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Could a Nazgul or a Orc become Sauron's successor?
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Victariongreyjoy
Rivendell


Dec 14 2017, 10:44pm

Post #1 of 32 (3219 views)
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Could a Nazgul or a Orc become Sauron's successor? Can't Post

Let's say one Nazgul survived after Sauron's demise in Return of The King. Could he and perhaps a Azog strong leader orc become the new Dark Lords? Perhaps moving to a new location, for example Angmar or Gundabad?


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Dec 14 2017, 10:53pm

Post #2 of 32 (3171 views)
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Not a Ringwraith. [In reply to] Can't Post

None of the Nazgûl could have survived the destruction of the One Ring, so they are automatically out of the running. A high-ranking Uruk-hai might conceivably have been able to try to reorganize Sauron's remaining forces, though I suspect that a Mannish servant (such as a Black Númenórean like the Mouth of Sauron or an Easterling king) might have stood a better chance of success.

"I may be on the side of the angels, but do not think for one second that I am one of them." - Sherlock


Victariongreyjoy
Rivendell


Dec 15 2017, 2:34am

Post #3 of 32 (3151 views)
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Easterling warchief [In reply to] Can't Post

A easterling king or warchief becomes Sauron's successor would be very interesting. I wished Tolkien would have written Middle Earth being under a new threat under King Aragorn, from the rise of a new evil Easterling faction.
This is just fan fiction, but this new dark lord would manage to rally the leftovers of Mordor's orcs and trolls under his command. Maybe he worshipped Sauron and Morgoth, and began with dark magic. Making him disfigured like the Mouth of Sauron. Black Easterling faction wearing the same armour, but only in black clothing and silver colored helmet and shield. So that they look more menacing.

Something similar to this
http://media.moddb.com/...1/22/21916/black.jpg


(This post was edited by Victariongreyjoy on Dec 15 2017, 2:35am)


squire
Half-elven


Dec 15 2017, 2:52am

Post #4 of 32 (3146 views)
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Tolkien called that "a thriller - not worth doing". [In reply to] Can't Post

If you can, check out Tolkien's story "A New Shadow" in History of Middle-earth, vol. XII. A restored Gondor, under Aragorn's beneficent rule, is basically, bored with goodness, and is drawn to a new cult of darkness based on memories of Sauron and Morgul. He wrote several dozen pages and abandoned it, recognizing that it recreated the form, but not the spirit, of The Lord of the Rings.

In other words, although Tolkien wrote LotR as a 'sequel' to The Hobbit, the only reason it worked for him was that it grew into something infinitely larger. When he tried to write a sequel to LotR, which was about (pardon) "Life, the Universe, and Everything", he found that the sequel was simply "a thriller ... not worth doing." You can't write a sequel to an Epic!



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noWizardme
Valinor


Dec 15 2017, 2:42pm

Post #5 of 32 (3125 views)
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Why not write the fan fiction? [In reply to] Can't Post

Tolkien has Gandalf say (in The Last Debate) that the eventual return of evil is inevitable. So that leaves the field open to anyone who wants to imagine how that comes about. There is arguably a limitation that magic is an innate ability in Middle-earth, so not just anyone can learn to do it. But you can probably find some further balrog or renegade Blue Wizard, something like that, if you poke around to the South and East of what is known. Alternatively, I think that technology and magic are pretty much interchangeable for plot purposes in speculative fiction, And both are 'machines' in Tolkien's thought about the moral hazards of getting too much of what you want too easily, and going against 'what is meant to happen'.

Is such a story fun to think about, write or read? I suppose it depends entirely upon what one likes - if the main attraction is battles, then of course the loser can always get up again for Round 2, and it doesn't matter if Round 2 is pretty much like Round 1 (in fact that might be an attraction). It might be harder to come up with something new and interesting by way of themes around the battles in Round
2, but again, if the story is all about the battles, then trying to come up with new themes about the interaction of good and evil might be unnecessary - obviously they interact by having battles, and what more needs to be said?

I suspect that was Tolkien's 'mere thriller' objection - if he was going to write more, he was interested in 'fantasy with military elements', rather than 'military fantasy'. But look up 'military fantasy' on Google and it's easy to get a long reading list. So a lot of people must like it.

I would be amazed if there wasn't already fan fiction along the lines you suggest - my impression from earlier discussions like this is that a huge amount of fan fiction has been written and so it's very difficult to find an original fan fiction angle (if that isn't a bit of an oxymoron, fan fiction by definition not being entirely original). Maybe someone more knowledgeable that me could make recommendations.

And even if it's all been done many times, if you'd enjoy writing some more then I recommend going ahead. If you have fun, then you've won!

~~~~~~
Where's that old read-through discussion?
A wonderful list of links to previous chapters in the 2014-2016 LOTR read-through (and to previous read-throughs) is curated by our very own 'squire' here http://users.bestweb.net/...-SixthDiscussion.htm


CuriousG
Half-elven


Dec 15 2017, 3:43pm

Post #6 of 32 (3116 views)
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Evil always seems to come back [In reply to] Can't Post

That appears to be Tolkien's concept of the cycle of history.
  • FIRST AGE
  • The Valar create Arda and give it two lamps, and all is well. Melkor destroys them.
  • The Valar retreat to Aman, create a new bliss, and then let Melkor out of jail, and he destroys that bliss.
  • The Noldor besiege Melkor for centuries and hold the upper hand, making Beleriand a happy place for Elves, Dwarves, and Men, then Melkor breaks the siege and shatters the happiness.
  • SECOND AGE
  • Melkor is defeated, and Gil-Galad happily rules Eriador while Numenor is young and prosperous. Then Sauron takes Melkor's place and ruins the peace, rising up again after each defeat.
  • THIRD AGE
  • Sauron takes shape in Dol Guldur, gets driven out, comes back for more.
  • Gondor reaches an imperial zenith, then slowly gets chipped away by evil.
In the Fourth Age, it's not hard to imagine some holdover becoming the new Big Bad Guy/Girl, just as Sauron, Shelob, and the Balrog were holdovers from the First Age. I don't think the Mouth of Sauron was unique as a servant of Sauron's; there had to be other Black Numenoreans like him who rose in the ranks and learned black magic from Sauron who could be come the new Dark Lord. Or maybe a Sauron-worshipper in the East or South, or even the West, a renegade the way Saruman was. There are plenty of candidates.


Laineth
Lorien

Dec 15 2017, 5:31pm

Post #7 of 32 (3105 views)
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Yes [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
In the Fourth Age, it's not hard to imagine some holdover becoming the new Big Bad Guy/Girl, just as Sauron, Shelob, and the Balrog were holdovers from the First Age. I don't think the Mouth of Sauron was unique as a servant of Sauron's; there had to be other Black Numenoreans like him who rose in the ranks and learned black magic from Sauron who could be come the new Dark Lord. Or maybe a Sauron-worshipper in the East or South, or even the West, a renegade the way Saruman was. There are plenty of candidates.


Unrelated to the unfinished sequel, Tolkien also said in Appendix A:


Quote
In Éomer's day in the Mark men had peace who wished for it, and the people increased both in the dales and the plains, and their horses multiplied. In Gondor the King Elessar now ruled, and in Arnor also. In all the lands of those realms of old he was king, save in Rohan only; for he renewed to Éomer the gift of Cirion, and Éomer took again the Oath of Eorl. Often he fulfilled it. For though Sauron had passed, the hatreds and evils that he bred had not died, and the King of the West had many enemies to subdue before the White Tree could grow in peace. And wherever King Elessar went with war King Éomer went with him; and beyond the Sea of Rhûn and on the far fields of the South the thunder of the cavalry of the Mark was heard, and the White Horse upon Green flew in many winds until Éomer grew old.


So while there was no new Big Bad, the first 50 years of the Fourth Age had several wars. The New Shadow was supposed to take place in FoA 220: http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/The_New_Shadow


Ataahua
Superuser / Moderator


Dec 15 2017, 7:24pm

Post #8 of 32 (3097 views)
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Imagine if this is what became of the Blue Wizards. [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Or maybe a Sauron-worshipper in the East or South


What if they fell just as Saruman did and returned to fill the vaccuum of power?

Celebrimbor: "Pretty rings..."
Dwarves: "Pretty rings..."
Men: "Pretty rings..."
Sauron: "Mine's better."

"Ah, how ironic, the addictive qualities of Sauron’s master weapon led to its own destruction. Which just goes to show, kids - if you want two small and noble souls to succeed on a mission of dire importance... send an evil-minded beggar with them too." - Gandalf's Diaries, final par, by Ufthak.


Ataahua's stories


squire
Half-elven


Dec 15 2017, 7:40pm

Post #9 of 32 (3094 views)
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Well, it did. But then they got better. [In reply to] Can't Post

What I mean is that Tolkien apparently imagined the Blue Wizards had fallen from their mission, and having gone East were corrupted into magicians of an evil bent. That was in the late 1950s, in Tolkien's notes.

But then he reconsidered this story and changed it, in the late 1960s or early 1970s. Suddenly the Blue Wizards had gone East and led the Resistance to Sauron, preventing him from building up his power base as much as he might have otherwise. Thus the two mysterious wizzes helped save the West from behind enemy lines, as it were. (They also acquired new names!)

If one were to create fan fiction about a New Dark Power in the Fourth Age, one could of course go against Tolkien's designs, and still make the Blue Wizards (both or just one or whatever) the chief Baddies, as they had "originally" been in Tolkien's head. Because fan fiction, obviously. It depends on the writer's own standards for how much Tolkien's own ideas, beliefs, standards, stylistic quirks, etc. should retain precedence in stories written by another.



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Voronwë_the_Faithful
Valinor

Dec 15 2017, 10:40pm

Post #10 of 32 (3081 views)
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I can think of one exception that proves this rule [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
You can't write a sequel to an Epic!


The [Odyssey/i] certainly can be considered a sequel to The Iliad, no? Both pretty successful (and enduring!) epics!

'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'

The Hall of Fire


Morthoron
Gondor


Dec 16 2017, 12:27am

Post #11 of 32 (3065 views)
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Funny you should mention it.... [In reply to] Can't Post

I wrote a speculative fiction novel (a fancy way of saying a damn long fan-fic) over 10 years ago with the Mouth of Sauron as the new Dark Lord. It garnered some awards via the now defunct MEFA (Middle-earth Fan-fiction Awards), so evidently quite a few readers enjoyed it.

The reason to cast the Mouth of Sauron? Simple. Nowhere in RotK does it state MoS ever died in the destruction of Barad-dur. Plus, he was, as Tolkien stated, a Black Numenorean, which I always found intriguing, given that the race was allegedly extinct. How old was he? What was his longevity? Like I said, interesting to ponder.

https://www.fanfiction.net/...-of-a-Dark-Continent

Please visit my blog...The Dark Elf File...a slighty skewed journal of music and literary comment, fan-fiction and interminable essays.



(This post was edited by Morthoron on Dec 16 2017, 12:31am)


squire
Half-elven


Dec 16 2017, 12:55am

Post #12 of 32 (3063 views)
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Maybe it was a prequel. [In reply to] Can't Post

Suppose the Odyssey was 'written' - 'sung' - 'assembled' - 'circulated' - 'written down' - first, before the Iliad (whose events precede the Odyssey's). Would that make it a prequel, in Hollywood's mind?

We don't really know enough about the Homeric tradition to talk about one of the two great epics coming "before" or "after" the other. We don't even know if Homer existed. As one scholar is said to have spent his career trying to prove, it's possible the Iliad was written by another poet ... of the same name.



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Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Dec 16 2017, 1:56am

Post #13 of 32 (3052 views)
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Black Númenóreans [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
The reason to cast the Mouth of Sauron? Simple. Nowhere in RotK does it state MoS ever died in the destruction of Barad-dur. Plus, he was, as Tolkien stated, a Black Numenorean, which I always found intriguing, given that the race was allegedly extinct. How old was he? What was his longevity? Like I said, interesting to ponder.


I'm not sure why or how you consider the Black Númenóreans a distinct race. They were more of a faction of the Númenóreans; no different physically from the Men of Gondor or Arnor until their blood was thinned by intermarrying with the peoples of the South. Nor am I aware of any claim that they became extinct by the later years of the Third Age. The existence of the Mouth of Sauron is, in fact, proof that this was not the case.

"I may be on the side of the angels, but do not think for one second that I am one of them." - Sherlock


Victariongreyjoy
Rivendell


Dec 16 2017, 2:51am

Post #14 of 32 (3043 views)
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Mouth of Sauron [In reply to] Can't Post

Did he perished after the war of the ring? (Book)


Victariongreyjoy
Rivendell


Dec 16 2017, 3:04am

Post #15 of 32 (3041 views)
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Expanding this on a live adaptation? [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
In Éomer's day in the Mark men had peace who wished for it, and the people increased both in the dales and the plains, and their horses multiplied. In Gondor the King Elessar now ruled, and in Arnor also. In all the lands of those realms of old he was king, save in Rohan only; for he renewed to Éomer the gift of Cirion, and Éomer took again the Oath of Eorl. Often he fulfilled it. For though Sauron had passed, the hatreds and evils that he bred had not died, and the King of the West had many enemies to subdue before the White Tree could grow in peace. And wherever King Elessar went with war King Éomer went with him; and beyond the Sea of Rhûn and on the far fields of the South the thunder of the cavalry of the Mark was heard, and the White Horse upon Green flew in many winds until Éomer grew old.


Could this be expanded or taking liberty on a hypothetical movie were Aragorn and Eomer fought against a black numenorean easterling and his army? Or will this be taking to much libery on Tolkien's work?


(This post was edited by Victariongreyjoy on Dec 16 2017, 3:13am)


Morthoron
Gondor


Dec 16 2017, 3:50am

Post #16 of 32 (3038 views)
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In reply... [In reply to] Can't Post

I would consider after several thousand years through the 2nd Age, the Black Númenóreans would be distinct from the Dúnedain of Gondor. Tolkien gives the distinct impression Black Númenóreans were a waning stock even at the beginning of the 3rd Age. We, of course, hear of Queen Beruthiel (whom Tolkien referred to as a Black Númenórean) and her loveless marriage to King Falastur. And after Hyarmendacil conquered Harad in T.A. 1050, Tolkien mentions Black Númenóreans no more -- that is until the Mouth of Sauron appears during the War of the Ring.

That's almost 2000 years without a mention by Tolkien, and then suddenly MoS is a Black Númenórean? Don't you find that even a bit odd? It certainly gives MoS a gravity that would not be apparent if, for instance, Tolkien referred to him as a Haradrim or Umbarian. Even the utterance of the word "Númenórean" at such a late date seems strange, considering the Men of Gondor or Arnor had not referred to themselves as Númenóreans for several millenia.

In any case, if as Tolkien implies the Black Númenórean were intermarrying and losing their racial identity 3000 years previous, how then do you explain MoS as the sole Black Númenórean mentioned during the War of the Ring? Tolkien mentioned any number of racial groups: Variags, Haradrim, Corsairs, men of Khand, Wainriders, Balchoth, Easterlings, etc. throughout the last part of the 3rd Age, but not a single mention of such an important adversary to the Dúnedain kingdoms as the Black Númenóreans.

And the Mouth of Sauron himself is rather enigmatic, isn't he? We do not know exactly how old he is when he appears at the Black Gates. Depending on how you take Tolkien's depiction of MoS that "he entered the service of the Dark Tower when it first rose again", one could ascertain he would have served Sauron nearly 70 years (68 to be exact) at that point. If he were 20 years old at the point he joined Sauron's service, that would make him nearly 90.

Based on Tolkien's description of MoS astride his black steed, we don't get the impression of a 90 year old, do we? And it is equally interesting that he shares Aragorn's longevity and youthful appearance, even though Black Númenóreans allegedly were waning thousands of years previous. Théoden at age 71 and even Denethor at 89 were depicted by Tolkien as older in appearance.

But the phrase "he entered the service of the Dark Tower when it first rose again" could just as easily be determined to be when Sauron returned to Mordor after the destruction of Númenór, in which case MoS would be 3000 years old (far-fetched, I know, considering the Mouth had no Ring like the Nazgûl, and particularly since in drafts of The Return of the King, he is a renegade Man of Gondor). But it must take quite a long time for a person to forget his own name and be forgotten in any tale, and Tolkien certainly made him more formidable as a Black Númenórean rather than as a rebel Gondorion.

I grant you, the dearth of information regarding Black Númenóreans in the past 2000 years prior to the coming of the Mouth of Sauron may be simply an authorial omission by Tolkien, but the reference at such a late date is, as I've stated previously, decidedly odd, as is Tolkien's arcane references to the Mouth learning the black arts under the tutelage of Sauron himself, and a living man being Lieutenant of Barad-dûr, more terrible than any orc. That, and there is no mention of his fate after his master falls. Not having a Ring of Power, he need not have died.

Now, that's a character to build on. Wink

Please visit my blog...The Dark Elf File...a slighty skewed journal of music and literary comment, fan-fiction and interminable essays.



Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Dec 16 2017, 3:55am

Post #17 of 32 (3032 views)
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Re: Mouth of Sauron [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Did he perished after the war of the ring? (Book)


Tolkien didn't say. The Mouth of Sauron might have survived the fall of Sauron and Barad-dûr.

"I may be on the side of the angels, but do not think for one second that I am one of them." - Sherlock


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Dec 16 2017, 4:18am

Post #18 of 32 (3032 views)
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Men of the North and Men of the West [In reply to] Can't Post

We would not expect King Théoden of Rohan to appear unusually youthful for his age as he was not of the Dúnedain, though his mother was a woman of Gondor. Granted, that heritage probably helps to account for the inner strength he displays after Gandalf frees him from the influence of Wormtongue. Denethor is of the diminished bloodline of Gondor; nonetheless, we can't be certain of the length of his natural span of years as he died prematurely. He might have had another couple of decades or more in him.

I'm fairly sure that the Mouth of Sauron came into the Dark Lord's service around the year 2951, but other interpretations are possible. His natural lifespan might have been more-or-less that of a common Man; however, we have to consider that it might have been extended somewhat by sorcerous means. My assumption is that any remaining Black Númenóreans at that time were of a diminished bloodline and were for the most part Númenóreans in name only.

"I may be on the side of the angels, but do not think for one second that I am one of them." - Sherlock


noWizardme
Valinor


Dec 16 2017, 9:27am

Post #19 of 32 (3014 views)
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A paradox [In reply to] Can't Post

When someone has produced a startling, original work, I think fans often end up disappointed that there isn’t more; or they end up disappointed that there is more, but that it’s become predictable. Oh, why is it so difficult to produce an endless stream of works that are both refreshingly original, and comfortingly just the same?Wink

That’s how I reacted to squire’s comment: more works that follow an “epic” seem to be in the genre that epic created. So they don’t have the startling originality that some of us look for in an Epic (they can be “epic” in Other senses, such as “ very long”).

~~~~~~
Where's that old read-through discussion?
A wonderful list of links to previous chapters in the 2014-2016 LOTR read-through (and to previous read-throughs) is curated by our very own 'squire' here http://users.bestweb.net/...-SixthDiscussion.htm


Hamfast Gamgee
Grey Havens

Dec 16 2017, 11:51pm

Post #20 of 32 (2922 views)
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I did have an idea [In reply to] Can't Post

That there would be a powerful and talented Elf that likes life in Middle-Earth and is less than impressed than the two choices available to him post Ring-destruction. Go to the West which he has never seen and has no desire to or to fade. He ain't fading. Unless he uses some strange spells he has found access to to prolong his life in Middle-Earth. Of course these spells do have an evil taint and can destroy the mind of many, but they won't happen to him of course. At least so he thinks. And I can imagine even a sympathetic if a bit rebellious Elf thinking this.


Belegdir
Lorien


Dec 17 2017, 12:28pm

Post #21 of 32 (2903 views)
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That sounds terribly like [In reply to] Can't Post

Elric of Melnibone. That's no bad thing though.


Elthir
Grey Havens

Dec 17 2017, 2:19pm

Post #22 of 32 (2881 views)
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changing his change of mind? [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm not certain about this late note necessarily being the last thought Tolkien had here. On the reverse of this note runs the (more legible) idea published in Unfinished Tales, which includes (directly after referring to all five)...

"Now these Maiar were sent by the Valar at a crucial moment in the history of Middle-earth to enhance the resistance of the Elves of the West, greatly outnumbered by those of the East and South." JRRT "probably" 1972

In the "reverse side" note you refer to (deciphered enough to be published later in HME), the two other Istari (not necessarily blue, given Tolkien's reference from a letter) arrive way earlier than the others, in the Second Age, thus at a different moment in the history of Middle-earth than Saruman, Gandalf, Radagast...

... also, in the success story of the other two, it's said that they "... must have had a very great influence in disarraying the forces of East ... who would both in the Second and Third Age otherwise have... outnumbered the West."

Compare to the "greatly outnumbered" and so on, from the "reverse side" published in Unfinished Tales.

Possibly (total guess) Tolkien had recalled his already published implication (at least) in Appendix B, where the five seem to have appeared in the Third Age, and that the crucial moment was thus (turned out to be) related to the rise of Sauron again in the Third Age.

That said, in this (arguably) equally late alternative, nothing is said if the other two "fell" or achieved at least some measure of success in their mission.


(This post was edited by Elthir on Dec 17 2017, 2:24pm)


squire
Half-elven


Dec 17 2017, 2:46pm

Post #23 of 32 (2874 views)
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Thanks for that [In reply to] Can't Post

I was writing from memory. I'll have to go check out that later note in which some other wizards appear in the Second Age. I don't believe I've ever read that one!
There's always more...

(P.S. Good luck convincing anyone the Blue Wizards weren't the Blue Wizards. That detail has entered the fan mind irrevocably, I'd guess. When asked to write the article on 'The East' for the JRRT Encyclopedia, I was specifically tasked with covering, among other angles, the Blue Wizards. Evidently even the scholarly editors of the book were convinced of the importance, and color, of those guys. I actually chose to leave them out, as their tangled existence, names, mission, etc. would have taken up a lot of my wordcount and I have never thought them very important at all, to the East or any other part of the story.)



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Elthir
Grey Havens

Dec 17 2017, 8:59pm

Post #24 of 32 (2844 views)
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my mission in the East... [In reply to] Can't Post

... is to advance the notion of two colourless wizards Wink

For anyone questioning my madness (besides myself)...

"Question 3. I have not named the colours, because I do not know them. Distinction was only required in the case of the three who remained in the relatively small area of the North-west." JRRT, 1958, letter [211] to Rhona Beare.

And so far I can't recall/find/trip over anything later in which Tolkien refers to them as blue.

Anyway, the note where the two wizards arrive in Middle-earth in the Second Age (and have success) is found in Last Writings, The Peoples of Middle-Earth.


squire
Half-elven


Dec 17 2017, 9:25pm

Post #25 of 32 (2837 views)
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He calls them the Blue Wizards in the "Istari" essay in Unfinished Tales [In reply to] Can't Post

This, and the following excerpted fragment that gives the Blue Wizards the names Alatar and Pallando, are probably the source of most people's knowledge of them. The suggestion of a mission to the East, with an unknown fate possibly including corruption by Sauron, seems to have tantalized generations of Tolkien fans.
"Others there were also: two clad in sea-blue, and one in earthen brown; and the last came one who seemed the least, less tall than the others, and in looks more aged, grey-haired and grey-clad, and leaning on a staff. ...
"Now the White Messenger in later days became known Elves as Curunír, the Man of Craft, in the tongue of Northern Men Saruman; but that was after he returned from his many journeys and came into the realm of Gondor and there abode. Of the Blue little was known in the West, and they had no names save Ithryn Luin “the Blue Wizards;” for they passed into the East with Curunír, but they never returned, and whether they remained in the East, pursuing there the purposes for which they were sent; or perished; or as some hold were ensnared by Sauron and became his servants, is not now known." - Unfinished Tales, "The Istari".

The later notes with new names, a new timeline, and a new vision of the success of their mission, as you and I were discussing, are really uncovered more thoroughly in History of Middle-earth, which far fewer people have read.



squire online:
RR Discussions: The Valaquenta, A Shortcut to Mushrooms, and Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit
Lights! Action! Discuss on the Movie board!: 'A Journey in the Dark'. and 'Designing The Two Towers'.
Archive: All the TORn Reading Room Book Discussions (including the 1st BotR Discussion!) and Footerama: "Tolkien would have LOVED it!"
Dr. Squire introduces the J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia: A Reader's Diary


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