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Woodland Realm and Lothlorien during the war of the elves and Sauron
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Victariongreyjoy
Rivendell


Jan 2, 5:24pm

Post #1 of 38 (4144 views)
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Woodland Realm and Lothlorien during the war of the elves and Sauron Can't Post

Where were the Woodland and Lothlorien elves doing during that time? Were they just hiding? Would Sauron eventually turn his eyes against them?


CuriousG
Half-elven


Jan 2, 10:45pm

Post #2 of 38 (4042 views)
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From sketchy memory [In reply to] Can't Post

Galadriel & Celeborn traveled to Lorien after Amroth died to give it leadership in the fight against Sauron, considering it a major strategic location that couldn't be abandoned. And it proved useful in opposing Dol Guldur's power as well as saving Rivendell from an attack.

Both Mirkwood and Lorien sent Elves to fight in the Last Alliance, though you're asking about before that. My point is that they were Sauron's natural enemies; he might befriend Men, but he either never tried with Elves (except by deception in Hollin), or he simply hated Elves too much to make peace with them, the same way no one ever talks about making peace with Orcs, just killing them. So I don't think Sauron might "eventually" turn against them, I think he was always against them. He was probably more interested in Gil-Galad's realm in Lindon since it had the most Noldor, making it a bigger prize in war and also a bigger threat.

Or to put it another way: if those two woodland nations thought they were hiding from him, they weren't hiding very well, but he had other fish to fry.

But what do you think Sauron's attitude was toward the Wandering Companies? (which Gildor describes in capital letters) Would Sauron have considered them a threat, or a nuisance he could ignore? They were powerful enough to scare off a Nazgul just by their singing.


Victariongreyjoy
Rivendell


Jan 3, 10:40pm

Post #3 of 38 (3998 views)
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Wandering companies [In reply to] Can't Post

So their magic is so strong, the nazgul would just flee from them, like when Gandalf chased them away with this powers?

Could Sauron and his army conquer Lothlorien and Mirkwoord if the help from Numenor never came to the rescue?


CuriousG
Half-elven


Jan 4, 4:41am

Post #4 of 38 (3983 views)
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Well [In reply to] Can't Post

I think it's clear that Sauron would have conquered all of Middle-earth in the 2nd Age unless Numenor had intervened. Those kingdoms included.


entmaiden
Forum Admin / Moderator


Jan 4, 5:47pm

Post #5 of 38 (3944 views)
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Just want to pop in with a reminder [In reply to] Can't Post

about our Terms of Service.

You can find all of them here, but I want to highlight one that is relevant right now:

Similarly, please limit the number of threads you start to 5 on page 1 of any board at a time to give everyone's threads a chance to be read and discussed.

We know the boards are slower right now, so it's not as easy to find topics to discuss, but maybe you can cluster your questions in one post and give people some time to reflect and respond. Due to the excellent chapter discussions here, the RRR (Reading Room Regulars) are very accustomed to posts with multiple questions!

Thanks for understanding.



Victariongreyjoy
Rivendell


Jan 4, 11:31pm

Post #6 of 38 (3909 views)
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Sorry [In reply to] Can't Post

Okay, I won't make another thread in a long time. It's just I'm so into MIddle Earth lore lately after the Amazon news.


Darkstone
Immortal


Jan 4, 11:35pm

Post #7 of 38 (3912 views)
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Perhaps [In reply to] Can't Post

You could post any new questions to one of your existing tbreads.

******************************************
The audacious proposal stirred his heart. And the stirring became a song, and it mingled with the songs of Gil-galad and Celebrian, and with those of Feanor and Fingon. The song-weaving created a larger song, and then another, until suddenly it was as if a long forgotten memory woke and for one breathtaking moment the Music of the Ainur revealed itself in all glory. He opened his lips to sing and share this song. Then he realized that the others would not understand. Not even Mithrandir given his current state of mind. So he smiled and simply said "A diversion.




Ataahua
Superuser / Moderator


Jan 5, 3:20am

Post #8 of 38 (3900 views)
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Yes, that is a good approach. [In reply to] Can't Post

New discussions can be started within the same thread.

Celebrimbor: "Pretty rings..."
Dwarves: "Pretty rings..."
Men: "Pretty rings..."
Sauron: "Mine's better."

"Ah, how ironic, the addictive qualities of Saurons master weapon led to its own destruction. Which just goes to show, kids - if you want two small and noble souls to succeed on a mission of dire importance... send an evil-minded beggar with them too." - Gandalf's Diaries, final par, by Ufthak.


Ataahua's stories


Darkstone
Immortal


Jan 5, 3:38am

Post #9 of 38 (3880 views)
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Or the same tbread. / [In reply to] Can't Post

 

******************************************
The audacious proposal stirred his heart. And the stirring became a song, and it mingled with the songs of Gil-galad and Celebrian, and with those of Feanor and Fingon. The song-weaving created a larger song, and then another, until suddenly it was as if a long forgotten memory woke and for one breathtaking moment the Music of the Ainur revealed itself in all glory. He opened his lips to sing and share this song. Then he realized that the others would not understand. Not even Mithrandir given his current state of mind. So he smiled and simply said "A diversion.




Attalus
Lorien


Jan 5, 5:21pm

Post #10 of 38 (3837 views)
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Sauron [In reply to] Can't Post

Agree that Sauron would have conquered Middle-earth were it not for the intervention of the Numenoreans. After all, he had let the greater portion of his power to pass into his Ring so as to control the Elves, and had significantly corrupted Men.

We are the fighting Uruk-Hai! We slew the great warrior! Well, yeah, first he killed a bunch of us and another whole lot of Mauhr's lads, and we had to shoot enough arrows into him to drop a Mmak. But we got him


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Jan 5, 6:23pm

Post #11 of 38 (3824 views)
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Sauron never touched the Three Rings of the Elves [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Agree that Sauron would have conquered Middle-earth were it not for the intervention of the Numenoreans. After all, he had let the greater portion of his power to pass into his Ring so as to control the Elves, and had significantly corrupted Men.


Sauron could not corrupt the Elves through the Three Rings, though with the Master Ring he could detect them if they were being worn and be aware of the thoughts and plans of the Ring-bearers.

"I may be on the side of the angels, but do not think for one second that I am one of them." - Sherlock


Attalus
Lorien


Jan 5, 6:53pm

Post #12 of 38 (3818 views)
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Yep [In reply to] Can't Post

Indeed, he never touched them, but that was his purpose in talking Celebrimbor into creating them, no? There must have been some effect, as Celebrimbor was "aware of him" when he (Sauron) put the One on, and overheard in some manner the famous stave, an enchantment, I have always thought, and not mere gloating, though Sauron was perfectly capable of gloating, as Pippin's testimony indicates. The fact that Celebrimbor hid them and did not use them indicates, to me, at least, the One's power. It was only after the One was lost that even the Elves ventured to don them and use them.

We are the fighting Uruk-Hai! We slew the great warrior! Well, yeah, first he killed a bunch of us and another whole lot of Mauhr's lads, and we had to shoot enough arrows into him to drop a Mmak. But we got him!


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Jan 5, 7:40pm

Post #13 of 38 (3807 views)
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Celembrimbor [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm not sure that Celembrimbor crafted the Three at Annatar's behest, though they were still made using Sauron's lore. That is what made them vulnerable to his perception and why they lost their powers when the One Ring was destroyed. The Rings of Power were able to corrupt Dwarves, but not in a manner that he anticipated. They mainly increased the greed of their Dwarven owners, but did not put them under Sauron's control as they did with Men.

"I may be on the side of the angels, but do not think for one second that I am one of them." - Sherlock


Attalus
Lorien


Jan 5, 7:50pm

Post #14 of 38 (3805 views)
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Annatar's Bequest [In reply to] Can't Post

I definitely doubt the "bequest" part, but I think that he influenced Celebrimbor to try for greater and greater power. I have thought that Sauron/Annatar realized at once what Celebrimbor had wrought, that they might give him power over the Elves, and and hurried back to Mount Doom to forge the One. A spur of the moment thing, as it were.

We are the fighting Uruk-Hai! We slew the great warrior! Well, yeah, first he killed a bunch of us and another whole lot of Mauhr's lads, and we had to shoot enough arrows into him to drop a Mmak. But we got him!


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Jan 5, 8:10pm

Post #15 of 38 (3796 views)
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A Concession. [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
And while [Sauron] wore the One Ring he could perceive all the things that were done by means of the lesser rings, and he could see and govern the very thoughts of those that wore them.


At the very least, there was a very real chance of the owner of one of the Three becoming ensnared by Sauron's will, just as Saruman was when he dared to use the Seeing-stone of Orthanc. However, I don't know that the bearers of the Elven Rings would have over time become as one of the Nazgl. Rather, their thoughts and goals would become twisted by Sauron just as possession of the Master Ring would have corrupted Galadriel.

"I may be on the side of the angels, but do not think for one second that I am one of them." - Sherlock


Attalus
Lorien


Jan 5, 8:19pm

Post #16 of 38 (3790 views)
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Elf-Nazgul? [In reply to] Can't Post

To be honest, it had never crossed my mind that Sauron could ensnare an Elf, especially one of the Noldor. Obviously, he could capture them as Melkor captured Maedhros and dangled him from Thangorodrim's walls, but not control their minds. I thought it was pretty clear that only "Mortal Men, proud and great" could be turned into Nazgul. No, I think that Celebrimbor was afraid of Sauron becoming aware of his thoughts and designs (though there might have been the fear that it could be Something Else). I mean, at that point, "Sauron, who knows what he can do?"

We are the fighting Uruk-Hai! We slew the great warrior! Well, yeah, first he killed a bunch of us and another whole lot of Mauhr's lads, and we had to shoot enough arrows into him to drop a Mmak. But we got him!


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Jan 5, 8:47pm

Post #17 of 38 (3781 views)
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Maybe, maybe not. [In reply to] Can't Post

That quote was taken from Tolkien's essay "The Rings of Power and the Third Age" in The Silmarillion. I expressed my own doubts over the possibility of an Elf as a Wraith, but "govern the very thoughts of those that wore them" is quoted directly from the Professor, for what it's worth.

"I may be on the side of the angels, but do not think for one second that I am one of them." - Sherlock

(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Jan 5, 8:50pm)


Attalus
Lorien


Jan 5, 9:03pm

Post #18 of 38 (3773 views)
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Fair enough! [In reply to] Can't Post

Well, that is Canon, like it or not, whatever one thinks of Christopher Tolkien's editing prowness. But, I would also point out, these things about the Elves were constantly shifting in JRRT's mind. As I understand it, he originally thought that Orcs were debased Elves that Melkor had captured during the first Age, and he was working on revising that part. But he didn't make Niggle an avatar for himself for nothing! Wink

We are the fighting Uruk-Hai! We slew the great warrior! Well, yeah, first he killed a bunch of us and another whole lot of Mauhr's lads, and we had to shoot enough arrows into him to drop a Mmak. But we got him!


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Jan 6, 1:13am

Post #19 of 38 (3753 views)
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Elves as Orcs [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Well, that is Canon, like it or not, whatever one thinks of Christopher Tolkien's editing prowness. But, I would also point out, these things about the Elves were constantly shifting in JRRT's mind. As I understand it, he originally thought that Orcs were debased Elves that Melkor had captured during the first Age, and he was working on revising that part. But he didn't make Niggle an avatar for himself for nothing! Wink


That's a hard one to revise without a rewrite of The Silmarillion since Orcs show up well before the awakening of Men. We can suppose that Morgoth experimented on captured Men as well and folded those results into his Orcs later.

"I may be on the side of the angels, but do not think for one second that I am one of them." - Sherlock


Attalus
Lorien


Jan 6, 1:53am

Post #20 of 38 (3749 views)
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I agree, but... [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
That's a hard one to revise without a rewrite of The Silmarillion since Orcs show up well before the awakening of Men. We can suppose that Morgoth experimented on captured Men as well and folded those results into his Orcs later.

Agree but there are those, and I am one, who really doubt that The Silmarillion would exist in its present form if JRRT had done his final, final revision himself instead of inconsiderately Wink dying and leaving it to CRT to do so. Some sites actually refer to it as "Sil77" to denote dubiety. I don't go that far, myself, but one does wonder. I agree that JRRT was approaching mixing Elvish and Mannish ancestry to the Orcs, but according to Humphrey Carpenter, he was even edging towards a purely mannish ancestry for them when he was "surpris'd by death." IIRC

We are the fighting Uruk-Hai! We slew the great warrior! Well, yeah, first he killed a bunch of us and another whole lot of Mauhr's lads, and we had to shoot enough arrows into him to drop a Mmak. But we got him!

(This post was edited by Attalus on Jan 6, 1:54am)


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Jan 6, 3:49am

Post #21 of 38 (3739 views)
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Maybe, but we will never know. [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
I agree that JRRT was approaching mixing Elvish and Mannish ancestry to the Orcs, but according to Humphrey Carpenter, he was even edging towards a purely mannish ancestry for them when he was "surpris'd by death." IIRC


And ultimately that might be what Tolkien would have done. And that would have been a major revision to his chronicle of the First Age.

"I may be on the side of the angels, but do not think for one second that I am one of them." - Sherlock

(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Jan 6, 3:50am)


Attalus
Lorien


Jan 6, 4:03am

Post #22 of 38 (3730 views)
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Yes... [In reply to] Can't Post

Alas, too true, I fear. Unsure

We are the fighting Uruk-Hai! We slew the great warrior! Well, yeah, first he killed a bunch of us and another whole lot of Mauhr's lads, and we had to shoot enough arrows into him to drop a Mmak. But we got him!


Elthir
Grey Havens

Jan 6, 5:26pm

Post #23 of 38 (3672 views)
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Lorinand [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Where were the Woodland and Lothlorien elves doing during that time? Were they just hiding?


Well, as you alread know, both realms were on the other side of a significant mountain range with respect to where the war in question took shape. And the Mirkwoodians even farther/further/ferther away of course.

Yet still -- according to at least one account -- Elrond and a remnant of Eregion would have been overwhelmed had not Durin sent out a force of Dwarves "and with them came Elves of Lorinand led by Amroth."

Sauron now wants Eriador, and (it's said, same text) "Lorinand could wait"

That noted, this is from the text Concerning Galadriel and Celeborn (Unfinished Tales) which I personally think contains a number of questionable or abandoned ideas (like Amroth here being Galadriel's son, for example)...

... so it's a bit of cherry-picking here, in a sense, on my part, but the account in Of The Rings Of Power And The Third Age has little enough to say about this war in detail...

... despite the long title Wink


Attalus
Lorien


Jan 6, 5:40pm

Post #24 of 38 (3669 views)
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Yes... [In reply to] Can't Post

This points out some of the difficulties with the text of both The Silmarillion and Unfinished Tales. . There is also the problem of Balrogs. How many? etc. ( I am NOT going into the wings question since I regard it as ultimately meaningless) Smile

We are the fighting Uruk-Hai! We slew the great warrior! Well, yeah, first he killed a bunch of us and another whole lot of Mauhr's lads, and we had to shoot enough arrows into him to drop a Mmak. But we got him!


Elthir
Grey Havens

Jan 6, 5:49pm

Post #25 of 38 (3664 views)
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a tale versus a scholarly approach [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Well, that is Canon, like it or not, whatever one thinks of Christopher Tolkien's editing prowness. But, I would also point out, these things about the Elves were constantly shifting in JRRT's mind...


For myself, I don't consider the 1977 Silmarillion canon, but it has nothing to do with Christopher Tolkien's editing prowess.

I think CJRT did a great job compiling the texts into a reader's version (I agree with him, however, about his treatment of the fall of Doriath* for example, and his regretted lack of giving some internal context or authorship regarding each account, for another instance), but I don't think his compilation was ever meant to be taken as canon...

... despite that, and granted, had no posthumously published materials (especially The History of Middle-earth series), ever been published after 1977, the constructed Silmarillion would have "had" to be canon, at least by default as far as discussions go, about (a lot of) the Elder Days. Obviously perhaps, as in such a case we readers wouldn't have anything else as a "common read" to discuss or think about.

I keep in mind too, that a one volume "reader's version" (as I call it) was not the way CJRT wanted to go in the first place, as he's noted, including the influence of Guy Kay in this matter.

_____

*and that said, it's not like my initial read of the fall of Doriath felt wrong, unTolkienly, in any case.


(This post was edited by Elthir on Jan 6, 5:58pm)

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