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Eruonen
Half-elven
Sep 19 2017, 1:31am
Post #51 of 90
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We also learn of the other Dwarf lines - that they exist - but are not really mentioned
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apart from Durin's line. These other kingdoms one must assume were based in the various mountain ranges....but they are not specified. They came together for the Battle of Azanulzibar.
"(Firebeards and Broadbeams from the Blue Mountains, and others from the far East of Middle-earth)"
http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Battle_of_Azanulbizar
I wonder about the far east kingdoms and their location to the Easterlings etc.
(This post was edited by Eruonen on Sep 19 2017, 1:40am)
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Sep 19 2017, 3:25am
Post #53 of 90
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The Dwarves of the Blue Mountains
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"Longbeards, Firebeards, Broadbeams, Ironfists, Stonefoots, Blacklocks, and Stiffbeards."....
Yes, and presumably the Firebeards and Broadbeams made up the Dwarves of Nogrod and Belegost in the Ered Luin who migrated to Khazad-dûm after their cities were flooded at the end of the First Age. Appendix A tells us that others of those Houses remained primarily in the southern Blue Mountains where they still had working mines. Tolkien's early versions of his tales of the First Age placed the Longbeards in the Blue Mountains long before the rise and fall of Erebor, but he seems to have abandoned that idea in the end.
"Who I am is where I stand. Where I stand is where I fall.” -- The Doctor
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Eruonen
Half-elven
Sep 19 2017, 6:39pm
Post #54 of 90
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Some closing Appendix A tidbits
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Peter Jackson used more of the material in the Hobbit films than maybe many people realized...he just used the info differently - with different characters and times.
For example, Thrain is hunted by the emissaries of Sauron...wolves...orcs...evil birds. This was to recover his ring.
However, it makes sense for PJ to have the same scenario for Thorin. Sauron would not want an heir to Durin's line to live. Another potential foe in the future to get rid of now.
Gandalf and Thorin meet up in Bree...."A chance meeting, as we say in Middle-Earth." Wink, wink
A few sentences about the concurrent battles in the North during the War of the Ring as Sauron assaulted Erebor and Dale with the result of both King Dain and King Brand falling in battle.
We learn of Dis and other female dwarves....indicated to represent about 30% of the population - which has adverse effects on population growth and I assume jealousy. Another reason for dwarves to be grumpy.
Gimli becomes Lord of the Glittering Caves and worked in Gondor and Rohan, even Mithril gates for Minas Tirith. Break that Grond!
Legolas and other kin actually lived in Ithilien - which was Faramir's territory - and it became the fairest land.
After Elessar dies, Legolas departs over the Sea....possibly with Gimli.
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Eruonen
Half-elven
Sep 22 2017, 2:26am
Post #55 of 90
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Appendix B - Tale of Years etc.
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If I recall correctly, are the Istari sent with instructions not to oppose Sauron with power due to the ongoing punishment of mankind via Numenor and the elves from the kinslaying? In effect, the Valar are saying, we will send some help but are leaving Middle Earth to its "fate"? I am trying to recall, without looking up, why they left Sauron to run free.
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Sep 22 2017, 2:43am
Post #56 of 90
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I'm not sure that the prohibition to take direct action had as much to do with the Change of the World and the Fall of Númenor as it had to do with the War of Wrath and the destruction of Beleriand. The Fall of Morgoth and the resulting cataclysm was brought about directly through the actions of the Valar. Eru was behind the Change of the World and the removal of Aman from Arda.
"Who I am is where I stand. Where I stand is where I fall.” -- The Doctor
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Eruonen
Half-elven
Sep 22 2017, 3:56am
Post #57 of 90
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I was thinking of the disobedience of both men and elves
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Elves for following Feanor and the Numenoreans for sailing West as leading the Valar to limit help and the power of the Istari.
(This post was edited by Eruonen on Sep 22 2017, 3:57am)
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Sep 22 2017, 4:52am
Post #58 of 90
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I was thinking of the disobedience of both men and elves
Elves for following Feanor and the Numenoreans for sailing West as leading the Valar to limit help and the power of the Istari.
I see. No, the limiting of the power of the Istari was not a punishment to Men nor to the Noldor. The Valar deemed the potential cost of opposing Sauron power against power as too high. The loss of Bereriand as a result of the Great Battle had been very painful to the Valar. Think of the myth of the Biblical Flood and God's promise to not repeat it (at least in the same manner).
"Who I am is where I stand. Where I stand is where I fall.” -- The Doctor
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Eruonen
Half-elven
Sep 22 2017, 1:53pm
Post #59 of 90
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True, but Sauron was comparitively a pip squeak
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"When the Númenórean King Ar-Pharazôn attacked Valinor, the Valar relinquished their dominion over Arda and called upon Eru for help. Eru responded by creating an enormous rift between Númenor and the Blessed Realm,...."
Their relinquished dominion may also have been key. Though why Sauron was allowed to run free is another matter.
When did Aragorn first become familiar with Thranduil (and Legolas)? Aragorn brings Gollum to Thranduil for safe keeping. I assume Gandalf introduced them at some time during their 8 year hunt.
http://tolkiengateway.net/...hanging_of_the_World
(This post was edited by Eruonen on Sep 22 2017, 1:54pm)
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Sep 22 2017, 3:27pm
Post #60 of 90
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Subtopic: Aragorn and the Woodland Realm
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When did Aragorn first become familiar with Thranduil (and Legolas)? Aragorn brings Gollum to Thranduil for safe keeping. I assume Gandalf introduced them at some time during their 8 year hunt.
It might have been that late. However, my own suspicion is that Aragorn first visited the Woodland Realm long before that, fairly soon after he first left Imladris in his twentieth year. (TA 2951)--possibly even before he first met and befriended Gandalf (in 2956). Even if Gandalf did make the introductions, this could have happened any time after that first meeting. Again, I expect that Aragorn's first visit to the Thranduil's Halls took place before the time of his journeys and errantries (2957-80).
I would guess, though, that the Elvenking would have been unaware of Aragorn while the Heir of Isildur was being fostered as Estel by Elrond. I'm not sure that Elrond would have shared that secret even with Gandalf; although the wizard might have known of the tradition of the first sons of the chieftains of the Dúnedain being fostered for a time in Rivendell.
"Who I am is where I stand. Where I stand is where I fall.” -- The Doctor
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Eruonen
Half-elven
Sep 22 2017, 3:55pm
Post #61 of 90
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I think he would have to be introduced by someone, either Elrond or Gandalf
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I don't think he would go wandering in Mirkwood and risk getting captured and thrown in a prison cell.
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Sep 22 2017, 4:21pm
Post #62 of 90
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I don't think he would go wandering in Mirkwood and risk getting captured and thrown in a prison cell.
I don't see the young Aragorn as refusing to give an account of himself, though he might have been using a 'traveling name' at the time. We know that he traveled under several names during his great journeys and errantries, notably as Thorongil[/i[ in Gondor.
"Who I am is where I stand. Where I stand is where I fall.” -- The Doctor
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Eruonen
Half-elven
Sep 22 2017, 6:09pm
Post #63 of 90
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Initially, Shadowfax did not allow Gandalf to ride him and Gandalf had to chase after him for a day or two before Shadowfax allowed him to ride.
Both Erebor and Dale eventually came "under the crown and protection of the King of the West." I am a bit surprised that Erebor would become a vassal state of Gondor...though not surprised that Dale was incorporated.
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Sep 22 2017, 6:26pm
Post #64 of 90
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Gandalf and Shadowfax; the North in the Fourth Age
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Initially, Shadowfax did not allow Gandalf to ride him and Gandalf had to chase after him for a day or two before Shadowfax allowed him to ride.
Yep!
Both Erebor and Dale eventually came "under the crown and protection of the King of the West." I am a bit surprised that Erebor would become a vassal state of Gondor...though not surprised that Dale was incorporated.
"Then Bard II, Brand's son, became King in Dale, and Thorin III Stonehelm, Dáin's son, became King under the Mountain. They sent their ambassadors to the crowning of King Elessar; and their realms remained ever after, as long as they lasted, in friendship with Gondor; and they were under the crown and the protection of the King of the West."
I was vaguely aware of all this, though I had not given it much thought. I wonder if Esgaroth remained independent.
"Who I am is where I stand. Where I stand is where I fall.” -- The Doctor
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Eruonen
Half-elven
Sep 22 2017, 6:34pm
Post #65 of 90
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I would think Esgaroth was linked to Dale.
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Maybe not though....
"Esgaroth appears to be a city-state, always independent of Dale, and a republic with no king (the only real republic shown in Middle-earth). The people had always elected from among the old and wise the Master of Lake-town and did "not [endure] the rule of mere fighting men". Wiki
More like Singapore or Hong Kong...Monaco etc.
"The town was wrecked by the dragon, but afterwards it was rebuilt in a different location using some of the treasure that Smaug had stolen, though the town's Master ran off with some of the gold. Part of the town's population followed Bard to resettle the Kingdom of Dale."
Wiki
(This post was edited by Eruonen on Sep 22 2017, 6:37pm)
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InTheChair
Rohan
Sep 23 2017, 7:37pm
Post #66 of 90
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Not sure. Elrond isn't depicted as the travelling type in LotRs or the Hobbit.
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When did Aragorn first become familiar with Thranduil (and Legolas)? Aragorn brings Gollum to Thranduil for safe keeping. I assume Gandalf introduced them at some time during their 8 year hunt.
Aragorn need not have been familiar with Thranduil at all, except to know his name and that he was king of the woodland elves, and known Legolas only after the Counsil of Elrond. Aragorns own words are only that he delivered Gollum to the woodland elves, for so we had agreed.
Doesn't say who we are, most likely he and Gandalf, which probably meant Gandalf set it up with the woodland elves, and Gollum could have been given to the border guards.
On the other hand it's entirely possible they were aquainted. Lots of appeal for fan-fic writers there.
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Eruonen
Half-elven
Sep 23 2017, 8:01pm
Post #67 of 90
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One thing to keep in perspective is that due to their long lives
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if Elrond visited Thranduil 200 years ago is is like last year.
I am sure the elven lords are familiar with each other from past meetings even if they are in human terms long ago. They also seem to remember quite a bit of their lives despite their longevity.
Aragorn would have to have had some familiarity with the realm of Thranduil before delivering Gollum. Either when going off with Elrohir and Elladan who were active companions of the Rangers or with Gandalf who probably arranged things.
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Sep 24 2017, 12:42am
Post #68 of 90
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Did Aragorn already know Thranduil and/or Legolas?
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When did Aragorn first become familiar with Thranduil (and Legolas)? Aragorn brings Gollum to Thranduil for safe keeping. I assume Gandalf introduced them at some time during their 8 year hunt.
Aragorn need not have been familiar with Thranduil at all, except to know his name and that he was king of the woodland elves, and known Legolas only after the Counsil of Elrond. Aragorns own words are only that he delivered Gollum to the woodland elves, for so we had agreed.
Doesn't say who we are, most likely he and Gandalf, which probably meant Gandalf set it up with the woodland elves, and Gollum could have been given to the border guards.
On the other hand it's entirely possible they were aquainted. Lots of appeal for fan-fic writers there.
I think you are right in stating that there is no solid evidence that Aragorn was already acquainted with Legolas before the Council of Elrond, or with Thranduil at all. It does seem more likely than not, though, that Aragorn's travels might have taken him to the Elvenking's court, especially since we do know that he found and captured Gollum and brought him to the Woodland Realm.
"Who I am is where I stand. Where I stand is where I fall.” -- The Doctor
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Eruonen
Half-elven
Sep 24 2017, 2:50pm
Post #69 of 90
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I don't have any comments on Appendix C or D
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If anyone would like to discuss aspects of the family tree or calendar systems please feel free to do so.
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Eruonen
Half-elven
Sep 24 2017, 4:40pm
Post #70 of 90
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Sep 24 2017, 7:49pm
Post #71 of 90
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Mid-year's Day on the Shire Calendar
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If anyone would like to discuss aspects of the family tree or calendar systems please feel free to do so.
From Tolkien's description, Mid-year's Day in the Shire Reckoning should roughly translate to June 21 on our Gregorian calendar.
It appears...that Mid-year's Day was intended to correspond as nearly as possible to the summer solstice.
However, by my reckoning that would place our own New Year's Day on the Shire date of January 11, while Tolkien estimated: "our New Year's Day corresponded more or less to the Shire January 9." My figures do better support Tolkien's assertion that "the Shire dates were actually in advance of ours by some ten days", so perhaps his math was just a little bit off.
* * * * * *
The Shire Reckoning brings up an issue concerning Thorin's father Thráin II. Gandalf said to Thorin: "And Thrain your father went away on the twenty-first of April, a hundred years ago last Thursday, and has never been seen by you since". The problem with that is that under the Shire Reckoning the date of April 21 always falls on a Friday (and the Revised Reckoning goes back well before Thráin's disappearance). So either Gandalf misspoke or he was maybe referring to the Reckoning of Durin's Folk which might have placed Thráin's departure on a Thursday. This is a mystery that probably has no resolution.
* * * * * *
We know from Appendix B that the Shire-folk counted September 29, T.A. 2021 (S.R. 1421) as the End of the Third Age. The Shire Reckoning continued its counting of the years unchanged. Under King Elessar's New Reckoning the beginning of the year fell on March 25, commemorating the fall of Sauron. The Fourth Age Year 1 began on the date of March 25, 2021, old style. In the reckoning of the Shire, the Fourth Age was considered to have begun on 2 Yule 1422.
"Who I am is where I stand. Where I stand is where I fall.” -- The Doctor
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sador
Half-elven
Sep 25 2017, 4:23am
Post #72 of 90
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Elrond remembered "the ruin of the town of Dale and its merry bells, and the burned banks of the bright River Running".
This seems to imply he did travel East in Thror's time, and also later.
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sador
Half-elven
Sep 25 2017, 4:32am
Post #73 of 90
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Now that is an interesting comparison - Theoden as Jan (or John) Sobieski!
I did read Henryk Sinkiewicz's trilogy at around the same time I first read Tolkien (which was indeed long ago), but the Polish nobility Sinkiewicz described do seem pretty similar to the Rohirrim - in fact, more than the historical Saxons.
Thank you!
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Sep 25 2017, 5:44am
Post #74 of 90
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Elrond remembered "the ruin of the town of Dale and its merry bells, and the burned banks of the bright River Running".
This seems to imply he did travel East in Thror's time, and also later.
Perhaps Elrond made a side-trip on his way to visit with Celeborn and Galadriel (accompanying his daughter Arwen?). He might have even been on Council business.
"Who I am is where I stand. Where I stand is where I fall.” -- The Doctor
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Eruonen
Half-elven
Sep 27 2017, 3:19pm
Post #75 of 90
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Comment on E and F - re Westron
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Oddly enough, we do not really have any examples of Westron, the common language of Middle Earth (apart maybe from some place names). It is easy to think of it as English (which Tolkien states it has been completely translated into....). The emphasis on languages concerns Elven - Quenya, Sindarin and some Dwarvish runes and a little bit of Black Speech.
I assume Tolkien did not want to muddy the waters by detailing a "mannish" language that did not really have any "real" roots in this world (probably something in his mind like archaic Germanic / Gothic etc.)
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