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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Reading Room:
Could a Nazgul or a Orc become Sauron's successor?
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Dec 17 2017, 9:41pm

Post #26 of 32 (1008 views)
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Ithryn Luin [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
And so far I can't recall/find/trip over anything later in which Tolkien refers to them as blue.


I refer you to J.R.R. Tolkien's essay "The Istari", published in Unfinished Tales:


Quote
Of this order the number is unknown; but of those that came to the North of Middle-earth, where there was much hope...the chiefs were five. The first to come was one of noble mien and bearing, with raven hair, and a fair voice, and he was clad in white great skill he had in works of hand, and he was regarded by well-nigh all, even by the Eldar, as the head of the Order. Others there were also: two clad in sea-blue, and one in earthen brown; and last came one who seemed the least, less tall than the others, and in looks more aged, grey-haired and grey-clad, and leaning on a staff.


And later:


Quote
Of the Blue little was known in the West, and they had no names save Ithryn Luin 'the Blue Wizards'; for they passed into the East with Curunír, but they never returned, and whether they remained in the East, pursuing there the purposes for which they were sent; or perished; or as some hold were ensnared by Sauron and became his servants, is not now known.


Christopher Tolkien dates the essay to 1954, so he seems to have had second thoughts about their color(s) by the time of the later letter.

"I may be on the side of the angels, but do not think for one second that I am one of them." - Sherlock

(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Dec 17 2017, 9:47pm)


Elthir
Grey Havens

Dec 17 2017, 11:09pm

Post #27 of 32 (995 views)
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Yes but I meant... [In reply to] Can't Post

... I can't recall/find/trip over anything *later* than the 1958 letter (that I had just quoted) in which the formerly "blue" wizards become colourless.

In anything later than the letter, again so far that I am aware of, Tolkien refers to them as the "other" two, or at least doesn't mention any colours.

Granted, there isn't a stack of wizard notes later than 1958, but...

Smile


Elthir
Grey Havens

Dec 17 2017, 11:16pm

Post #28 of 32 (995 views)
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right... [In reply to] Can't Post

... but it's interesting to me that the notion of the other two wizards "failing" seems well known too, Tolkien fearing that they possibly were beginners of secret cults and 'magic' traditions...

... an idea hailing from the same "colourless, un-blued" letter [211], anyway.

Oh well... for now I'll keep up my mad crusade in any case Wink


InTheChair
Lorien

Dec 21 2017, 10:10pm

Post #29 of 32 (940 views)
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Guessing that Umbar or somewhere east would be the strongest foothold of evil after the fall of Mordor. [In reply to] Can't Post

Just to weigh in on a small misunderstanding. The Mouth of Sauron is not described as disfigured, but rather as a normal man. Only his horse is given especially horrible features.

He himself wears a lofty helm, and black robes. No armour is mentioned but it is very possible that he wore one under that black robe.

His fate is not mentioned so if you're looking for a successor to Sauron he is still possible, though I think he would have kept away from Gondor and King Elassar after the downfall of Barad-Dűr.


Gothmog_Balrog
Registered User


Jan 30, 1:13am

Post #30 of 32 (672 views)
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Sauron's Successor [In reply to] Can't Post

It is possible that, perhaps, a high ranking Uruk-Hai or other could've rallied forces, but the fact still stands that Sauron's army took a big hit after the destruction of the ring, and likely would not have the strength to gain power again.


Gothmog_Balrog
Registered User


Jan 30, 1:36am

Post #31 of 32 (664 views)
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Sauron's Successor [In reply to] Can't Post

On top of this, during Eldarion's rule, nearly all Orcs had been vanquished, and though there were a few "orc gangs" they were human run. Additionally, humans and dwarves were thriving and repopulating during the fourth age, so most orc uprisings would likely be slaughtered pretty quickly.


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Jan 30, 3:20am

Post #32 of 32 (658 views)
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After Sauron [In reply to] Can't Post

That doesn't preclude that some Man high in Sauron's service couldn't have rallied Morgoth cults under him and gathered a force in Khand or farther East. Then he might have found more allies in the South.

"I may be on the side of the angels, but do not think for one second that I am one of them." - Sherlock

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