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How about Inter-race marraige?
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just_a_guy
The Shire

Nov 20 2017, 5:15am

Post #1 of 32 (5966 views)
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How about Inter-race marraige? Can't Post

I was just wondering whether there were any inter-race marriage in middle-earth or was it some kind of sacrilege???


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Nov 20 2017, 6:20am

Post #2 of 32 (5909 views)
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Yes there was. [In reply to] Can't Post

Besides the obvious Man/Elf unions Tolkien did mention the dilution of the Dúnedain bloodline, particularly in Gondor. It began with Valacar, the twentieth King of Gondor, who wed Vidumavi, a daughter of the Northmen. This eventually led to the Kin-strife. Then, during the reign of Eldacar, the son of Valacar:

Quote
After the return of Eldacar the blood of the kingly house and other houses of the Dúnedain became more mingled with that of lesser Men. For many of the great had been slain in the Kin-strife; while Eldacar showed favour to the Northmen, by whose help he had regained the crown, and the people of Gondor were replenished by great numbers that came from Rhovanion.

This mingling did not at first hasten the waning of the Dúnedain, as had been feared; but the waning still proceeded, little by little, as it had before. For no doubt it was due above all to Middle-earth itself, and to the slow withdrawing of the gifts of the Númenóreans after the downfall of the Land of the Star. Eldacar lived to his two hundred and thirty-fifth year, and was king for fifty-eight years, of which ten were spent in exile.


The Black Númenóreans in the South also intermarried with lesser Men:


Quote
After the fall of Sauron [at the end of the Second Age] their race swiftly dwindled or became merged with the Men of Middle-earth...


"I may be on the side of the angels, but do not think for one second that I am one of them." - Sherlock

(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Nov 20 2017, 6:30am)


just_a_guy
The Shire

Nov 20 2017, 7:00am

Post #3 of 32 (5893 views)
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Hobbits? [In reply to] Can't Post

I was wondering if Bullroarer Took was result of such union (with "Big People"), Tooks being of adventurous make may have some dealings with them......


noWizardme
Half-elven


Nov 20 2017, 8:32am

Post #4 of 32 (5886 views)
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For readers to fill in the gaps, I think [In reply to] Can't Post

As far as I know, there’s nothing in the text or Tolkien’s other writings about that. Maybe he didn’t think about it, having a zillion other items to invent.

So everyone fills in the gaps their own way, and as long as everyone remembers it’s all opinion, we get along fine.

~~~~~~
Where's that old read-through discussion?
A wonderful list of links to previous chapters in the 2014-2016 LOTR read-through (and to previous read-throughs) is curated by our very own 'squire' here http://users.bestweb.net/...-SixthDiscussion.htm


just_a_guy
The Shire

Nov 20 2017, 12:45pm

Post #5 of 32 (5871 views)
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Right [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
As far as I know, there’s nothing in the text or Tolkien’s other writings about that. Maybe he didn’t think about it, having a zillion other items to invent.

So everyone fills in the gaps their own way, and as long as everyone remembers it’s all opinion, we get along fine.

Guess, everyone has their own version of Middle Earth as far as details are concerned...


noWizardme
Half-elven


Nov 20 2017, 1:27pm

Post #6 of 32 (5869 views)
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Oh yes... [In reply to] Can't Post

Sometimes the storyteller knows a lot of detail that they haven't put into the tale for one reason or another. For Tolkien, some of that went into the Appendices, or has been published posthumously by JRR's son Christopher. So there is a lot of background available for analysis, though it is not always consistent, and couldn't possibly answer every possible question. Tolkien worked at his tales for many years, and things slowly evolved. He did not operate like a modern multi-writer franchise, with a 'series bible' or database to record all details expressly to prevent different writing teams from contradicting each other.

Sometimes (I know from personal experience apart from anything else) storytellers have never thought about a particular detail at all, and are delighted - or annoyed - by reader theories.

Sometimes, the point of something was to leave it as a mystery as a literary effect. Tolkien refused, for example to elaborate on detail of who/what Tom Bombadill was - presumably because he's supposed to be a mystery. That hasn't stopped people from constructing many rival theories, some of them pretty ingenious.

~~~~~~
Where's that old read-through discussion?
A wonderful list of links to previous chapters in the 2014-2016 LOTR read-through (and to previous read-throughs) is curated by our very own 'squire' here http://users.bestweb.net/...-SixthDiscussion.htm


Darkstone
Immortal


Nov 20 2017, 4:39pm

Post #7 of 32 (5859 views)
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Possibly [In reply to] Can't Post

It was often said (in other families) that long ago one of the Took ancestors must have taken a fairy wife.
-An Unexpected Party

In earlier Tolkien writings "fairy" was a name for "elf". Indeed, from his attempted 1960 rewrite of The Hobbit:

It was often said (in other families) that the Tooks must have some elvish blood in them...
-An Unexpected Party

Oddly enough, in The Prologue Tolkien says the Fallohides "were more friendly with Elves than the other Hobbits were".

(However, perhaps most disconcerting of all is one of the earlier versions of An Unexpected Party:

It had always been said that long ago some or other of the Tooks had married into a fairy family (goblin family said severer critics); certainly there was something not entirely hobbit-like about them….
-From "The Bladorthin Typescript")

******************************************
The audacious proposal stirred his heart. And the stirring became a song, and it mingled with the songs of Gil-galad and Celebrian, and with those of Feanor and Fingon. The song-weaving created a larger song, and then another, until suddenly it was as if a long forgotten memory woke and for one breathtaking moment the Music of the Ainur revealed itself in all glory. He opened his lips to sing and share this song. Then he realized that the others would not understand. Not even Mithrandir given his current state of mind. So he smiled and simply said "A diversion.”




Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Nov 20 2017, 4:57pm

Post #8 of 32 (5857 views)
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Probably not Hobbits (except within their own divisions). [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
I was wondering if Bullroarer Took was result of such union (with "Big People"), Tooks being of adventurous make may have some dealings with them......


There is the story of one of Bilbo's forebears having taken a 'fairy bride', but we can probably dismiss that as apocryphal.


Quote
It was often said (in other families) that long ago one of the Took ancestors must have taken a fairy wife.


There is also no evidence of unions between the Dwarves and any other race of Middle-earth.

I should have previously noted, though, the marriage of the Sinda Thingol with the Maia Melian which resulted in the birth of Lúthien Tinúviel. Lúthien, of course, famously wed the mortal Beren.

There do not seem to be any other tales of one of the Ainur joining with one of the Children (or Stepchildren) of Ilúvatar; though there was Ungoliant who must have bred with Middle-earth spiders (perhaps products of Morgoth's corruption) to produce Shelob and the ancestors of the giant spiders of Mirkwood. And there was the breeding of the Half-trolls/Troll-men and of the Olog-hai Trolls.

We don't have the details about how Morgoth created such servants as his Werewolves, evil spirits embodied in the forms of huge Wargs.

"I may be on the side of the angels, but do not think for one second that I am one of them." - Sherlock

(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Nov 20 2017, 5:02pm)


Darkstone
Immortal


Nov 20 2017, 5:01pm

Post #9 of 32 (5854 views)
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Well [In reply to] Can't Post

Beren and Aragorn both definitely had to go to great lengths to prove they were more than mere Men before Thingol and Elrond (respectively) would let them marry their daughters. Tuor was lucky enough to have already proven himself to King Turgon before falling in love with Idril. So yeah, Elf fathers might well look on it as sacrilege.

If there was a place for interracial marriage it would be Bree. And indeed the Big Folk do seem rather hobbit-like: "The Men of Bree were brown-haired, broad, and rather short, cheerful and independent." (-At the Sign of The Prancing Pony)

******************************************
The audacious proposal stirred his heart. And the stirring became a song, and it mingled with the songs of Gil-galad and Celebrian, and with those of Feanor and Fingon. The song-weaving created a larger song, and then another, until suddenly it was as if a long forgotten memory woke and for one breathtaking moment the Music of the Ainur revealed itself in all glory. He opened his lips to sing and share this song. Then he realized that the others would not understand. Not even Mithrandir given his current state of mind. So he smiled and simply said "A diversion.”




Bracegirdle
Valinor


Nov 20 2017, 5:48pm

Post #10 of 32 (5842 views)
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I think Gálmód had a quicky with a wayward female Wose and ended up with baby Grima. // [In reply to] Can't Post

 

‘. . . the rule of no realm is mine . . .
But all worthy things that are in peril . . . those are my care.
For I also am a steward. Did you not know?'

Gandalf to Denethor




Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Nov 20 2017, 6:14pm

Post #11 of 32 (5840 views)
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Bree-landers [In reply to] Can't Post

The Men of Bree and the surrounding villages were a mixture of Dunlendings, Northmen and probably a bit of the Dúnedain. In my home-brewed gaming material for Western Eriador, I have posited that Bree-landers who have adopted a wandering life might have occasionally take a wife from among the Lossoth (Snowmen) of Forochel.

"I may be on the side of the angels, but do not think for one second that I am one of them." - Sherlock


squire
Half-elven


Nov 20 2017, 7:45pm

Post #12 of 32 (5834 views)
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The gag about the goblins was in the original 'Hobbit'. [In reply to] Can't Post

Tolkien only edited it out in a later edition.

He did make a few minor changes between the draft which you kindly showed us, and the published text:

It had always been said that long ago some or other of the Tooks had married into a fairy family (goblin family said severer critics); certainly there was something not entirely hobbit-like about them…. (Bladorthin typescript, History of the Hobbit, I.29)

It had always been said that long ago one or other of the Tooks had married into a fairy family (the less friendly said a goblin family); certainly there was still something not entirely hobbitlike about them…. (The Hobbit, 1938 U.S. edition, 12-13.)


When Tolkien somewhat inadvertently changed The Hobbit's famous Riddles in the Dark chapter after the War for the first reprint of The Hobbit, he was not thinking of revising the book in general, even though The Lord of the Rings was nearly finished. This passage about the 'fairy family' and 'goblin family' remained in the book until Tolkien returned to it in the mid 1960s, to retain copyright for a paperback edition. At that point, the story changes to what readers encounter today:

It was often said (in other families) that long ago one of the Took ancestors must have taken a fairy wife. That was, of course, absurd, but certainly there was still something not entirely hobbitlike about them... (The Hobbit, 1937/1966/1994 copyrights, 12)


The funny thing is that, while he finally got rid of the inelegant joke about goblins (he was probably sure by now that goblins in his world didn't have "wives") he retained the term 'fairy wife', deciding not to change it to 'elvish blood' as in the abortive 1960 rewrite that you noted. Perhaps he felt that, by using 'fairy' instead of 'elf', adding the note that only other families said this so it could no longer be read as the Tooks' own family lore, as well as scoffing that a fairy wife was "of course, absurd", he could qualify the entire thing as a joke whose only point is that the Tooks are the most elf-like (i.e., likely to have adventures as in fairy-tales) of the hobbit clans.

Goblins and Elves aside, what's more interesting to me is this new question of whether Hobbits and Men could still interbreed. I love the guess just posted that Bullroarer got his stature from having a bit of "Men's blood" in him. Of course Tolkien says nothing about any such possibility, even as he tell us the interesting fact (absent from The Hobbit in any context at all) that "It is plain indeed that in spite of later estrangement Hobbits are relatives of ours: far nearer to us than Elves, or even than Dwarves." (LotR, Prologue). That perhaps helps solve the question of why Hobbits do not appear in The Silmarillion -- my guess as to why he even mentions this -- but it also raises the question of why, if even Men and Elves could marry and have children across the barrier of mortality, Men and Hobbits could not marry across the barrier of nose and navel.



squire online:
RR Discussions: The Valaquenta, A Shortcut to Mushrooms, and Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit
Lights! Action! Discuss on the Movie board!: 'A Journey in the Dark'. and 'Designing The Two Towers'.
Archive: All the TORn Reading Room Book Discussions (including the 1st BotR Discussion!) and Footerama: "Tolkien would have LOVED it!"
Dr. Squire introduces the J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia: A Reader's Diary


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Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Nov 20 2017, 8:41pm

Post #13 of 32 (5823 views)
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Mannish Hobbits and Half-dwarves [In reply to] Can't Post

I agree that there is no real reason to suppose that Men and Hobbits could not intermarry, though there is no evidence that they ever did so.

It seems less likely that Men and Dwarves could produce children together; however, at least one non-canonical source suggested otherwise. Iron Crown's long out-of-print Middle-earth Roleplaying (MERP) provided a player race called the Umli:


Quote
The Umli live in the Far North of north-central Middle-earth, east of the Lossoth. They are a race of short folk who apparently came from an ancient union of Men and Dwarves. Legends call them Half-dwarves.


I don't recall ever encountering a MERP player who ever admitted having an Umli character. I don't know whether such a race is available in The Lord of the Rings Online.

"I may be on the side of the angels, but do not think for one second that I am one of them." - Sherlock

(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Nov 20 2017, 8:41pm)


Morthoron
Gondor


Nov 22 2017, 3:52am

Post #14 of 32 (5758 views)
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They call themselves Dwelves, 'em Dwarves what marry Elves. ;P // [In reply to] Can't Post

 

Please visit my blog...The Dark Elf File...a slighty skewed journal of music and literary comment, fan-fiction and interminable essays.



noWizardme
Half-elven


Nov 22 2017, 5:48pm

Post #15 of 32 (5734 views)
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How would that work? "Shall I describe it to you... [In reply to] Can't Post

...or would you like me to find you a box?"
Evil

~~~~~~
Where's that old read-through discussion?
A wonderful list of links to previous chapters in the 2014-2016 LOTR read-through (and to previous read-throughs) is curated by our very own 'squire' here http://users.bestweb.net/...-SixthDiscussion.htm


noWizardme
Half-elven


Nov 22 2017, 5:50pm

Post #16 of 32 (5733 views)
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Some examples, I think [In reply to] Can't Post

Prince Imrahil (a Man) is supposed to have elvish blood in his ancestry.

There are half-orcs: I think we've previously debated whether these were a man-orc hybrid (or some other hybrid), but I can't remember whether it was possible to come to any definite conclusion.

~~~~~~
Where's that old read-through discussion?
A wonderful list of links to previous chapters in the 2014-2016 LOTR read-through (and to previous read-throughs) is curated by our very own 'squire' here http://users.bestweb.net/...-SixthDiscussion.htm


Darkstone
Immortal


Nov 22 2017, 6:50pm

Post #17 of 32 (5730 views)
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Naw. [In reply to] Can't Post

We're all pretty much the same height lying down.

******************************************
The audacious proposal stirred his heart. And the stirring became a song, and it mingled with the songs of Gil-galad and Celebrian, and with those of Feanor and Fingon. The song-weaving created a larger song, and then another, until suddenly it was as if a long forgotten memory woke and for one breathtaking moment the Music of the Ainur revealed itself in all glory. He opened his lips to sing and share this song. Then he realized that the others would not understand. Not even Mithrandir given his current state of mind. So he smiled and simply said "A diversion.”




(This post was edited by Darkstone on Nov 22 2017, 6:50pm)


No One in Particular
Lorien


Nov 25 2017, 12:33am

Post #18 of 32 (5685 views)
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Half man, half elf, all badass! [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Prince Imrahil (a Man) is supposed to have elvish blood in his ancestry.

There are half-orcs: I think we've previously debated whether these were a man-orc hybrid (or some other hybrid), but I can't remember whether it was possible to come to any definite conclusion.


Generally speaking, when talking of Man/Elf pairings, it usually involves Man/Noldor pairings, of which it is stated that there are only three.

Couldn't Imrahil (or others even!) have been a result of Man/non-Noldor pairings, of which no mention is ever made anywhere either for or against to my knowledge?

While you live, shine
Have no grief at all
Life exists only for a short while
And time demands an end.
Seikilos Epitaph


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Nov 25 2017, 3:13am

Post #19 of 32 (5676 views)
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Prince Imrahil [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Generally speaking, when talking of Man/Elf pairings, it usually involves Man/Noldor pairings, of which it is stated that there are only three.

Couldn't Imrahil (or others even!) have been a result of Man/non-Noldor pairings, of which no mention is ever made anywhere either for or against to my knowledge?


I think it is entirely possible, however, there seems to be at least one legend (in Unfinished Tales?) that says of the Princes of Dol Amroth:


Quote
...the first Prince, Galador, was half-elven: his father was Imrazôr the Númenórean, but his mother was an Elf-maid, Mithrellas. Imrahil was Galador's direct descendant through twenty-one generations, and so could himself claim distant descent from Mithrellas.

According to legend, Mithrellas was a companion of Nimrodel, who became lost in the woodlands of Belfalas, and was taken in by Imrazôr. As far as they go, these details match the established history of Nimrodel's journey. Though Tolkien presents this story as a tradition rather than a fact, it's notable that Legolas immediately detected Imrahil's Elvish descent, and so the story of Imrazôr and Mithrellas must contain at least a kernel of truth.


Source: The Encyclopedia of Arda (http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/i/imrahil.html)

"I may be on the side of the angels, but do not think for one second that I am one of them." - Sherlock


Meneldor
Valinor


Nov 25 2017, 3:56pm

Post #20 of 32 (5637 views)
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I'm not sure how this idea came into my head... [In reply to] Can't Post

I sometimes wonder if a long-term habitation of elves leaves a mark on the land, imbues a place with elven-ness. And perhaps that touch of faery might have an effect on others who occupy that place after the elves. So Dol Amroth was an elven home for ages, then the men who lived there afterwards soaked up that elven-ness.

I wonder what Men would become like if they settled in Lothlorien in the Fourth Age.


They that go down to the sea in ships, that do business in great waters, these see the works of the Lord, and His wonders in the deep. -Psalm 107


No One in Particular
Lorien


Nov 25 2017, 4:07pm

Post #21 of 32 (5634 views)
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Aha! [In reply to] Can't Post

Don't remember ever coming across that before, but at least I'm not completely crazy for thinking it!

While you live, shine
Have no grief at all
Life exists only for a short while
And time demands an end.
Seikilos Epitaph


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Nov 25 2017, 10:11pm

Post #22 of 32 (5600 views)
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Maybe not to such a degree. [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
I sometimes wonder if a long-term habitation of elves leaves a mark on the land, imbues a place with elven-ness. And perhaps that touch of faery might have an effect on others who occupy that place after the elves. So Dol Amroth was an elven home for ages, then the men who lived there afterwards soaked up that elven-ness.

I wonder what Men would become like if they settled in Lothlorien in the Fourth Age.


You raise an interesting point, we see some of that in Hollin (Eregion). However, I don't think that it would affect Men in the region to quite that degree. Even so, that sense of alienness might be why we don't see evidence of Men of Eriador settling in the lands between the River Lune and the Blue Mountains late in the Third Age.

"I may be on the side of the angels, but do not think for one second that I am one of them." - Sherlock


Eruonen
Half-elven


Dec 1 2017, 4:49pm

Post #23 of 32 (5457 views)
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Of course.... [In reply to] Can't Post

There once was a hobbit from Bree
He saw a tall lass and stood at her knee
With a puff of his pipe he proposed with glee
She blushed when his hands touched her knee
The ale and wine let her take a shine
To this little fellow from Bree
They married at dawn and rolled on the lawn
And had six sons and seven daughters, some tall and some wee.


(This post was edited by Eruonen on Dec 1 2017, 4:51pm)


Eruonen
Half-elven


Dec 1 2017, 5:11pm

Post #24 of 32 (5447 views)
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Ode to an orc lass [In reply to] Can't Post

There once was a man riding from Rohan
Who came upon an orc maiden,
Though ugly to his eyes, he still admired her thighs
She offered some liquor which he drunk with vigor
His admiration for her was bigger
And together they would linger
She looked better at night, by day such a fright
But Black liquor churned his fire, and created such a desire
Their forbidden love was an outlier
Knowing their love was doomed,
And unable to be apart
They soon consumed a tea of frog dart
They died so they would never be apart

Some claim to still seem them in the mire
In a glooming shadow of desire


(This post was edited by Eruonen on Dec 1 2017, 5:12pm)


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Dec 1 2017, 10:14pm

Post #25 of 32 (5430 views)
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An ElfQuest filk on the subject [In reply to] Can't Post

Here is an ElfQuest song by Leslie Fish from the perspective of the Elf/Troll hybrid Two-Edge. To bring it more in line with Tolkien's Middle-earth, imagine Two-Edge to instead be half-Elf and half-Dwarf:

TWO-EDGE: TROLL HALL

words & • Music: Leslie Fish

I am tall. I am strong. I live deep in the hill.
And I love a good brawl, and I love a good kill.
And that’s all I hold true in this whole world of lies.
Damn its heart! Damn its guts! Damn its eyes!

Oh my sire was a troll, and my dam was an elf.
They had plans for my use. I had plans for myself.
From his frame I grew strong. From her wit I grew wise.
Damn their hearts! Damn their guts! Damn their eyes!

I forge chains of intrigue. I make fine tools of war.
I shall stalk through your hold. I shall take every door.
I shall drag down my foe; I shall laugh at her cries.
Damn her heart! Damn her guts! Damn her eyes!

I’ll pit elf against troll, your dead peace I’ll destroy.
See me now, Mother Dear! Are you proud of your boy?
To my hall they’ll all come to the end I’ve devised.
Damn your heart! Damn your guts! Damn your eyes!


To be fair to Two-Edge, neither of his parents were terrific role-models, especially his dear mother Winnowill.



"I may be on the side of the angels, but do not think for one second that I am one of them." - Sherlock

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