I would always rather try to wring the juice out of a single sentence, or explore the implications of one word than try to sum up a period in a lecture, or pot a poet in a paragraph [..] But I am, as I say, an amateur. And if that means that I have neglected parts of my large field, devoting myself mainly to those things that I personally like, it does also mean that I have tried to awake liking, to communicate delight in those things that I find enjoyable. (“Valedictory Address”).
I find myself in complete agreement with this attitude, almost always more interested in – or at least, more captivated by – individual words or turns of phrase than in larger patterns. And to that end, I have a series of words and phrases in mind, and I’d like us to try to collectively wring some of the juice out of them in this installment. Likewise, I am definitely an amateur (in both the literal and etymological sense), and if I too seem to neglect parts of a large chapter or overlook your own individual favorite words and phrases, please don’t hesitate to bring them up!
1. Ent.
Many of you may have read a bit about Tolkien’s own explanation for the emergence of this word from The Wanderer: “They owe their name to the eald enta geweorc of Anglo-Saxon, and their connexion with stone” (Letters #163). There is also the Old English word eoten, referring to a giant, troll, or other monster (e.g., Grendel). Tolkien incorporated this word into his Ettenmoors/Ettendales, which in draft he referred to as “Entish Lands.” In another letter (#157), Tolkien wrote: “I always felt that something ought to be done about the peculiar A[nglo] Saxon word ent for a ‘giant’ or mighty person of long ago — to whom all old works were ascribed.”
This brings us back to the Troll/Ent connection, where Trolls are essentially a mockery of Ents, and both are basically subtypes of giant. The Black Speech word for Troll even appears to be a mockery of the Sindarin word for Ent – olog, from onod. Interestingly, both are pretty close to the Sindarin word for mountain – orod. Is that accidental? In The Treason of Isengard, Tolkien says in a note that trolls are “stone inhabited by goblin-spirit.” Is this true to his conception, and if so, what does it say about the relationship to Ents? Are Ents, perhaps in their conception, trees inhabited by Elf-spirits? Squire alluded in the previous topic to Tolkien’s idea (and the problems that come along with it) that Ents could be trees inhabited by Ainur. What do you think Ents really are?
How close do you feel these species are? What do you make of the apparent substitution of mountains for trees as the domains of each? Looking at the quotation from Tolkien’s second letter above, has he in indeed “done something about” the word? What about the “old works ascribed to” those *ents of the Anglo-Saxon tradition? The Ents of Middle-earth don’t seem to be doers of “old works” in the same way. What do you think of Tolkien’s taking the idea for them both out of Old English language and literature? Darkstone asked yesterday, “is the word as same as the reality to Tolkien?” Is it?
And by the way, there is also the Latin entia “beings” (related to the mother of all verbs: “to be”) – so far as I know, no one has put this forth as a possible external etymology for Ent. What do you think of this idea? Does it work or not?
2. Derndingle.
A dingle is a small, wooded dell or valley. It’s one of those many decrepit words Tolkien kept alive long after its time. The element dern means “secret(ive), hidden” (cf. Déagol), yet the Derndingle (“Secret Dell”) was apparently well enough known by Treebeard’s neighbors as to have a Mannish name. What do you make of that apparent contradiction? Given its meaning, is there a hint of a connection to Rivendell?
There also seems to be a hint of the name Dernhelm (basically “Secret Mask”) that Éowyn will adopt later. Is there any possible relationship between Fangorn and/or what it represents in the novel and Éowyn?
Finally, the original drafts have Dernslade as a possible name for the dingle. The word slade has basically the same meaning as dingle (cf. Tolkien’s “Nomenclature”), but is even more dead than dingle. What do you think of Tolkien’s change? There is one surviving reference to a ‘slade’ that I can recall. In “The Battle of the Pelennor Fields”, as stock is taken of the fallen, we read of a certain Grimbold of Grimslade. Where is Grimslade? Why did Tolkien retain the more archaic element in a younger land, but ditch it as a name for a much older place?
3. Treegarth.
Yes, I know this word comes from “Many Partings” and I’m sort of cheating, but I think I can hazard a guess that the word wouldn’t get quite the same treatment there (too much else to talk about!), and the discussion works well here, so I’m stealing it. ;)
In the invocation to Elbereth, we find the Sindarin phrase galadhremmin ennorath, which Tolkien himself glosses as “tree-woven lands of Middle-earth.” This has always struck me as highly significant. Of all the ways to describe Middle-earth, the Elves choose “tree-woven,” hrum, hooom. Middle-earth itself comes from the Old English middan-geard (literally, “middle-yard, middle-garth”, related to middan-eard, which is more literally “middle-earth”). The Old Norse equivalent is miðgarðr, modernized as Midgard – anyone here ever play MUDs, representing one of Tolkien’s early impacts on gaming (after Dungeons & Dragons)? The element geard/garðr is also the second element of Isengard, which literally means “iron-yard.” Is this appropriate for Saruman’s abode?
A garth is a yard or garden (both words are etymologically related). It’s also a well-known Tolkien scholar, subtype John, but I digress. ;) So, considering the Treegarth of Orthanc to which Treebeard later refers – does this image of the trees overcoming a more artificial environment (an “iron-yard” becomes a “tree-yard”) have significance? Are the “tree-woven lands of Middle-earth” really the center of the world? Looking at a map of Middle-earth of the Third Age, Fangorn is pretty close to dead-center (not quite, but nearly). (What’s dead-center in the map of Beleriand?) Is Treebeard’s choice of the archaic word garth meant to echo the second element of Middle-earth? At least, for those willing to dig into the leaf-mould? Is Tolkien saying that the single most important thing about Middle-earth – on some level, what defines it – is “the forest primeval”?
4. Besom.
A besom is a witch’s broomstick. When Treebeard got all worked up by the hobbits’ tale, he “raised himself from his bed with a jerk, stood up, and thumped his hand on the table. The vessels of light trembled and sent up two jets of flame. There was a flicker like green fire in his eyes, and his beard stood out stiff as a great besom.”
This is a striking word! What do you make of it here? Its folkloric connection to witches, druids, and their covens? (And nowadays, an afterimage of the Harry Potter variety is inevitable.)
Darkstone told us yesterday: “Three is the number of the Norns, the number of Wyrd, or Fate. Birches are magical. Bfarkan (or twigs of birch) are used to make divining runes. (‘Having bound up the threatening twigs of birch’: Measure For Measure, Act I, Scene 3) Witches make their broomsticks from birch. The birch was associated with the Norse gods Thor and Freya.”
We’ll dig into sources a bit more tomorrow, but for now, comments on the connection implied by Tolkien’s use of besom?
5. Moot.
This is now one of the most widely adopted of Tolkien’s words, along with ent, hobbit, orc, and a few others. In his Etymological Dictionary, Skeat has moot (a real word) = “to discuss or argue a case”, “little used,” except in “a moot point.” That is, the attested form is a verb (in “moot point,” the form is participial). Tolkien brought the word into widespread use as a noun, basically as a variant of meet(ing). Any thoughts on that? Is Tolkien making the Ent-moot a thing more than an action? Do any of you use this word regularly? Why do you think it’s been so much more successfully resurrected than other words Tolkien rescued from oblivion?
Even more interesting, we’ve actually seen the word moot before. Long before entering Fangorn. Anyone recall where? Opinions on the significance of that connection?
6. Rowan.
Bregalad waxes nostalgic over the loss of his most beloved of trees, the Rowans, whom he calls “the People of the Rose.” Do you know whether this implied etymology is correct? (Hint: I wouldn’t be asking if it were that simple, now would I?) What is Tolkien up to here? Folk etymology? Linguistic jest? A “serious” attempt to bury some kind of folkloric history in a single, seemingly unimportant phrase? Bregalad tells us they were planted “to try and please the Entwives.” Could there be any connection to Sam’s ‘Entwife’ Rose, waiting patiently back in the Shire? What about a Rowan connection to Mr. Bean? – Orson or Sean, of course! (Just kidding!)
7. And one to grow on ...
The chapter contains some of Tolkien’s cleverest writing, I think. We find a surprising wealth of “growing” words and phrases, echoing the idea of the growth of trees and forests, but used in novel ways (again, pardon the pun). Some are more obvious similes; others are quite subtle – e.g., “roots of the mountains” (cf. William Morris), “or even Pip” (the only occurrence of “Pip” in the novel), “rose steadily through every limb”, “up sprout a little folk”, “songs like treesbear fruit only in their own time and their own way”, “the shade of a whisper as of many drifting leaves” ...
What do you think of Tolkien’s metaphorical expressions in the chapter? How successful are they? Certainly, we can imagine they were all deliberate (or perhaps just beneath conscious, but “intentional” nonetheless). Has he overdone it, littering them untidily throughout his prose (like Fangorn itself)? Are there other chapters where Tolkien does something similar – as in the other “forest” chapters – or perhaps elsewhere, pursuing a different metaphor?
Well, tradition says that the Menzies clan plucked rowan branches from Birnam Wood on their way to visit MacBeth.... I prefer Tolkien's marching forest. His is wayyyy cooler! =)
Then again, maybe I just don't like talk about trees? Because I love 'The Shadow of the Past' & 'The Council of Elrond' & those two chapters are very long & are all talking too, but are all history (but I'm a history buff).
You reaction is interesting, because
[In reply to]
Can't Post
I skimmed quickly through most of the battle scenes in my 25 readings over the past four decades, though I did force myself to read them a few times. I find them boring. But the "up hill and down dale" stuff (as one Tolkien virgin called it once) is what I love most about the books. The descriptions of Fangorn are as sustaining to me as a draught of Entwash.
But then, when I read "War and Peace" as a child I skipped most of the War part... ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "For DORA BAGGINS in memory of a LONG correspondence, with love from Bilbo; on a large wastebasket. Dora was Drogo's sister, and the eldest surviving female relative of Bilbo and Frodo; she was ninety-nine, and had written reams of good advice for more than half a century." ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "A Chance Meeting at Rivendell" and other stories
leleni at hotmail dot com ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
(This post was edited by Aunt Dora Baggins on Apr 29 2008, 8:39pm)
it was Tolkien's disappointment with the way that prophecy was fullfilled that led him to write the scene with the Huorns. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "For DORA BAGGINS in memory of a LONG correspondence, with love from Bilbo; on a large wastebasket. Dora was Drogo's sister, and the eldest surviving female relative of Bilbo and Frodo; she was ninety-nine, and had written reams of good advice for more than half a century." ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "A Chance Meeting at Rivendell" and other stories
leleni at hotmail dot com ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Nothing moot about that word, said Bernard to Miss Bianca
[In reply to]
Can't Post
I remember as a boy coming across the Moot Hall of the English mice in the Rescuers series, and recognizing its relationship to Tolkien's "Entmoot". Nor, given the English authenticity of the books, did I imagine that Margery Sharp had lifted the word from The Lord of the Rings.
The Moot Hall, as a kind of town hall, seems to be a common usage of the word in England. Whether or not the word itself is commonly used anymore, Tolkien probably did not invent its noun form, which seems to have been pretty well established quite a few centuries ago.
Treebeard's use of the word in "Entmoot" is just good old English: an archaic word, but not an absolutely obsolete one, as is so often the case with Tolkien's vocabulary.
...to the work of a writer especially moved by a passion for linguistics and trees (both things that he himself confessed to loving significantly beyond the norm.) Perhaps, then, a better question might be, "What do you love so deeply about Middle Earth that you have become one of the predominant posters here, despite differing so notably from the author?" My website http://www.dreamdeer.grailmedia.com offers fanfic, and message-boards regarding intentional community or faerie exploration.
I may have been overplaying my hand when I said that "Tolkien brought the word into widespread use as a noun," as its use as a noun was pretty widespread once upon a time. What I should have written was "Tolkien brought the word into widespread modern use as a noun" – and perhaps even that would still be overstating things. Do we have any Brits here? Is moot still encountered in the original (non-Tolkienian) sense?
I didn't mention it before, either, but those who know their English history find moot in the final element of Witenagemot (with several variant spellings), a sort of political assembly in Anglo-Saxon England. Any Potterphiles here? Some of you might recall that J.K. Rowling cleverly played on this with her Wizengamot, a political assembly in the wizarding world. Jason Fisher Lingwë - Musings of a Fish
The Lord of the Rings discussion 2007-2008 – The Two Towers – III.4 “Treebeard” – Part 1, 2
The Dictionary of the Scots Language (www.dsl.ac.uk) gives us:
ENT, v. To regard, look after, notice, obey, heed ... [Norw. dial., O.N. enta, to regard, heed, notice.]
and
Ent, to heed; care for something, to ent onyting; he never ented it. ... Aint, to tend, look after someone, heed. [O.N. enta, v., to regard, heed, notice, look after; Norw. enta, id. See ANT.]
Mostly Pellanor Fields, although I enjoy them all, I guess just Helm's Deep is a little tough because I struggle with picturing everything - where the Deep is, the Hornburg, etc. The movie didn't help me much. We (my son & I) just read that last night in fact.
I enjoy all the historical stuff, Appendices too.
The descriptions of Fangorn are as sustaining to me as a draught of Entwash.
Interestingly, I find the long passages without any dialogue to be tough (at least reading them aloud to my son which I'm doing now).
Not sure where you're going with the hint about the etymology of "rowan" not being that simple; hope to find out!! But rowans are part of the Rosaceae family which includes many (??all) fruit trees, too, like apples and plums. See here for infor about rowans in Europe and the UK.
So clearly the Entwives who preferred more "cultivated" and ordered trees and orchards would prefer the Rosaceae family for many reasons I can think of.
However a rose as symbolic of romantic love is at least as old as the Middle Ages in Europe ("Romance of the Rose", etc). Which wraps up nicely with the Ent/Entwife Sam/Rosie connection!!
a.s. "an seileachan"
"It doesn't happen all at once," said the Skin Horse. "You become. It takes a long time. That's why it doesn't happen often to people who break easily, or have sharp edges, or who have to be carefully kept. Generally, by the time you are Real, most of your hair has been loved off, and your eyes drop out and you get loose in the joints and very shabby. But these things don't matter at all, because once you are Real you can't be ugly, except to people who don't understand."
"I suppose you are real?" said the Rabbit. And then he wished he had not said it, for he thought the Skin Horse might be sensitive.
so, "Ent" really means, er..."Enting"? cool!! //
[In reply to]
Can't Post
"an seileachan"
"It doesn't happen all at once," said the Skin Horse. "You become. It takes a long time. That's why it doesn't happen often to people who break easily, or have sharp edges, or who have to be carefully kept. Generally, by the time you are Real, most of your hair has been loved off, and your eyes drop out and you get loose in the joints and very shabby. But these things don't matter at all, because once you are Real you can't be ugly, except to people who don't understand."
"I suppose you are real?" said the Rabbit. And then he wished he had not said it, for he thought the Skin Horse might be sensitive.
They're in the family Rosaceae, which of course also includes roses, so they are indeed "People of the Rose" in an even deeper sense than etymologically (as opposed to entomologically :-))
And a nice snippet from the OED, from a herbal of 1548:
"The seconde kynde [of sorbus] is called..in Englishe a rountree or a Quicken tree." (Bolding mine)
Looking a bit further, I found that "Quickbeam" is one of the many folknames for the rowan. So it's not just because he talks quickly :-)
In folklore, the rowan has the reputation of protecting against malevolent magic. The berries also have healing qualities. It's not only one of the loveliest of trees, it's also highly useful. My writing (including The Passing of Mistress Rose)
Do we find happiness so often that we should turn it off the box when it happens to sit there?
I love "things that look like Ents but 'ent'".
[In reply to]
Can't Post
Not that Tolkien writes it that way. <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> We're discussingThe Lord of the Rings in the Reading Room, Oct. 15, 2007 - Mar. 22, 2009!
It's a mute point, as they say around here
[In reply to]
Can't Post
visualweasal wrote:
Quote
In his Etymological Dictionary, Skeat has moot (a real word) = “to discuss or argue a case”, “little used,” except in “a moot point.
I'll admit that this definition gave me pause, because I'm used to thinking of "a moot point" as meaning irrelevant, hypothetical, or otherwise not worth discussing. This is probably due to this sketch which aired on Saturday Night Live during my formative years:
I imagine that episode influenced a lot of people, since I don't recall ever hearing the word before that aired, but I've heard it plenty since. However, "moot" has now mutated into "mute" because of all the people who didn't even get the bad education in the word that I had (including one of my husband's co-workers and also someone who writes for the local newspaper). With the incorrect definition I was using, "mute" actually makes just as much sense. After all, if something is irrelevant or not worth discussing, we might as well not say anything about it at all.
That being said, "moot" meaning "meeting" is one of my favorite Tolkien words and I use the word that way regularly now with TORnadoes and even occasionally among "normals", hoping that it will catch on. It probably will, in a small way. It will be cool and ironic to say "we're going to a moot" or "having a moot". And then gradually people will instead start to say they're going to a "mute".
that when I read LotR out loud to my kids, who were 9 and 5 at the time, they begged me skip not only the Council of Elrond but some of the descriptions, and I did. But I do enjoy those descriptions myself. When I'm hiking in my beloved Rocky Mountain National Park, I often am reminded of places in LotR. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "For DORA BAGGINS in memory of a LONG correspondence, with love from Bilbo; on a large wastebasket. Dora was Drogo's sister, and the eldest surviving female relative of Bilbo and Frodo; she was ninety-nine, and had written reams of good advice for more than half a century." ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "A Chance Meeting at Rivendell" and other stories
leleni at hotmail dot com ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I always thought "moot point" meant that the point of one's argument was already won by previous discussion/experience/legal decision, etc. The argument might be wholly sound but it makes no effective difference. Like a discussion about what I feel the colors of the American flag should be; I may have very compelling arguments for my point, but it's moot because the colors have already been established.
But I never stopped to think about how a term that means "meeting" or "to meet" ("moot") could turn into that other definition. I suppose in one sense a "moot point" would be one that has already been determined by a moot. So we "moot" this week down at the local city hall and come to a decision; next week someone argues convincingly for something but we tell them their point is "moot" because last week we already argued it in our moot and came to a decision.
Something like that? I ask the linguists among us.
Google searching brings up this interesting short answer. I actually have this web site saved in my favorites but keep forgetting it!!
a.s. "an seileachan"
"It doesn't happen all at once," said the Skin Horse. "You become. It takes a long time. That's why it doesn't happen often to people who break easily, or have sharp edges, or who have to be carefully kept. Generally, by the time you are Real, most of your hair has been loved off, and your eyes drop out and you get loose in the joints and very shabby. But these things don't matter at all, because once you are Real you can't be ugly, except to people who don't understand."
"I suppose you are real?" said the Rabbit. And then he wished he had not said it, for he thought the Skin Horse might be sensitive.
1
