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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
How to fix PJ nazgul tomb plot.

Victariongreyjoy
Rivendell


Oct 13 2017, 2:16am

Post #1 of 6 (1083 views)
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How to fix PJ nazgul tomb plot. Can't Post

I know how this movieverse canon of the nazgul can be resolved:
The wraiths in their non-physical forms have been around since the fall of Arnor. When Lindon and Gondor attacked and destroyed Carn Dum, Earnur chased The Witch King. His physical body was destroyed by the king, but his wraith form escaped. Glorfindel then came with the prophecy and stopped Earnur from pursuing the WK. WK escaped and returned to Mordor.
There Sauron sends him and the other nazgul to attack Minas Ithil. The orc army was lead by a black numenorean, but the WK whispers his strategy to him. Uses him as a puppet.
The black numenorean puppet then sends a emisarry to Minas Tirith, mocking Earnur for his failure of losing Minas Ithil and the fortress turning into Minas Morgul. Filled with pride and wrath, Earnur rode out with a small elite batallion to face this unamed black numenorean and never returned.


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Oct 13 2017, 2:47am

Post #2 of 6 (1070 views)
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The Tombs at the High Fells [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi again! I've addressed this and similar issues a few times with the goal of altering Tolkien's "Tale of Years" as little as possible. This is my solution:

1974 ... End of the North-kingdom. The Witch-king overruns Arthedain and takes Fornost.
1975 ... King Arvedui of Arthedain drowned in the Bay of Forochel. The Witch-king is nearly defeated at the Battle of Fornost until the rest of the Nine come to his defense. The Kingdom of Angmar is pushed back, but persists for another five centuries. At some time between 1975 and 2300 Angmar makes war upon the Woodland Realm and the Elf-queen is killed in Gundabad.
2050 ... King Eärnur of Gondor rides out of Minas Ithil to answer the challenge of the Witch-king and is presumed killed.
2340 ... The Wood-elf Tauriel born.
2463 ... The White Council is formed. The Nine are defeated by the Dúnedain (possibly with the aid of the Wise) and are entombed at the High Fells in Rhudaur. About this time Déagol the Stoor finds the One Ring and is murdered by Sméagol.

It is possible that instead of being killed outright, Eärnur was captured, tormented, and possibly turned into a lesser Wraith through the use of a Morgul-knife.

"Who I am is where I stand. Where I stand is where I fall.” -- The Doctor


Victariongreyjoy
Rivendell


Oct 13 2017, 5:30am

Post #3 of 6 (1044 views)
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Destruction of Carn Dum and the nazgul capturing of Minas Ithil [In reply to] Can't Post

I like your explanation a lot. But I have some questions: When the White council and the Dunedain defeated the Nine, Angmar was destroyed as well? What about the armies of elves and men from Gondor and Lindon? And the retaking of Minas Ithil in T.A 2002 never happened in this movieverse?


(This post was edited by Victariongreyjoy on Oct 13 2017, 5:33am)


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Oct 13 2017, 7:24am

Post #4 of 6 (1032 views)
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Fall of Angmar [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
I like your explanation a lot. But I have some questions: When the White council and the Dunedain defeated the Nine, Angmar was destroyed as well? What about the armies of elves and men from Gondor and Lindon? And the retaking of Minas Ithil in T.A 2002 never happened in this movieverse?


I do imagine the capture of Minas Ithil as still taking place in 2002, I just didn't put in on the timeline. However, I also have Angmar survive for several centuries as its fall in the films seems to trigger Elrond's four hundred years of watchful peace. I SHOULD have had King Eärnur departing from MINAS ANOR; that was my mistake! It should have read:

2002 ... The Nazgûl capture Minas Ithil; Sauron takes possession of the Ithil-stone. The fortress is renamed Minas Morgul.
2050 ... King Eärnur of Gondor rides out of Minas Anor to answer the challenge of the Witch-king and is presumed killed.

Because the defeat of the Nine occurs much later, Gondor would probably not have involved itself, though the Elves of Lindon and Rivendell would likely have taken part in the fight.

"Who I am is where I stand. Where I stand is where I fall.” -- The Doctor

(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Oct 13 2017, 7:30am)


Victariongreyjoy
Rivendell


Oct 13 2017, 2:17pm

Post #5 of 6 (1007 views)
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The line of Kings [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To

In Reply To
I like your explanation a lot. But I have some questions: When the White council and the Dunedain defeated the Nine, Angmar was destroyed as well? What about the armies of elves and men from Gondor and Lindon? And the retaking of Minas Ithil in T.A 2002 never happened in this movieverse?


I do imagine the capture of Minas Ithil as still taking place in 2002, I just didn't put in on the timeline. However, I also have Angmar survive for several centuries as its fall in the films seems to trigger Elrond's four hundred years of watchful peace. I SHOULD have had King Eärnur departing from MINAS ANOR; that was my mistake! It should have read:

2002 ... The Nazgûl capture Minas Ithil; Sauron takes possession of the Ithil-stone. The fortress is renamed Minas Morgul.
2050 ... King Eärnur of Gondor rides out of Minas Anor to answer the challenge of the Witch-king and is presumed killed.

Because the defeat of the Nine occurs much later, Gondor would probably not have involved itself, though the Elves of Lindon and Rivendell would likely have taken part in the fight.


Thanks for filling in the informations I asked for.
I would do add to the situation, when Angmar were pushed back in T.A 1975, maybe Elrond, Earnur and Glorfindel marched to Arnor to save the kingdom, but was too late. They managed to drive the army of Angmar back and the WK suffer a major defeat, but not destroyed yet. But seriously, you should send this to WB if they decide to make a movie about the rise of Angmar.
There is one thing I always wondered: In FOTR, Elrond said to Gandalf: ''And Ilsidur tok the ring. The line of kings were broken''. Does that mean Ilsidur were the last king of men? Or should we not take that quote too literally?


(This post was edited by Victariongreyjoy on Oct 13 2017, 2:20pm)


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Oct 13 2017, 4:34pm

Post #6 of 6 (995 views)
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The Line of Kings [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
There is one thing I always wondered: In FOTR, Elrond said to Gandalf: ''And Ilsidur tok the ring. The line of kings were broken''. Does that mean Ilsidur were the last king of men? Or should we not take that quote too literally?


I don't think we should take that statement literally. The line of the Kings of Gondor survived until the death (undeath?) of Eärnur. The Northern Line was thought to have ended with King Arvedui (though it actually lived on through the Rangers of the North).

"Who I am is where I stand. Where I stand is where I fall.” -- The Doctor

 
 

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