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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Reading Room:
Dragon Helm of Hador (and Turin) question

Registered User

Feb 11 2018, 7:57am

Post #1 of 8 (3127 views)
Dragon Helm of Hador (and Turin) question Can't Post

Hi everyone!

Was it ever explained when Turin lost the Dragon Helm of Hador? Was it when he was captured by the orcs at Amon Rudh? It was such a large plot point when Beleg brought it back to him, but it never seems to be mentioned when he lost it.

Superuser / Moderator

Feb 11 2018, 8:04am

Post #2 of 8 (3112 views)
Hey there. [In reply to] Can't Post

I don't have an answer for your question but I wanted to welcome you to TORN - and that's a great nick that you've chosen. Cool

What I will do is move this discussion to the Reading Room because some of the denizens there will have the answer you're looking for. Smile

Celebrimbor: "Pretty rings..."
Dwarves: "Pretty rings..."
Men: "Pretty rings..."
Sauron: "Mine's better."

"Ah, how ironic, the addictive qualities of Sauron’s master weapon led to its own destruction. Which just goes to show, kids - if you want two small and noble souls to succeed on a mission of dire importance... send an evil-minded beggar with them too." - Gandalf's Diaries, final par, by Ufthak.

Ataahua's stories

Registered User

Feb 11 2018, 8:17am

Post #3 of 8 (3103 views)
Re: Hey there. [In reply to] Can't Post

Ok great! And thanks. I wasn't sure if I should put it in Reading Room or not!


Feb 11 2018, 9:56am

Post #4 of 8 (3096 views)
Hi Niceferatu! Welcome to TORn [In reply to] Can't Post

I don't have my copy of The Children of Húrin with me so I'm not sure if there is more or different information there, but Christopher Tolkien discussed the chain of events surrounding the helm in his commentary to version of the Narn found in Unfinished Tales:

It may be noted here that it was my father's intention to extend the history of the Dragon-helm of Dor-lómin into the period of Túrin's sojourn in Nargothrond and even beyond; but this was never incorporated into the narratives. In the existing versions the Helm disappears with the end of Dor-Cúarthol, in the destruction of the outlaws' stronghold on Amon Rûdh; but in some way it was to reappear in Túrin's possession at Nargothrond. It could only have come there if it had been taken by the Orcs that carried Túrin off to Angband; but its recovery from them at the time of Túrin's rescue by Beleg and Gwindor would have required some development of the narrative at that point.

Registered User

Feb 11 2018, 5:08pm

Post #5 of 8 (3044 views)
Reply to: Hi Niceferatu! Welcome to TORn [In reply to] Can't Post

Great! Thank you. That's what I suspected: It was a part of the story that wasn't fully developed at the time of Tolkien's death. I found it odd that Turin never faced Glaurung (at either encounter) wearing the helm that bore Glaurung's likeness on it. Sounds like it was Tolkien's intention to include it.


Feb 12 2018, 2:42pm

Post #6 of 8 (2989 views)
For all we know, it was lost in the Fall of Nargothrond, or Turin abandoned it when he started living among the people of Haleth. [In reply to] Can't Post

If it had an enchantment on it protects the wearer from all wounds, Turin would not have been wounded.

Theoretically, and if there was an enchantment on it at all...

I always follow my job through.

Grey Havens

Feb 12 2018, 3:13pm

Post #7 of 8 (2992 views)
you may be aware of this stuff but... [In reply to] Can't Post

... adding to Eldo's already sufficient explanation, Christopher Tokien refers to an isolated note among the Narn which reads:

"Beleg searching the orc-camp [in Taur-nu-Fuin] finds the Dragon-helm -- or was it set on Turin's head in mockery by the orcs that tormented him? Thus it was born away to Nargothrond, but Turin would not wear it again, lest it reveal him, until the Battle of Dalath Dirnen."

Glaurung was to taunt Turin, saying "surely Turin claimed to be his vassal and retainer, since he bore his master's likeness on the crest of his helm. (... edit by me for brevity) And indeed so great was the terror of the Dragon that Turin dared not look straight upon his eye, but had kept the visor of his helmet down, shielding his face, and in his parley had looked no higher than Glauring's feet. But being thus taunted, in pride and rashness he thrust up the visor and looked Glaurung in the eye."

Tolkien also noted that something should be said of the visor "how it protected they eyes from all darts (and from Dragon-eyes)." Christopher Tolkien also notes the "suggestion" that Turin was to wear the Helm while he slew Glauring, and would taunt the Dragon at his death with his words at Nargothrond about a "master of another name"

Although in my laziness typing out the full note, I didn't include the "master of another name" part!

... cough...

... but anyway bothe (I can't even write "both the" without being lazy) short prose selection (chapter in Silmarillion) and the long prose Narn utilize the Dwarf-mask of course.

In my personal Simarillion, Turin wears the Helm at both encounters with the dragon.

(This post was edited by Elthir on Feb 12 2018, 3:20pm)


Feb 12 2018, 3:22pm

Post #8 of 8 (2984 views)
Mine too [In reply to] Can't Post

My personal biggest disappointment about the published version of The Children of Hurin was that Christopher failed to incorporate the Dragon-helm appropriately into the tale.

'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'

The Hall of Fire


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