Our Sponsor Sideshow Collectibles Send us News
Lord of the Rings Tolkien
Search Tolkien
Lord of The RingsTheOneRing.net - Forged By And For Fans Of JRR Tolkien
Lord of The Rings Serving Middle-Earth Since The First Age

Lord of the Rings Movie News - J.R.R. Tolkien
Do you enjoy the 100% volunteer, not for profit services of TheOneRing.net?
Consider a donation!

  Main Index   Search Posts   Who's Online   Log in
The One Ring Forums: Off Topic: The Pollantir:
Well then, come on, which way? Up, or down? - Middle-earth Geography Poll
First page Previous page 1 2 Next page Last page  View All
Poll: Well then, come on, which way? Up, or down? - Middle-earth Geography Poll
Up (and then down quickly)
Down (alternate, less severe)
View Results (9 votes)
 

tinkermarm
Bree


Nov 1 2017, 10:23pm

Post #1 of 44 (1325 views)
Shortcut
Well then, come on, which way? Up, or down? - Middle-earth Geography Poll Can't Post

Hi All,

I am building a walking-to-Mordor app and would appreciate any input you may be able to provide on a certain aspect of it:

I'm currently mapping out the path that Frodo and Sam took to get to Mordor, and coming up on the part of the Trollshaws. In The Atlas of Middle-earth there are two different paths suggested as possible ones that the hobbits took. One veers North fairly quickly and then cuts South; the other goes at a gentler slope. If you have a copy of the Atlas and/or just a biased opinion toward one path versus another, I'd be really interested to know which path and why.

Thanks in advance!

Cheers,
tinkermarm


Bracegirdle
Valinor


Nov 2 2017, 6:19pm

Post #2 of 44 (1213 views)
Shortcut
Some thoughts [In reply to] Can't Post

Italics from Flight to the Ford

Leaving Weathertop, They started off in a southerly direction. This would mean crossing the Road, but it was the quickest way to more wooded country.

After the about the 6th day they started back north and made it to the Last Bridge where Aragorn found the beryl. After crossing the Bridge . . . they came to a narrow ravine that led away northwards . . . on the left [north] of the Road . . . Here Strider turned aside. and left the Road behind (south) them.

After about 10 days (from Weathertop) we hear from Strider: 'We have come too far to the north ... and we must find some way to turn back southwards again. If we keep on as we are we shall get up into the Ettendales far north of Rivendell. That is troll-country, and little known to me.

After about 11 days they came upon Tom, Bert, and William. This area was, it seems, fairly close to the Road. After a few miles they came out on the top of a high bank above the Road.

It seems to me they crossed the Bridge heading north and east and about 5 or 6 days later headed back south towards the Road.

Something like this map I figure.


Good luck with your app.


Bracegirdle
Valinor


Nov 2 2017, 6:49pm

Post #3 of 44 (1206 views)
Shortcut
And now the rest of the story: [In reply to] Can't Post

Looking at Fonstad's Atlas she has two versions.

Trying to think like Aragorn: He is heading for Rivendell. I don't figure he would head almost directly north, into unknown territory, for four or five days as her 'original' shows. To me her 'alternate' seems more logical (as my map), staying closer to the Road and eventual safety at Rivendell.


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Nov 2 2017, 6:50pm

Post #4 of 44 (1203 views)
Shortcut
Strider probably took the sharp turn north. [In reply to] Can't Post

The first route gives some explanation of how it took so long from where Aragorn and the Hobbits left the bridge to reach the campsite of the Trolls. The only option that would work better is if we assume the Last Bridge of The Lord of the Rings is not the one near where Thorin & Co. camped (and where one of the ponies plunged into the river). The bridge in The Hobbit could have crossed a smaller river or stream more to the east, placing the Last Bridge farther from the Troll-camp. Neither of the routes proposed by Fonstad satisfactorily explains how it takes Aragorn and the others five days to find the Trolls if they started out at the same place as where Bilbo and the Dwarves camped.


(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Nov 2 2017, 6:56pm)


tinkermarm
Bree


Nov 2 2017, 9:20pm

Post #5 of 44 (1178 views)
Shortcut
Would the terrain slow them down? [In reply to] Can't Post

They are pretty much in the woods at this point, could it have been slower going because of the terrain, I wonder?

Thanks for the feedback!


tinkermarm
Bree


Nov 2 2017, 9:25pm

Post #6 of 44 (1175 views)
Shortcut
Where would Strider go? [In reply to] Can't Post

This is a really good point. I especially appreciate the quotes, since direct quotes from the book help and I am rereading but not quite there yet. (I read and highlight things as my code is compiling.)

Since I have two good answers leaning in opposite directions, I'm going to skip over that part in my map for a day or two and see if anyone else will put in their two cents to weigh things a little more one way or another.

Thanks again for the feedback--this helps a ton! :)


Silverlode
Forum Admin / Moderator


Nov 2 2017, 9:35pm

Post #7 of 44 (1174 views)
Shortcut
The dwarves weren't trying to hide their trail. [In reply to] Can't Post

I think it's possible that Strider may have been deliberately taking a roundabout route to throw the Nine off the scent. It seems a risky thing to do with an ailing Frodo, but perhaps less dangerous than meeting up with a pack of Nazgul on the way. As it was, they barely squeaked through, with the help of Glorfindel and Asfaloth. So Strider may not have been taking the most "reasonable" route, because it would also be the easiest to track.


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Nov 3 2017, 12:54am

Post #8 of 44 (1146 views)
Shortcut
Sure. but not THAT much. [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Would the terrain slow them down? They are pretty much in the woods at this point, could it have been slower going because of the terrain, I wonder?


Remember, Bilbo and the Dwarves could see the light of the Trolls' fire from where they were camped. They probably reached the vicinity of the camp in less than an hour. It took Aragorn and the Hobbits five days to go from the Last Bridge to the petrified Trolls.


In Reply To
Thanks for the feedback!


You are most welcome.


Bracegirdle
Valinor


Nov 3 2017, 2:04am

Post #9 of 44 (1145 views)
Shortcut
Rethink [In reply to] Can't Post

Why would Aragorn go nearly directly north from the Last Bridge for five days? It would seem that every step forward would be one-half step away from the Ford and Rivendell. Running/hiding from the Nine? Yet since that far cry they had seen and heard no sign that the enemy had marked their flight ... Not once did they feel the sense of present evil that had assailed them before the attack in the dell. There are a couple other mentions of no sign of the enemy. This makes one think that Aragorn possibly wouldn't think this northerly route necessary. Or is he being overly cautious??

(Bold/Italics from Flight to the Ford)

But, they were with Glorfindel from dusk of Oct. 18 to dusk of the 20th when the Flight to the Ford takes place: two days. Doing some loose approximation (and map measuring), they had either about 40+ miles or some less than 20 miles to go after the meeting with Glorfindel to reach the Ford (depending on which of Fonstad's version we use). (My map measurements may be somewhat off, but it's the thought that counts Smile.) (Who knows the twists and turns and slopes of the Road?)

It is mentioned that they covered 20 miles on Oct. 19. Therefore we can assume they covered about 35 or so miles over this two-day period and the longer route seems to come into play, and taking the five-day northerly route makes some sense.

Thus my rethink, and your (and my) continuing quandary.... Unsure


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Nov 3 2017, 3:32am

Post #10 of 44 (1129 views)
Shortcut
Only North for half of the way. [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Why would Aragorn go nearly directly north from the Last Bridge for five days? It would seem that every step forward would be one-half step away from the Ford and Rivendell.


They wouldn't have been heading north for five days, but no more than half of that. They had to turn around and travel south again to reach the old Troll camp. But you're right, that still doesn't quite track to take five days to double back to within a mile or two from where they started.


(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Nov 3 2017, 3:33am)


Bracegirdle
Valinor


Nov 3 2017, 5:15pm

Post #11 of 44 (1065 views)
Shortcut
Let's go backward [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
They wouldn't have been heading north for five days, but no more than half of that. They had to turn around and travel south again to reach the old Troll camp. But you're right, that still doesn't quite track to take five days to double back to within a mile or two from where they started.

I agree, I don't see them going five days north, (as Fonstad's preference shows).

Taking a backward look:
1. Using CJRT's large fold-out map it's about 100 miles from the Last Bridge to the Ford.
2. It is stated in the text that they made just under 20 miles on Oct. 19 after meeting Glorfindel.

3. Now working backward we have those two reliable sources to work with.

4. Having two days with Glorfindel this puts them approximately 40 miles back (west) from the Ford, and about 60 miles east from the Bridge when they met Glorfindel. This almost agrees with Fonstad's east-north-east 'alternate' route.


tinkermarm
Bree


Nov 5 2017, 4:09am

Post #12 of 44 (1015 views)
Shortcut
Hear hear! Or there there? x) [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
They wouldn't have been heading north for five days, but no more than half of that. They had to turn around and travel south again to reach the old Troll camp. But you're right, that still doesn't quite track to take five days to double back to within a mile or two from where they started.


So, let me just make sure I understand this: you think they went North like the original version of Ms. Fonstad's map but then down south a few days sooner? Sorry for the confusion, I may just be misreading this. ;P

It sounds like you guys are leaning toward the alternate route, but everyone is voting for the original, so I'm a tad confused here.


tinkermarm
Bree


Nov 5 2017, 4:13am

Post #13 of 44 (1014 views)
Shortcut
So, we're actually looking more at the alternate route? [In reply to] Can't Post

Everyone seems to be voting for the original, more northernly route, but it seems that the latest consensus puts us more in favor of the alternate route. Am I reading this right? Or, is this still slightly not quite correct?

Also, I'm a bit sparse on the resources here: where can one obtain a copy of this large fold-out map from CJRT? I imagine that's a resource I ought to pick up if it's still available at a reasonable price.

Thanks again for all your feedback on this. :)


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Nov 5 2017, 5:14am

Post #14 of 44 (1011 views)
Shortcut
Neither route works completely. [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
So, let me just make sure I understand this: you think they went North like the original version of Ms. Fonstad's map but then down south a few days sooner? Sorry for the confusion, I may just be misreading this. ;P


I was taking a Devil's Advocate position in the post you quoted; I probably should not have selected either route in the poll. The alternate route is actually slightly better in trying to reconcile The Hobbit with The Lord of the Rings, but it places the Troll-camp too close to the Ford of Bruinen. It makes the pace of Thorin and Company from the Trolls' lair to Rivendell ridiculously slow, that it took them five days to cover about fifty miles. But it makes even less sense to suppose that Aragorn led the hobbits around for most of a week with a seriously injured Frodo just to cover only a handful of miles towards their destination.

If I am forced to choose then change my vote to Route #2, but it should really be 'None of the Above'.


(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Nov 5 2017, 5:25am)


Bracegirdle
Valinor


Nov 5 2017, 5:56pm

Post #15 of 44 (956 views)
Shortcut
Another attempt [In reply to] Can't Post

They cross the Last Bridge on Oct. 13 [Tale of Years], early morning [text]. They head north.
They meet Glofindel on Oct. 18 - dusk [Tale of Years]. This gives them approximately six days from the crossing of the Bridge to meeting Glorfindel.

They are exactly two days with Glorfindel, from dusk Oct. 18, till Oct. 20 [Tale of Years], late afternoon or dusk [text].

Remembering that it's about one-hundred miles from the Bridge to the Ford: The text tells us they traveled slightly less than twenty miles on Oct. 19th, which means they traveled approximately 40 miles during the two days with Glorfindel. This puts them approximately sixty miles east of the Last Bridge to the meeting with Glorfindel, and about six days to make those sixty miles, and two more days to reach the Ford of Bruinen.

If they jogged four or five days nearly straight north and then cut south towards the Road this would leave them well short of the sixty miles they must travel eastward to the meeting with Glorfindel. Thus they must have traveled but one or two days north (maximum) and then turned east for the remaining four or five days.

I.e. I'll stick with my map above, and choose Ms. Fonstads 'alternate' (#2) route (even though I think it too takes them too far north away from the Road). Most of their travel during these six days had to be eastward!

It doesn't matter whether we use the large fold-out map or Fonstad's map, they both indicate about 100 miles Bridge to Ford. I think I got my fold-out map in an old hardback copy of RotK - but not sure.


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Nov 5 2017, 6:33pm

Post #16 of 44 (945 views)
Shortcut
It works well for LotR... [In reply to] Can't Post

...the route just doesn't work with The Hobbit unless we speculate that Bilbo wasn't taking good notes at the time and his memory betrayed him on certain details. Maybe it took Gandalf several tries to find the hidden entrance to the valley so that the company was on the road for longer than they would have been if he had found it right away.

That is not a great answer, but I think it's better than the alternatives (unless we want to posit that Elrond has placed some sort of enchantment of confusion on the Road).


(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Nov 5 2017, 6:37pm)


Bracegirdle
Valinor


Nov 5 2017, 6:39pm

Post #17 of 44 (937 views)
Shortcut
Considering these 3 facts: [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
If I am forced to choose then change my vote to Route #2, but it should really be 'None of the Above'.


1. It's about 100 miles from the Last Bridge to the Ford of Rivendell [maps]
2. On Oct. 13 they cross the Last Bridge (TY). Early a.m. (text)
3. On Oct. 18 they meet Glorfindel on the Road - dusk (TY), 60 miles east of the Bridge and six days to make the trip.

I wonder how many others would care to change their votes? Fess up! Angelic

Oops! I haven't voted yet, but shall now do so. Smile


tinkermarm
Bree


Nov 6 2017, 10:42pm

Post #18 of 44 (887 views)
Shortcut
I think I may have an answer...or something to muddy the waters a little more... [In reply to] Can't Post

It seems to me, if I am reading the Atlas correctly, that it's actually missing something in the chart (the same one that is on the Eowyn Challenge website): the 22 miles between the attack at the Ford and Rivendell. According to the map, they appear to have actually covered 40 miles on the 19th instead of the 18 in the chart.

Thoughts on that in relation to all the rest of this that we've been discussing?


tinkermarm
Bree


Nov 6 2017, 10:43pm

Post #19 of 44 (885 views)
Shortcut
But is there an error in the Atlas? [In reply to] Can't Post

See my response above for what I'm talking about.

Those are good points, and I'm definitely leaning more toward the alternate route for now, but maybe we're all off by 22 miles because of a typo/mis-add?


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Nov 6 2017, 10:50pm

Post #20 of 44 (883 views)
Shortcut
Did they push on? [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
It seems to me, if I am reading the Atlas correctly, that it's actually missing something in the chart (the same one that is on the Eowyn Challenge website): the 22 miles between the attack at the Ford and Rivendell. According to the map, they appear to have actually covered 40 miles on the 19th instead of the 18 in the chart.

Thoughts on that in relation to all the rest of this that we've been discussing?


I would have to check, but did Aragorn and the others push on through the one night without stopping? So, no campsite, and 40 miles over 2 days? 20 miles per day is about the best speed you can expect to average on foot traveling on easy ground or a good road.


(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Nov 6 2017, 10:55pm)


tinkermarm
Bree


Nov 6 2017, 11:13pm

Post #21 of 44 (868 views)
Shortcut
Or did they cover more ground to begin with? [In reply to] Can't Post

If we take the charts in the Atlas instead of the Eowyn Challenge site, there's actually different mileage for that alternate route. This puts most of the progress made each day at approximately 10 miles each day, which shortens their distances on the 18th and 19th tremendously. This seems a little more likely to me, but still does not account for that 22 miles from the Ford to Rivendell.


Bracegirdle
Valinor


Nov 7 2017, 1:41am

Post #22 of 44 (854 views)
Shortcut
After meeting w/ Glorfindel [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
It seems to me, if I am reading the Atlas correctly, that it's actually missing something in the chart (the same one that is on the Eowyn Challenge website): the 22 miles between the attack at the Ford and Rivendell.


But I have been responding to your original post which references only the path from the Last Bridge to the Ford, and not from the Ford to Rivendell. I'll have to check that out.


In Reply To
they appear to have actually covered 40 miles on the 19th instead of the 18 in the chart.


Quote
Glorfindel still urged them on, and only allowed two brief halts during the day's march. In this way they covered almost twenty miles before nightfall . . . it was plain that the hobbits could go no further that night.

This was on Oct. 19th, and it seems from this about 20 miles per trek was the best the Hobbits could muster.

And now a confession, as I have been waiting for someone to catch my timeline error: Their time w/ Glorfindel (to the Ford) was just about exactly 2 days, dusk Oct. 18 - late P.M. Oct. 20. BUT THEY MADE 3 MARCHES NOT 2 AS I WRONGLY ASSUMED as I had the two days locked in my mind.

1. First march, Oct. 18/19, dusk till near dawn.

Quote
Not until the grey of dawn [19th] did he [Glorfindel) allow them to halt. ... The sun had now climbed far into the morning . . . They had rested rather less than five hours when they took to the Road again.

2. Second march, Oct. 19. They took to the Road sometime around mid-morning and had 2 brief halts making almost 20 miles before nightfall. (This is as far as the Hobbits could go.)

3. Third march, Oct. 20.

Quote
... they set out again early next morning. There were many miles yet to go between them and the Ford. ... late afternoon they came to a place where the Road went suddenly uner the dark shadow to tall pine-trees ... [and they came to] a long flat mile, and beyond that the Ford of Rivendell.

This could indicate nearly a full day's (20 miles) trek, or somewhat less, but likely close to dusk by the time Frodo reached the Ford.

Sooo, must we back up the meeting place with Glorfindel closer to the Last Bridge? Most likely it seems. And the more northerly route from the Last Bridge gains appeal.

All in all this is ALL somewhat speculative. Sorry we can't be more concrete... Evil


Bracegirdle
Valinor


Nov 7 2017, 2:13am

Post #23 of 44 (851 views)
Shortcut
And . . . [In reply to] Can't Post

Even if they walked (the maximum) 20 miles in three treks this would still put them well short of Fonstad's 'original' route which indicates about 17-18 miles east of the Bridge.

If our 100 miles total Bridge to Ford is near correct they would be 40 miles east of the Bridge upon meeting w/ Glorfindel. Or 60 miles west of the Ford.


tinkermarm
Bree


Nov 9 2017, 2:56am

Post #24 of 44 (773 views)
Shortcut
I estimate 76 miles from their meeting with Glorfindel [In reply to] Can't Post

That's based off of the alternate route, and adding the 22 miles from the Ford to Rivendell that seem to be left out of the table. Here's a chart I set up with the different mileages (differing distances are highlighted in orange):

https://docs.google.com/...rog/edit?usp=sharing

Your input so far has been invaluable, and I especially really appreciate the quotes to go along with it! If you have any thoughts about that missing 22 miles and these estimates, I'd love to hear them as well. :)


grammaboodawg
Immortal


Nov 9 2017, 5:01am

Post #25 of 44 (765 views)
Shortcut
Here are some maps [In reply to] Can't Post

One of the first books I got was "The Journey of Frodo" by Barbara Stratchey. I use a few of them in my TIME posts (need to redo ;). She was not a scholar of Tolkien, but she loved the books and put together her interpretation of the map references from the story of Frodo in The Lord of the Rings. She does a little write-up of how she put each section of the map together. As you turn the page, there's a separate section of the map... and the next page continues where the previous left off until you complete the journey.

Here's a link to an index of most of those pages.. Click on "more" to go to the next set of maps. The right-click properties indicate Fonstad, but it is Stratchey's work.

Here are the specific maps from
Bree to Weathertop;
Weathertop to Trollshaws
Trollshaws to Meeting Glorfindel to Rivendell

First page Previous page 1 2 Next page Last page  View All
 
 

Search for (options) Powered by Gossamer Forum v.1.2.3

home | advertising | contact us | back to top | search news | join list | Content Rating

This site is maintained and updated by fans of The Lord of the Rings, and is in no way affiliated with Tolkien Enterprises or the Tolkien Estate. We in no way claim the artwork displayed to be our own. Copyrights and trademarks for the books, films, articles, and other promotional materials are held by their respective owners and their use is allowed under the fair use clause of the Copyright Law. Design and original photography however are copyright © 1999-2012 TheOneRing.net. Binary hosting provided by Nexcess.net

Do not follow this link, or your host will be blocked from this site. This is a spider trap.