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The One Ring Forums: Off Topic: The Pollantir:
Well then, come on, which way? Up, or down? - Middle-earth Geography Poll
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Poll: Well then, come on, which way? Up, or down? - Middle-earth Geography Poll
Up (and then down quickly)
Down (alternate, less severe)
View Results (10 votes)
 

grammaboodawg
Immortal


Nov 9 2017, 1:52pm

Post #26 of 44 (4633 views)
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When it comes to maps [In reply to] Can't Post

What each one has to offer and how they're used. I'd suggest using those done by Tolkien. Other interpretations are fun and helpful; but when there's a conflict or some questionable use... I'd turn to Tolkien's maps done by him. :)

I've looked at maps by Brian Sibley, John Howe, Barbara Stratchey, Weta and many more (not to mention Fonstadt); and I find variations in each one. I do admit being drawn to those with markings and easy to read ;)


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Nov 9 2017, 2:34pm

Post #27 of 44 (4631 views)
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Tolkien's maps? [In reply to] Can't Post

When we talk about maps drawn by J.R.R. Tolkien, aren't there actually very few? The most well-known maps of Middle-earth that go beyond Wilderland and the Lonely Mountain were drawn by his son Christopher Tolkien, though those did at least have the elder Tolkien's approval.

At the other end of the spectrum, we have Allan Curless' highly interpretive "Map of Middle-earth and the Undying Lands" that appeared in David Day's A Tolkien Bestiary and was never meant to be accurate in a physical sense.


Bracegirdle
Valinor


Nov 9 2017, 6:19pm

Post #28 of 44 (4621 views)
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Clarification please [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
I estimate 76 miles from their meeting with Glorfindel

Does this mean 76 miles from the meeting w/ Glorfindel to the Ford? Or 76 miles from the Last Bridge to the meeting w/ Glorfindel?

Also I must confess some ignorance about the 22 miles Ford to Rivendell. Could you tell me where this 22 miles comes from. (It does not seem unreasonable though.) The only textual information I can find is that Gandalf tells Frodo: "The Elves brought you from the Ford on the night of the twentieth...", which doesn't do us any good...


Bracegirdle
Valinor


Nov 9 2017, 6:38pm

Post #29 of 44 (4617 views)
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about the maps [In reply to] Can't Post

 

In Reply To
What each one has to offer and how they're used. I'd suggest using those done by Tolkien. Other interpretations are fun and helpful; but when there's a conflict or some questionable use... I'd turn to Tolkien's maps done by him. :)

Hear, hear!
My big fold-out map (19" wide x 14 1/2") is initialed by CJRT and seems to match very closely to the smaller (paperback) map inserts. I seem to recall (don't know when or where) that at least all the smaller maps (if not bigger ones) were ok'd by JRR himself.

Nevertheless, it seems that no matter which we use 100 miles Bridge to Ford seems to be in the ballpark....


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Nov 9 2017, 7:24pm

Post #30 of 44 (4608 views)
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C. Tolkien's Maps [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Also I must confess some ignorance about the 22 miles Ford to Rivendell. Could you tell me where this 22 miles comes from. (It does not seem unreasonable though.) The only textual information I can find is that Gandalf tells Frodo: "The Elves brought you from the Ford on the night of the twentieth...", which doesn't do us any good...


Looking at Christopher Tolkien's maps, Rivendell does seem to be between 20 and 25 miles from the Ford of Bruinen, just to the north of the small bridge that crosses the stream that is the lesser source of the river ("Don't dip your beard in the foam, father!" they cried to Thorin..."). J.R.R. Tolkien's map in The Hobbit lacks a scale. The same maps consistently indicate about 90 mile from the Last Bridge (crossing the River Hoarwell) to the Ford. My map of Eriador from Journeys & Maps for The One Ring agrees with them. It is reasonable to conclude that it is approximately 112 miles from the Last Bridge to the Last Homely House.

So, about a mileafter crossing the bridge, Aragorn and the others turned to the north to leave the road. According to Tolkien, they maintained a generally eastward direction for two days (in rough country, so maybe making 10 miles per day) before being forced north again. After another day, they found a way south but had to climb a ridge to avoid being forced to turn back. The day after that was when the company came upon the remains of the Trolls. Yeah, that could represent 75 miles of progress.


(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Nov 9 2017, 7:39pm)


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Nov 9 2017, 7:42pm

Post #31 of 44 (4588 views)
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Error. [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
So, about a mile after crossing the bridge, Aragorn and the others turned to the north to leave the road. According to Tolkien, they maintained a generally eastward direction for two days (in rough country, so maybe making 10 miles per day) before being forced north again. After another day, they found a way south but had to climb a ridge to avoid being forced to turn back. The day after that was when the company came upon the remains of the Trolls. Yeah, that could represent 75 miles of progress.


Sorry, that last sentence should have read: "That could represent around 25 miles of progress, maybe more."


(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Nov 9 2017, 7:50pm)


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Nov 9 2017, 9:11pm

Post #32 of 44 (4558 views)
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By the book! [In reply to] Can't Post

One more attempt to work this out, step-by-step:

October 13: Aragorn and the Hobbits cross the Last Bridge and leave the road after about a mile, maintaining a generally eastward direction. Estimated distance traveled: 15 miles.

October 14: Continuing eastward about 15 miles.

October 15: Continuing eastward about 15 miles.

October 16: Continuing eastward about 15 miles.

October 17: The company finds a valley that allows them to turn to the south-east only to have to climb a ridge where they camp. Estimated distance traveled: 10 miles.

October 18: They find Bilbo's Trolls; Glorfindel finds the company at dusk. Estimated distance traveled: 10 to 15 miles.

So the company might have traveled on foot for as much as 80 to 85 miles off-road from the Last Bridge to where they met Glorfindel, but covered perhaps 50 miles by the Road. It couldn't have been much further than that because they were still two marches (about 40 miles) away from the Ford of Bruinen. And past the Ford for another 20 miles or so to Rivendell.

The off-road distance that Aragorn and the Hobbits traveled might well have been less than I've estimated, maybe as little as 70 miles. And that is not counting the distance from Bree to Weathertop to the Last Bridge.


(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Nov 9 2017, 9:16pm)


Bracegirdle
Valinor


Nov 9 2017, 11:26pm

Post #33 of 44 (4537 views)
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Moot... ? [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Looking at Christopher Tolkien's maps, Rivendell does seem to be between 20 and 25 miles from the Ford of Bruinen

I think you are correct here, but it's a complication I've not been considering - just the distance and times from the Last Bridge to the meeting with Glorfindel to the Ford of Rivendell. Ford to Rivendell 20 or 25 miles - pick a number.


In Reply To
The same maps consistently indicate about 90 mile from the Last Bridge (crossing the River Hoarwell) to the Ford.

I won't argue with your 90 mile figure. But my maps show a straight line Bridge to Ford and I have taken the liberty of adding 10 miles for twists and turns in the Road making a total of 100 miles (also makes for easier calculations).


In Reply To
So, about a mileafter crossing the bridge, Aragorn and the others turned to the north to leave the road. According to Tolkien, they maintained a generally eastward direction for two days

Agreed but, after crossing the Bridge they remain on the road for one mile then "...they came to a narrow ravine that led away northwards through steep lands on the left of the Road. Here Strider turned aside ... "

This means (to me) they 'turned aside' off the Road and headed northwards (the only option). "The hobbits were glad to leave the cheerless lands and the perilous Road behind [south] them . . . the hills about them steadily rose . . . [Frodo] recalled Bilbo's account of his journey and the threatening towers of the hills north of the Road ...". This seems to indicate that they traveled north for some time before turning east (maybe only but a few hours before turning east, the direction they really wanted to go).).


Bracegirdle
Valinor


Nov 9 2017, 11:50pm

Post #34 of 44 (4529 views)
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Your mileage figures seem reasonable [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
So the company might have traveled on foot for as much as 80 to 85 miles off-road from the Last Bridge to where they met Glorfindel, but covered perhaps 50 miles by the Road. It couldn't have been much further than that because they were still two marches about 40 miles) away from the Ford of Bruinen.

Except they had three marches after meeting Glorfindel (see my post 22). Yet still your 40 miles from the Ford seems reasonable. Putting them 50 or 60 miles down the road from the Bridge. Eeew - pick a spot - again.... Wink Cheers


tinkermarm
Bree


Nov 10 2017, 2:21am

Post #35 of 44 (4513 views)
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Some clarification [In reply to] Can't Post

Take a look at this Google doc:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1ivrCGs8W4vKCefNWM-xASkqw0hWnyKQqsKgHjVlqrog/edit?usp=sharing

Instead of trying to explain it, I built a few tables at the bottom that show some of the different distances that I'm getting. The one I highlighted in green is the one I'm currently leaning toward. Let me know what you think and if that clears things up a bit. :)


tinkermarm
Bree


Nov 10 2017, 2:36am

Post #36 of 44 (4511 views)
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How about 122 miles? [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm trying to get a good idea of the distances here, so I've built a chart. You may have seen it before, but I'd appreciate your thoughts on this:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1ivrCGs8W4vKCefNWM-xASkqw0hWnyKQqsKgHjVlqrog/edit?usp=sharing

I've added some extra stuff at the bottom with distances from the Last Bridge to Rivendell, Glorfindel to Rivendell, etc.

Thanks again for all your help on this, it's been really great! :D


(This post was edited by tinkermarm on Nov 10 2017, 2:37am)


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Nov 10 2017, 3:51am

Post #37 of 44 (4504 views)
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How about 112 miles? [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
How about 122 miles?


I agree to disagree. Even taking any twists or turns in the Road into account, I still think the distance between the Last Bridge and the Ford of Bruinen is closer to 90 miles than 100, but what's a few miles between friends?

Nice job on your chart though!


(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Nov 10 2017, 3:52am)


Bracegirdle
Valinor


Nov 10 2017, 9:41pm

Post #38 of 44 (4487 views)
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By the book – Part 2: Redundancy, supposition, and facts: [In reply to] Can't Post

Ok, we’re getting somewhat redundant so I’m going slowly paragraph by paragraph:

Facts: They cross the Last Bridge in the morning of Oct. 13. Walk one mile east on the Road to a narrow ravine heading north which they take. They walk an unknown distance when it’s mentioned that the Road behind held on its way to the R. Bruinen (Loudwater).
Comment: After an unknown period of time they are still heading north (Road behind).
After 2 days the weather turned wet. Their camp was cheerless. The next day (Oct. 16) they were forced northward out of their course. That night they camped on a stony shelf.
This is a second mention of a northward course. To be ‘forced north’ they must have been traveling east for some unknown unmentioned period of time (between Oct. 13 and Oct. 16).
In the morning (Oct. 17th) they did not start early. Strider mentions that they had traveled too far north and they needed to find a way to turn back southward. Sometime that day they found a valley running south-east, but towards the end of the day were barred by a high ridge. The light was nearly gone when they reached the top of the ridge. Strider mentions they can go no further that night. Morning of Oct. 18 Strider informed them they had been traveling in more or less the right direction. Sometime in the morning they climbed down the southern side of the ridge. The sun was high when Pippin spotted the Trolls and they had their mid-day meal in the shadow of the Trolls. Then after a few miles they came to a high bank above the Road – early evening. Meeting with Glorfindel, dusk Oct. 18.
Break: It is mentioned twice before the meeting with Glorfindel that the Road was “rolling and winding”. Also after meeting Glorfindel it is mentioned that “the Road bent right” (this was on Oct. 19). As the maps by CJRT show the Road from the Last Bridge to the Ford as a straight 90 miles (which seems logical for a mapmaker) it was not straight in reality. It had dips and rises which add to the total distance, and ‘winding’ which naturally adds to the overall distance in question. I.e. I have assumed the total distance Bridge to Ford as more than 90 straight miles, but possibly less than the 100 miles I have been expounding. A moot point?
They marched on the Road from dusk of the 18th until dawn of the 19th. Glorfindel had given them somewhat less than five hours sleep when they set out again around mid-morning of Oct. 19th. They made ‘almost twenty miles before nightfall’. They set out again (Oct. 20) early in the morning with ‘many miles yet to go’ to the Ford. They reach the long flat mile late afternoon.
They have three treks with Glorfindel: Oct. 18, dusk till dawn of the 19th; Oct. 19, a slightly short day after five hours rest they camped after ‘almost twenty miles’, nightfall; Oct. 20, early morning and ‘many miles yet to go’ to the Ford. Late afternoon they reach a ‘dark shadow of tall pine-trees some short distance to the ‘long flat mile’ before the Ford.

Some facts and some supposition: They cross the Last Bridge morning of Oct. 13, head north.
Oct. 16th they were forced north. Sometime between the 13th and the 16th they must have been going east. We don’t know where or when or for how long; it’s not recorded. On Oct. 18 they come across the Trolls and meet up with Glorfindel. As it is recorded that they made almost twenty miles on the 19th, we could assume they made an equal distance on the 18th and the 20th, which would put the meeting with Glorfindel about sixty miles west of the Ford, or forty miles east of the Bridge. Would this be the most drastic calculation of the three treks? It could be somewhat less – likely?

Here’s where personal preference takes over I think. I have none – really! Pick a distance . . . And it’s the same with the distance from the Ford to Rivendell. Is it 18 miles? Is it 25 miles? Does it really matter? Personal preference. . . Pick a distance . . .


Yes, nice chart tinkermarm. Good luck...Heart


tinkermarm
Bree


Nov 11 2017, 2:03am

Post #39 of 44 (4466 views)
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Woot for Tolkien experts! [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
but what's a few miles between friends?


Hahaha, this made me laugh. :D

But, seriously, thank you for your opinion, *this* is why I asked: I don't fancy myself an expert in these areas, and it's really helpful to get responses like this where you've got a definite opinion here. I'll weigh it in while I'm deciding what to do with this.


tinkermarm
Bree


Nov 11 2017, 2:13am

Post #40 of 44 (4466 views)
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You guys all rock. [In reply to] Can't Post

Awesome, thank you for taking the time to break it down like that!


In Reply To
Here’s where personal preference takes over I think. I have none – really! Pick a distance . . . And it’s the same with the distance from the Ford to Rivendell. Is it 18 miles? Is it 25 miles? Does it really matter? Personal preference. . . Pick a distance . . .


Alright, cool. While I am planning to build this app to appeal to a fairly broad audience, I want to be sure that the people most happy with it are Tolkien people who actually care about this because it's near and dear to them...and who will know better if I goof it up. Tongue


Bracegirdle
Valinor


Nov 11 2017, 10:31pm

Post #41 of 44 (4393 views)
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Ok, if it's near and dear [In reply to] Can't Post

and I have to choose I choose the halfway point Last Bridge to the Ford of Rivendell.


In Reply To
I want to be sure that the people most happy with it are Tolkien people who actually care about this because it's near and dear to them..

That would be about 50 miles either way. Which would make march #1, 15 miles; march #2, 20 miles; and march #3, 15 miles.

And your 22 miles Ford to Rivendell is peachy.

I've had lots of fun (and gained a tad of wisdom) with this subject - so thank you for that! Smile


tinkermarm
Bree


Nov 11 2017, 11:55pm

Post #42 of 44 (4382 views)
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Your voice has been heard. [In reply to] Can't Post

I will take this all (and everything posted previously) into consideration as I build the app. Thanks a schmillion for your input, and all the scholarly work that you put into coming to a great answer to this. :)


swordwhale
Tol Eressea


Nov 23 2017, 11:39pm

Post #43 of 44 (4090 views)
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um yeah [In reply to] Can't Post

you all have just 150% outgeeked me....

also Topographically Impaired, so I'd have to have a GPS, a donkeyload of maps, a Polynesian star navigator, a sextant, and five Rangers....

where are we now??????????

Can't someone just get those big honkin eagles?


tinkermarm
Bree


Nov 26 2017, 4:11am

Post #44 of 44 (3994 views)
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Hahaha! [In reply to] Can't Post

:D

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