Our Sponsor Sideshow Collectibles Send us News
Lord of the Rings Tolkien
Search Tolkien
Lord of The RingsTheOneRing.net - Forged By And For Fans Of JRR Tolkien
Lord of The Rings Serving Middle-Earth Since The First Age

Lord of the Rings Movie News - J.R.R. Tolkien
Do you enjoy the 100% volunteer, not for profit services of TheOneRing.net?
Consider a donation!

  Main Index   Search Posts   Who's Online   Log in
The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Main:
Silmarillion Film Project and Cast
First page Previous page 1 2 Next page Last page  View All

Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Feb 11, 1:33am

Post #26 of 44 (2303 views)
Shortcut
Elladan and Elrohir [In reply to] Can't Post

Ideally, I would like to see twins or at least brothers play Elrond's sons (both born in T.A. 139), though that could make casting difficult. If Celebrían is part of the framing sequences for Season 2 then I presume these sequences are set before the year 2509 and her capture by Orcs.


In Reply To
...Colin Morgan = I don't think so, mainly because he has a certain delicate look to him that conflicts with the life of these two brothers living ruggedly in endless vendetta against Orcs for the rape of their mother.


You're making a huge assumption here, CG, about the capture of Celebrían. Tolkien never states or even tries to imply that she was sexually assaulted. In a more realistic world we might infer that, but it seems presumptuous to state it firmly, as fact.

"I may be on the side of the angels, but do not think for one second that I am one of them." - Sherlock


Attalus
Lorien


Feb 11, 6:09am

Post #27 of 44 (2282 views)
Shortcut
? [In reply to] Can't Post

"Their mother's torment in the dens of the Orcs" is at least suggestive
Edit: Stupid Autocorrect Pirate

We are the fighting Uruk-Hai! We slew the great warrior! Well, yeah, first he killed a bunch of us and another whole lot of Mauhúr's lads, and we had to shoot enough arrows into him to drop a Mûmak. But we got him!

(This post was edited by Attalus on Feb 11, 6:10am)


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Feb 11, 6:52am

Post #28 of 44 (2277 views)
Shortcut
Torment can mean many things. [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
"Their mother's torment in the dens of the Orcs" is at least suggestive


But far from definitive. That is an extreme interpretation of Tolkien's passage.

"I may be on the side of the angels, but do not think for one second that I am one of them." - Sherlock

(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Feb 11, 6:56am)


Attalus
Lorien


Feb 11, 2:42pm

Post #29 of 44 (2258 views)
Shortcut
"Torment," revisited [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To

In Reply To
"Their mother's torment in the dens of the Orcs" is at least suggestive


But far from definitive. That is an extreme interpretation of Tolkien's passage.

True, Tollers was never explicit about sexual themes.- a true Victorian in outlook, anyway. But anyone who has read about the Gestapo and their "torment" of captured spies and saboteurs will find at least a hint. I find it difficult to believe that Orcs were total gentlemen at all times, and how else could Saruman blended the races of Men and Orcs? Unsure

We are the fighting Uruk-Hai! We slew the great warrior! Well, yeah, first he killed a bunch of us and another whole lot of Mauhúr's lads, and we had to shoot enough arrows into him to drop a Mûmak. But we got him!


Eledhwen
Forum Admin / Moderator


Feb 11, 4:14pm

Post #30 of 44 (2256 views)
Shortcut
I have the opposite reaction on Elladan and Elrohir [In reply to] Can't Post

I've always found Ben Whishaw very delicate in his roles - he's very pretty really though a superb actor, and I think you need someone more warrior-like for a son of Elrond. Also he's too short for an Elf, he's only 5'9"! (Although according to IMBD he's a twin, so appropriate in that sense). I love Colin Morgan and think he'd make a good Elladan or Elrohir. They both do have unusual good looks though which would suit. But really these two need to be similar-looking, given the way they're described and their canonical birthdate which must make them twins, as most fandom has it.

Storm clouds


squire
Half-elven


Feb 11, 11:07pm

Post #31 of 44 (2220 views)
Shortcut
I would go with the "strong possibility to definite" on this one. [In reply to] Can't Post

As Attalus notes, when males 'torment' females, it is extremely common that the torment is sexual violation of more or less painful and violent kind. And the orcs are humanoid enough that they can cross-breed with Men and Elves, in this imaginary world, so there's none of that "why would an alien desire a human female?" angle here.

Tolkien is, of course, very reticent in acknowledging this aspect of humanity, and his strictures on the sex lives of the Elves are absolutely fascinating in their fidelity and almost-innocence relative to the spectrum of sexual behaviors in the real world. Long-time TORn poster Curious once argued, with solid reasoning and analysis, that extramarital rape was simply not possible among Men and Elves in Middle-earth; the bad guys always married their unwilling female victims! He made it clear it was an authorial dictum, not a biological or ethical prohibition. He did not include Orcs in his analysis, if I remember though.

The fact is, people of Tolkien's generation never used the word 'rape' any more than a lot of other explicit words that we are more used to in public discourse these days. They used euphemisms that everyone understood. The trope of the purity of a noblewoman being violated by criminals of the lower classes (pirates, bandits, slumdwellers, enemy soldiers, natives in the colonies, blacks in the U.S., etc.) - meaning rape - had extreme emotional power in Tolkien's period, and appears in an almost infinite range of genre literature, drama, and illustration. Of course we cannot prove a negative, but I think there's a large factor of cultural norm that we should apply to Tolkien's writing here.



squire online:
RR Discussions: The Valaquenta, A Shortcut to Mushrooms, and Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit
Lights! Action! Discuss on the Movie board!: 'A Journey in the Dark'. and 'Designing The Two Towers'.
Archive: All the TORn Reading Room Book Discussions (including the 1st BotR Discussion!) and Footerama: "Tolkien would have LOVED it!"
Dr. Squire introduces the J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia: A Reader's Diary


= Forum has no new posts. Forum needs no new posts.


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Feb 12, 12:04am

Post #32 of 44 (2217 views)
Shortcut
Definitely Possible [In reply to] Can't Post

Personally, I would stop at "strong possibility". In a literary world that skewed more closely to our own reality I would say that the possibility that Celebrían was sexually assaulted by her Orc-captors was virtually certain. However, Tolkien's Middle-earth is different enough from the real world to raise more doubt. She was doubtless tormented in a number of ways and might well have been physically tortured. Whether that included rape is still debatable. Granted, that would go a long way towards explaining the depth of Celebrían's depression that led her to take ship into the West the following year.

"I may be on the side of the angels, but do not think for one second that I am one of them." - Sherlock


squire
Half-elven


Feb 12, 1:20am

Post #33 of 44 (2206 views)
Shortcut
Yes [In reply to] Can't Post

You make a good point against my previous post: the fact is that Tolkien's world is not ours in many ways, one dimension of which is the sexual. Per Curious' argument that rape was simply not possible among Men or Elves, even if we give the Orcs more leeway in the direction of sin, it's entirely possible that - in Middle-earth - Celebrian's "torment" was not actually sexual in execution.



squire online:
RR Discussions: The Valaquenta, A Shortcut to Mushrooms, and Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit
Lights! Action! Discuss on the Movie board!: 'A Journey in the Dark'. and 'Designing The Two Towers'.
Archive: All the TORn Reading Room Book Discussions (including the 1st BotR Discussion!) and Footerama: "Tolkien would have LOVED it!"
Dr. Squire introduces the J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia: A Reader's Diary


= Forum has no new posts. Forum needs no new posts.


ange1e4e5
Rohan

Feb 12, 2:38pm

Post #34 of 44 (2166 views)
Shortcut
Well, rape is still present in the Silmarillion; just ask Aredhel. [In reply to] Can't Post

And didn't Maeglin's price for betraying Gondolin include Idril? Since she loved Tuor, she wouldn't want to have sex with Maeglin, and unwilling sex is rape.

I always follow my job through.


Darkstone
Immortal


Feb 12, 3:04pm

Post #35 of 44 (2159 views)
Shortcut
Or Aerin. / [In reply to] Can't Post

 

******************************************
I met a Balrog on the stair.
He had some wings that weren't there.
They weren't there again today.
I wish he would just fly away.





Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Feb 12, 4:12pm

Post #36 of 44 (2157 views)
Shortcut
Does it count if it never actually happened? [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
And didn't Maeglin's price for betraying Gondolin include Idril? Since she loved Tuor, she wouldn't want to have sex with Maeglin, and unwilling sex is rape.


There is a threat of rape (and incest) there, but I don't think that union ever took place.

"I may be on the side of the angels, but do not think for one second that I am one of them." - Sherlock


ange1e4e5
Rohan

Feb 12, 4:17pm

Post #37 of 44 (2155 views)
Shortcut
I don't think Maeglin got the chance, I'm just saying that was part of his deal with Morgoth. [In reply to] Can't Post

It does say something in the book Morgoth's Ring that Elves that are raped lose the will to live and go to Mandos.

So that might have happened if Maeglin had his way with Idril.

I always follow my job through.


ange1e4e5
Rohan

Feb 12, 4:27pm

Post #38 of 44 (2154 views)
Shortcut
Response to Cast Reactions [In reply to] Can't Post

I know there was at least one member who strongly supported Elizabeth Debicki as Galadriel, partially for height (Debicki is 6'3", Kruger is 5'7"), and age (Galadriel is among the younger members of the third generation of Noldor).

Tom Hiddleston was my personal pick for Fingolfin, as it would be a slight departure from his roles as Loki in the MCU and Prince Hal in The Hollow Crown; different yet similar. Dan Stevens was my pick for Finarfin. I would have liked Tom Hardy as Feanor and David Tennant for Eol, but everyone is entitled to their opinion.

Nominating for Season 3, which is primarily the third generation of Noldor, plus some roles among the Sindar. Will post results when they are up; not likely until March.

I always follow my job through.


ange1e4e5
Rohan

Feb 12, 10:37pm

Post #39 of 44 (2135 views)
Shortcut
What were your thoughts on Mairon, or Sauron as he was later called? [In reply to] Can't Post

I actually didn't like their pick, Simon Woods. Would have gone with Adam Driver instead.

I always follow my job through.


Eldorion
Gondor


Feb 13, 12:24am

Post #40 of 44 (2128 views)
Shortcut
Adam Driver would be a great pick, I agree // [In reply to] Can't Post

 


CuriousG
Half-elven


Feb 13, 1:12am

Post #41 of 44 (2125 views)
Shortcut
Sauron? Could we use Tom Hidddleston again? [In reply to] Can't Post

I’m probably being lazy. He makes a good Loki, so why wouldn’t he make a good First/Second Age Sauron? Well, the more I think about it, he would.


ange1e4e5
Rohan

Feb 13, 1:24am

Post #42 of 44 (2122 views)
Shortcut
I’m afraid we aren’t. [In reply to] Can't Post

Otherwise I’d say use Alicia Vikander again for Luthien and Liam Hemsworth for Turin.

I always follow my job through.


ange1e4e5
Rohan

Feb 16, 4:50pm

Post #43 of 44 (1994 views)
Shortcut
Chris Pine as Gothmog [In reply to] Can't Post

Well, the idea for him was that he was going to a more princely type, up until the destruction of the Lamps, then he’s going to be under a load of makeup. And believe me, this is one of the roles that I was very iffy on.

I always follow my job through.

(This post was edited by ange1e4e5 on Feb 16, 4:51pm)


ange1e4e5
Rohan

Feb 19, 6:22pm

Post #44 of 44 (1763 views)
Shortcut
Now all the forums for Signum University are down. [In reply to] Can't Post

 

I always follow my job through.

First page Previous page 1 2 Next page Last page  View All
 
 

Search for (options) Powered by Gossamer Forum v.1.2.3

home | advertising | contact us | back to top | search news | join list | Content Rating

This site is maintained and updated by fans of The Lord of the Rings, and is in no way affiliated with Tolkien Enterprises or the Tolkien Estate. We in no way claim the artwork displayed to be our own. Copyrights and trademarks for the books, films, articles, and other promotional materials are held by their respective owners and their use is allowed under the fair use clause of the Copyright Law. Design and original photography however are copyright © 1999-2012 TheOneRing.net. Binary hosting provided by Nexcess.net

Do not follow this link, or your host will be blocked from this site. This is a spider trap.