketch of Arda and comparing it to modern maps of Europe and Russia, it looks like the Urul Mountains in Russia and Kazakhstan (including the Guberlinskiy hillocks and Mugodzhar Hills) could be thought of as the remnants of the Orocarni (the Mountains of the East; literally 'red mountains') where the four eastern Houses of the Dwarves first awoke. That would place Cuiviénen (where the Elves first awoke) somewhere near the Russian/Kazakhstan border north of the Caspian Sea, and Hildórien (where Men first awoke in Tolkien's legendarium) in south-central Kazakhstan.

It would seem that the lands of the distant East must have become extended sometime after the First Age and the transition from Middle-earth to the historical world as much of what would become East Asia would have been underwater.



"I may be on the side of the angels, but do not think for one second that I am one of them." - Sherlock


Hamfast Gamgee
Grey Havens

Mar 20, 12:02am

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Elven movements [In reply to] Can't Post

If many of the Elves did move to the far eastern lands and became forgotten maybe they became wilder and less like Elves. When the Elder first met the Orcs some thought that the Orcs were Avari gone wild, the text says that they where corrupted by the long,slow arts of Morgoth, but it could be possible that those Elder where more accurate than they imagines for some of the Avari.


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Mar 20, 12:33pm

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The Long, Slow Fall of the Avari [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
If many of the Elves did move to the far eastern lands and became forgotten maybe they became wilder and less like Elves. When the Elder first met the Orcs some thought that the Orcs were Avari gone wild, the text says that they where corrupted by the long,slow arts of Morgoth, but it could be possible that those Elder where more accurate than they imagines for some of the Avari.


I suppose that might be possible. though only Professor Tolkien would have known for sure. The Avari would have also been the first Elves to be encountered by the newly awakened Men (and the four eastern houses of the Dwarves) and so their ancient mode of the Silvan tongue might have been the first language that they learned. I don't see the Avari as becoming much changed physically through the ages of Middle-earth, but they would have been subject to the same weariness and fading as their Woodland kin in Rhovanion.

By the way: The Three Kindreds of the Elves that took part in the Great Journey were known as the Eldar, not Elder (as in the Elder Days).

"I may be on the side of the angels, but do not think for one second that I am one of them." - Sherlock


Hamfast Gamgee
Grey Havens

Mar 21, 10:15pm

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Sorry about the spelling [In reply to] Can't Post

I thought I might get it wrong if I didn't look it up, I often do with that one. I hope the good Prof wouldn't have minded though he could be a stickler for spelling. Still, perhaps that was the way some of the Avari would spell the word in the wild!
And as far as the Avari, they could be, well, dangerous to say the least if one was unaware of them. We have seen that Elves like Eol could turn nasty some of those in Thingol's realm and dare one say it some of those in Mirkwood. And some of those wild ones that lived in Beleriand in the first age, but didn't take part with the Noldor activities but remained wild and lived in the South-East of the lands. The colour of whom I totally forget without looking up the same copy of the Silm I couldn't find to check my Elven spelling!


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Mar 21, 10:48pm

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The Nandor in Beleriand [In reply to] Can't Post

I think you are referring to the Green-elves, a.k.a. the Laiquendi. Yes, they were supposed to have lived much like their Avari kin, even retaining much of their language (if I am remembering correctly). The Nandor who never crossed into Beleriand might have represented a segment of the Wood-elves of the Greenwood and Lothlórien, along with East-elves who eventually came to Rhovanion.

The Avari were certainly less sophisticated than the Eldar, but I think it would be a mistake to think of them as feral or savage. I do agree that they were generally more wild and less wise than their western cousins.

"I may be on the side of the angels, but do not think for one second that I am one of them." - Sherlock

 
 

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