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Ataahua
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Dec 15 2017, 12:14am
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Ashley Judd and Mira Sorvino were considered for the LOTR movies.
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After all these years we have fresh casting news about LOTR! The circumstances are sad (Peter says he was required to take them off the list of possible actors by Harvey Weinstein ... and it now looks like it was payback on Weinstein's part), but it's intriguing to consider who they might have played.
Which roles do you think they were most likely considered for: Arwen, Galadriel or Eowyn?
https://www.stuff.co.nz/...-on-harvey-weinstein
Celebrimbor: "Pretty rings..."
Dwarves: "Pretty rings..."
Men: "Pretty rings..."
Sauron: "Mine's better."
"Ah, how ironic, the addictive qualities of Sauron’s master weapon led to its own destruction. Which just goes to show, kids - if you want two small and noble souls to succeed on a mission of dire importance... send an evil-minded beggar with them too." - Gandalf's Diaries, final par, by Ufthak.
Ataahua's stories
(This post was edited by Ataahua on Dec 15 2017, 12:14am)
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Silverlode
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Dec 15 2017, 2:00am
Post #3 of 33
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reporters trying to scrape up more Weinstein news went after Peter hoping for something to use. All Peter had to say is that he didn't like the Weinsteins and that he was told those two actresses were difficult to work with. That wouldn't have been news before the last few months. It sounds like Peter had very little contact with Harvey and no direct knowledge that would have merited his speaking out prior to the allegations being made public. Hindsight is everything here.
Silverlode
Roads go ever ever on
Under cloud and under star
Yet feet that wandering have gone
Turn at last to home afar.
Eyes that fire and sword have seen
And horror in the halls of stone
Look at last on meadows green
And trees and hills they long have known.
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squire
Half-elven
Dec 15 2017, 2:42am
Post #4 of 33
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But I wonder how much Jackson, or any major artist in commercial film, could really say they knew nothing about Weinstein's predations in the years between the casting of the LotR movies, and now?
When I worked in the opera business in New York in the 1980s, I heard directly from my employers that James Levine was a sexual predator on young men. But nothing could be done. He was the single most important guy in the American opera world. Now he's been suspended by his employer, the Metropolitan Opera, in the current climate of no toleration. He should have been suspended a decade or two ago - his employers knew what everyone knew, even me, a minor subcontractor, thirty years ago.
I do wonder if Jackson really had "no direct knowledge" that "would have merited his speaking out" five, ten, or twenty years ago. "Direct knowledge" is the key term, isn't it? Or perhaps, "merited". But just as key is Weinstein's undoubted dominance of his industry's casting and producing decisions in those years.
To be clear: I don't condemn Jackson for saying nothing, per se. No one said anything, per se, because it wouldn't go anywhere except to the detriment of ones own career - until the tables rather miraculously turned, this year. But pardon me if I am unimpressed by retrospective revelations that Weinstein rubbed anyone the wrong way, or seemed unsavory to decent people in the film industry.
squire online:
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Dr. Squire introduces the J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia: A Reader's Diary
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Silverlode
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Dec 15 2017, 6:14am
Post #5 of 33
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Peter's description is "Mafia boss". From that and the threat to fire Peter if he didn't agree to his one-movie deal, it's clear he experienced the bullying side of Weinstein. Are bullying business tactics something that merits speaking out? I'm not sure, unless there were illegal contract shenanigans, and lawsuits would be the usual recourse in such cases. It's unclear how much he knew or saw of Weinstein's sexual proclivities, other than that he was told what now seem clearly to be lies about two actresses. Do we assume that he knew he was lied to about the actresses, or, worse, had knowledge of assaults? If so, that would have been something that merited speaking. However, hearsay isn't considered admissible in court, and I think we would not have had the seachange in culture regarding this without the sort of prosecutable allegations which require direct knowledge. This has always been a major part of the difficulty in calling such predators to account. A lot of people "knowing" was insufficient to change anything for decades. It's only now, that the tide is flowing the other way, and with the aid of social media, that things that everyone knew are weighing in the scales.
Silverlode
Roads go ever ever on
Under cloud and under star
Yet feet that wandering have gone
Turn at last to home afar.
Eyes that fire and sword have seen
And horror in the halls of stone
Look at last on meadows green
And trees and hills they long have known.
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Omnigeek
Lorien
Dec 15 2017, 8:19am
Post #6 of 33
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I think I would have liked to see Mira Sorvino compete for Galadriel or Eowyn but I’m not sure she would have been any better than Cate Blanchett or Miranda Otto although I never thought Cate had the beauty ascribed to Galadriel. Both Mira and Ashley are accomplished actresses but so are Cate and Miranda and I tire of American “name” actors in major roles just because of the names. Liv Tyler and Miranda Otto were “fresh” for their roles and did well in them; Ashley would probably have given Arwen more of an aged/experienced feel which would have been truer to the character but perhaps not have worked as well in the movie.
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N.E. Brigand
Half-elven
Dec 15 2017, 5:41pm
Post #7 of 33
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Let's hope Jackson privately warned others.
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At the time the casting decisions were made, Jackson was only a minor filmmaker with a few indie credits to his name--and presumably he didn't know why Weinstein told him not to hire Judd or Sorvino. He would have had neither the power nor the proof to take on Weinstein. And if, like you regarding Levine, Jackson only heard secondhand reports about Weinstein's behavior, then even when he had the power, post-LOTR, he probably couldn't go public without proof. So the best that he could have done is to advise other to stay away from Weinstein; I hope he did.
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N.E. Brigand
Half-elven
Dec 15 2017, 5:59pm
Post #8 of 33
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Who's that excellent (Italian?) Tolkien illustrator whose Galadriel looks a bit like Renee Zellweger? I think she also looks a bit like Mira Sorvino. Both of them are about the same age as Cate Blanchett, not to mention Ashley Judd and Miranda Otto (Liv Tyler is about ten years younger).
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Ataahua
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Dec 15 2017, 6:51pm
Post #10 of 33
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My first thought was Gerry Halliwell. /
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Celebrimbor: "Pretty rings..."
Dwarves: "Pretty rings..."
Men: "Pretty rings..."
Sauron: "Mine's better."
"Ah, how ironic, the addictive qualities of Sauron’s master weapon led to its own destruction. Which just goes to show, kids - if you want two small and noble souls to succeed on a mission of dire importance... send an evil-minded beggar with them too." - Gandalf's Diaries, final par, by Ufthak.
Ataahua's stories
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N.E. Brigand
Half-elven
Dec 15 2017, 6:54pm
Post #11 of 33
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Yes! That's the one. Thanks. //
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N.E. Brigand
Half-elven
Dec 15 2017, 8:21pm
Post #12 of 33
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Does this news taint Jackson's LOTR for anyone?
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And in general, how should the recent revelations about the vile behavior of certain entertainers affect our perceptions of their work?
For instance, I have thoroughly enjoyed many of Kevin Spacey's performances. Can I watch a movie featuring him again without feeling a bit disgusted?
Similarly, during the production of any film, let alone one as complicated as The Lord of the Rings, there are myriad factors at play, with many turns along the way from inception to completion, any of which, had they gone another direction, might have resulted in a different film. Fans of Jackson's trilogy tend to view most of those twists of fate as serendipitous.
Will the knowledge that Jackson was barred from casting two actresses whose work he admired because they had rejected a producer's sexual advances color our perception of the film now?
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Darkstone
Immortal
Dec 15 2017, 9:56pm
Post #13 of 33
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Jackson merely trusted a powerful Hollywood producer. A very common mistake.
I do thank goodness that after the production went to New Line the Weinstein Brothers only association with the LOTR films was “Executive Producer” credit and 5% of the profits.
As for the artist sullying the art, I can watch classical Greek plays, listen to Wagnerian opera, and read "Alice in Wonderland" without being bothered by their associations with pederasty, antisemitism, and child pornography.
Then again, I do feel a sense of disgust and revulsion when I watch alleged sexual predators on screen like Bill Cosby and Kevin Spacy. (I have all of Bill Cosby's comedy albums. Now I can't listen to them.) I also feel distressed watching the films of the young Judy Garland as I'm now aware of all the physical, mental, and alleged sexual abuse she suffered while making those films.
And finally, I am often taken by surprise by old movies of the 1930s and 1940s when they portray as normal and even humorous cultural values we would regard today as cruel, misogynistic, racist, and intolerant.
As L. P. Hartley said, 'The past is a different country: They do things differently there.'
Especially comedy:
…Odysseus lashed out with the sceptre,
hitting Thersites hard across his back and shoulders.
He doubled up in pain, shedding many tears.
In the middle of Thersites’ back sprang up
bloody welts beneath the golden sceptre.
He sat down, afraid and hurt, peering around,
like an idiot, and rubbing away his tears.
The soldiers, though discontent, laughed uproariously,
-The Illiad
******************************************
The audacious proposal stirred his heart. And the stirring became a song, and it mingled with the songs of Gil-galad and Celebrian, and with those of Feanor and Fingon. The song-weaving created a larger song, and then another, until suddenly it was as if a long forgotten memory woke and for one breathtaking moment the Music of the Ainur revealed itself in all glory. He opened his lips to sing and share this song. Then he realized that the others would not understand. Not even Mithrandir given his current state of mind. So he smiled and simply said "A diversion.”
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Eowyn of Penns Woods
Valinor
Dec 15 2017, 11:25pm
Post #14 of 33
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Still looks like Kate Moss to me. //
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**********************************
NABOUF
Not a TORns*b!
Certified Curmudgeon
Knitting Knerd
NARF: NWtS Chapter Member since June 17,2011
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squire
Half-elven
Dec 16 2017, 1:03am
Post #15 of 33
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Generally, the lives of most artists resemble a sausage factory.
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Artists are by definition unique, self-centered people. Very few of them are or were 'nice' by some bourgeois or liberal standard.
Then, as Darkstone noted, everyone who ever lived before today had pretty terrible attitudes towards social relations by modern liberal standards. Heck, even we as a society have pretty terrible attitudes by that high and elite standard. Yet we still try to do our best today; and we still try to honor the past, and to appreciate the art and literature and other achievements of earlier peoples. One reason to do so is the realization, that usually comes when we reach middle age, that we will likely be regarded as practically criminal in our everyday behavior and assumptions by future generations! 'Judge not, lest ye be judged.'
I would say that Jackson's LotR films are very, very low on any list of politically incorrect works, on the accusation of accepting Weinstein's blacklisting of two potential actresses.
squire online:
RR Discussions: The Valaquenta, A Shortcut to Mushrooms, and Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit
Lights! Action! Discuss on the Movie board!: 'A Journey in the Dark'. and 'Designing The Two Towers'.
Archive: All the TORn Reading Room Book Discussions (including the 1st BotR Discussion!) and Footerama: "Tolkien would have LOVED it!"
Dr. Squire introduces the J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia: A Reader's Diary
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L. Ron Halfelven
Grey Havens
Dec 16 2017, 3:53am
Post #16 of 33
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No, I just think they should have cast Weinstein as Wormtongue./
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And Rose drew him in, and set him on the harpsichord bench, and put little Wilhelm Friedemann upon his lap.
He began composing a fugue. 'Well, I'm Bach,' he said.
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N.E. Brigand
Half-elven
Dec 16 2017, 5:20pm
Post #17 of 33
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This news puts another puncture in one myth.
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Sorvino was an Oscar-winner by that point, and Judd was the star of a film that earned $116 million domestically, which was an impressive number at that time. And Weinstein still was able to stall their careers with moves like this. So much for the notion that talent and hard work can win past any obstacle, or that the successful are in some way more deserving than the unsuccessful.
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N.E. Brigand
Half-elven
Dec 16 2017, 5:29pm
Post #18 of 33
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What prior work by Judd, Sorvino, Blanchett, Tyler, or Otto was most promising?
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I mean: in which of their films prior to LOTR did their performances most suggest that they might be the right choice for a role in that film?
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glor
Rohan
Dec 16 2017, 10:03pm
Post #19 of 33
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Agree a common mistake, but PJ is doing the honorable thing now, he knows the truth.
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The BBC report stated that PJ had said, Weinstein had told Jackson Sorvino and Judd were a nightmare to work with and should be avoided at all costs rather than, being told not to hire them. As a result, when it came to casting for New Line, PJ rejected them, blacklisted them himself.
I understand that. It's pretty clear from the appendices that, Jackson was very much aware that this was a very long shoot that needed an amiable cast
Has anyone noticed even now the spin Weinstein's PR machine is putting on this? Stating that the Weinstein's didn't blacklist them for LOTR, twisting PJ statement!
I am betting that PJ wasn't alone in being influenced by Weinstein's rumour machine and slur campaigns upon those he felt did not comply.
PJ as a director is alone though, so far, in speaking out about what he was told and how that influenced his decisions.
Judd and Sorvino have openly thanked PJ on Twitter and PJ has proved/substantiated the claims that Weinstein slandered and ruined careers if his actresses didn't comply with his sexual demands or threatened to go public.
For that PJ should be admired and has acted honourably. Our ire should be reserved for the directors and producers who have stayed silent since these accusations surfaced
No mascara can survive BOTFA
(This post was edited by glor on Dec 16 2017, 10:04pm)
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N.E. Brigand
Half-elven
Dec 16 2017, 10:23pm
Post #20 of 33
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"I am betting that PJ wasn't alone in being influenced..."
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Yeah, Terry Zwigoff has now reported that every time he mentioned to the Weinsteins he was considering Mira Sorvino for Bad Santa, they hung up the phone.
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Plurmo
Rohan
Dec 16 2017, 10:36pm
Post #21 of 33
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Judd and Sorvino would fit better in the cast of PJ's Hobbit.
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Ashley Judd as an even more unhinged Radagast, with a strange pink hat and a pair of dodo birds nesting under it, so she could talk to someone who could relate to her ideas.
Mira Sorvino as Azog. An artificially created part, there for the sake of being there. Unmemorability is her greatest talent. Other than head trauma and perhaps myself, there are few things that cause faster amnesia than Sorvino.
Thanks, Harvey, you saved us, or me at least, from some great disappointment.
And we boys know how hard your life must have been. With all those chaste and prude holywood women around you, who never ever absolutely craved for the attention of powerful moguls or used their looks and bodies to their advantage. No, if the reports are true, you had less chance in scoring a single starlet than Sauron had of finding his precious Ring.
Poor Harvey, never a man has received so many no's and still kept faith. Treading along, the only wicked soul in a sea holywoodian purity.
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Starling
Half-elven
Dec 17 2017, 7:37pm
Post #22 of 33
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to the spin put on his words, with a clear statement about what he and Fran remember from that time.
It is support and validation for these two women, who always knew their careers had been derailed.
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Dec 17 2017, 7:48pm
Post #24 of 33
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It might be worth remembering that neither Ashley Judd nor Mira Sorvino were, as far as we know, being considered for roles once The Lord of the Rings was taken to New Line. This was when only a single movie was being pitched at Miramax.
"I may be on the side of the angels, but do not think for one second that I am one of them." - Sherlock
(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Dec 17 2017, 7:48pm)
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Bestica
Bree
Dec 17 2017, 8:00pm
Post #25 of 33
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I'm with you here. Just as Levine's (and even Kevin Spacey's) predilections were essentially common knowledge, I have a hard time believing that there weren't at least rumors flying about Weinstein for decades. Abuse that egregious can only succeed if it's taking place in an environment that turns a blind eye. Jackson may have heard something of this, but I think he made the best move he could have at the time- moving to a different studio and never working with the Weinsteins again.
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