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The One Ring Forums: Off Topic: The Pollantir:
Apologia - Can you help me settle a difference of opinion?
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Poll: Apologia - Can you help me settle a difference of opinion?
Yes, you need to apologize / Iím female
Yes, you need to apologize / Iím male
No, no need to apologize/ Iím female
No, no need to apologize/ Iím male
Iím confused
Other
View Results (43 votes)
 

The Grey Elf
Grey Havens


Sep 22 2017, 12:53pm

Post #1 of 31 (1708 views)
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Apologia - Can you help me settle a difference of opinion? Can't Post

Say youíre walking along minding your own business when you stumble and fall, knocking over and breaking a precious Ming vase. It is clearly an accident. Do you apologize to the upset owner of said vase? Or not?

My opinion, yes. You are responsible for breaking someone elseís property, even if it was not on purpose.

Mr. Elfís opinion: no. Instances like this are no different than an Act of God.

Iím not certain if we disagree because of differing personalities or if gender plays a role.

Vote and I will listen! Smile


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Sep 22 2017, 3:59pm

Post #2 of 31 (1566 views)
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Of course you are obligated to apologize. [In reply to] Can't Post

An apology is the very least that you would owe to the owner of the vase. It confounds me that anyone would even think to argue otherwise. Was Mr. Elf raised by Orcs? Tongue

On the other hand, I do have to wonder at the owner of a Ming vase who would leave it susceptible to such an accident.

I assume that this is all hypothetical. Angelic


Bracegirdle
Valinor


Sep 22 2017, 6:49pm

Post #3 of 31 (1550 views)
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Agree w/ Otaku. [In reply to] Can't Post

Do we blame all our faux pas on God?

Being a Ming vase the bumbling stumbler needs to quickly move all his wherewithal offshore under an assumed name. Cool


Darkstone
Immortal


Sep 22 2017, 7:36pm

Post #4 of 31 (1547 views)
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Probably apologize. [In reply to] Can't Post

But it does depend on the reason you stumbled. Like if you were distracted and not paying attention to where you were was going, then yeah, you should apologize. It's like if you was out driving around, texting on your phone, and you ran over somebody, then you should probably stop, get out, and apologize, preferably while rendering first aid.

On the other hand if there was an earthquake (ďact of godĒ) or sustained mortar fire (ďforce majeureĒ) that made you stumble into it, Iíd think the owner would have other more pressing concerns and an apology would be unnecessary.

But overall, if you can't walk responsibly, you should definitely stay at home.

(Of course if the Ming vase jumped out in front of you, that's an entirely different story.)


Silverlode
Forum Admin / Moderator


Sep 22 2017, 11:49pm

Post #5 of 31 (1521 views)
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Are you sorry it's broken? [In reply to] Can't Post

Is it broken because of you? Then you apologize. It's not automatically admitting guilt, it's regretting the outcome and one's participation (willing or not) in it.

If you meant it to happen, then you have a whole other level of apology and restitution to engage in. And it better be good!


The Grey Elf
Grey Havens


Sep 23 2017, 1:16pm

Post #6 of 31 (1468 views)
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Perfectly put, Silverlode [In reply to] Can't Post

Mods know how to school in the clearest of terms Cool


Silverlode
Forum Admin / Moderator


Sep 24 2017, 7:10am

Post #7 of 31 (1382 views)
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*pout* You know.... [In reply to] Can't Post

I was going to make a joke and post an emoji waving a big stick or something in response to this but I couldn't find one. How come nobody makes the kind I would use? None of the teacher emojis look remotely threatening enough.
TongueAngelic


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Sep 24 2017, 6:52pm

Post #8 of 31 (1311 views)
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25 to 0 at this time. [In reply to] Can't Post

We seem to have a consensus: Mr. Elf is a curmudgeon.


The Grey Elf
Grey Havens


Sep 24 2017, 7:46pm

Post #9 of 31 (1305 views)
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Haha, yes, itís looking pretty black and white [In reply to] Can't Post

Mr. Elf is actually not curmudgeony in the least, but he is stubborn. I think itís the whole implied guilt wrapped up in ďIím a clumsy orcĒ thing. Wink


The Grey Elf
Grey Havens


Sep 24 2017, 7:53pm

Post #10 of 31 (1301 views)
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There will never be enough emojis [In reply to] Can't Post

to adequately convey the length and breadth of human expression.

Or gentle threats to life and limb. :D


Annael
Half-elven


Sep 25 2017, 4:12pm

Post #11 of 31 (1196 views)
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it would only be an act of God [In reply to] Can't Post

if you had stumbled because you'd suddenly had a stroke or something like that, not out of your own failure to notice the thing that tripped you up.

I would go one further and say you are financially responsible as well.


Bracegirdle
Valinor


Sep 25 2017, 5:25pm

Post #12 of 31 (1190 views)
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Hmmm, strokes are an act of God? [In reply to] Can't Post

But eating too many cheeseburgers causes strokes Tongue.
i.e. Inability to refuse cheeseburgers is an act of God. Free will is banned from man?... just saying... wondering...


In Reply To
it would only be an act of God - if you had stumbled because you'd suddenly had a stroke or something like that



Ataahua
Superuser / Moderator


Sep 25 2017, 5:36pm

Post #13 of 31 (1188 views)
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A phrase not to be taken literally, I think. [In reply to] Can't Post

More like, 'entirely out of my control'.


Bracegirdle
Valinor


Sep 26 2017, 2:31am

Post #14 of 31 (1131 views)
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Agreed for the most part Ataahua [In reply to] Can't Post

Although we don't, at this point, know the mind of Annael. It certainly could (probably is) an analogy. But I believe there are those who would take the comment quite literally. My comment was (may have been) inappropriate. If so I do apologize.

I've never cared for blaming (or praising) God for every jot and tittle as is the wont of many. I can only hope for the mainly benevolent God of the New Testament and not the mainly menevolent God of the Old Testament.

Again, my apologies to Annael for any apparent misinterpretations of my curt thought.


Annael
Half-elven


Sep 26 2017, 3:43pm

Post #15 of 31 (1089 views)
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I meant [In reply to] Can't Post

something that caused the stumble that was out of the person's control. An earthquake would be another example.

I'm reminded of the time I tried to explain a situation in my department at work to our CEO, an engineer. I used a metaphor, because that's how my mind works. He, a literal thinker, was completely baffled, bless his heart.


(This post was edited by Annael on Sep 26 2017, 3:55pm)


Darkstone
Immortal


Sep 26 2017, 4:01pm

Post #16 of 31 (1085 views)
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Vaudeville Act of God [In reply to] Can't Post

I was picturing God's hand reaching down with His forefinger pressed against His thumb ready to flick the poor guy in the head:

"Stroke! And now for My next trick, flooding in Houston!"


Ataahua
Superuser / Moderator


Sep 26 2017, 6:08pm

Post #17 of 31 (1068 views)
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Heh - reminds my of an episode of Star Trek: Next Generation [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
I used a metaphor, because that's how my mind works. He, a literal thinker, was completely baffled, bless his heart.


...when Jean Luc Picard was trying to enter diplomatic relations with a species that spoke only in metaphor. Laugh


Annael
Half-elven


Sep 27 2017, 12:07am

Post #18 of 31 (1041 views)
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I loved that episode! [In reply to] Can't Post

Just as I loved "Arrival" for the idea that language as we know it may not be anything like language on other planets.

"Mirab, with sails unfurled" - the alien version of "Engage."


Annael
Half-elven


Sep 27 2017, 12:11am

Post #19 of 31 (1038 views)
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speaking of that, I need to see this movie: [In reply to] Can't Post

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt3792960/


diedye
Grey Havens


Sep 27 2017, 5:06pm

Post #20 of 31 (980 views)
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I believe so, because... [In reply to] Can't Post

... even though you didn't mean it, your actions have consequences, whether or not you intended them, and you must be prepared to accept them. Man/Woman Up!

That being said, where it is the offender's responsibility to make the apology, I think it is equally the responsibility of the offendee to accept it. Bad sportsmanship is the equivalent of a three-year-old throwing a tantrum, without the excuse of youthful ignorance.


Cuwen Maegmacil
Rivendell


Sep 28 2017, 4:30am

Post #21 of 31 (914 views)
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Absolutely apologize! [In reply to] Can't Post

Whether or not it was an accident, you need to be polite and admit that you messed up. I honestly don't care if it's a "precious" vase or a cheap flashlight. You apologize for your mistake. Yes, you may be the tool of an Act of God, but you still apologize because it is showing kindness to your neighbor and you initially do not have the right to act like a jerk by just walking away without any consideration to another person's feelings.


Annael
Half-elven


Sep 29 2017, 5:09pm

Post #22 of 31 (860 views)
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can I add a variation? [In reply to] Can't Post

because I run into this with some members of my family a LOT, and it seems germane to current issues of political correctness as well:

If you say something that you mean one way, but another person takes it the wrong way/personally and is offended, should you apologize?

If this is hijacking the thread, admins feel free to delete.


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Sep 29 2017, 6:57pm

Post #23 of 31 (837 views)
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Yes...sometimes? [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
because I run into this with some members of my family a LOT, and it seems germane to current issues of political correctness as well:

If you say something that you mean one way, but another person takes it the wrong way/personally and is offended, should you apologize?

If this is hijacking the thread, admins feel free to delete.


I've struggled with that question myself. I try to look at what I stated to see if I might have meant more under the surface than I realized or if I phrased myself poorly. Then I apologize if I think I was out of line. Then there's the half-cocked apology of "I'm sorry that you were offended," that admits no wrong.


The Grey Elf
Grey Havens


Sep 29 2017, 9:27pm

Post #24 of 31 (826 views)
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Not sure about the apology [In reply to] Can't Post

If what was said is open to interpretation, I think the listener owes you the benefit of a doubt (after you explain they heard your words in a way you never intended).

But if youíre truly guilty of mispeaking (wrong choice of words, ambiguous inflection), then perhaps. But I donít know if itís justifiable to be too offended. Every one of us has had words fall out of their mouth the wrong way.


Darkstone
Immortal


Sep 29 2017, 9:52pm

Post #25 of 31 (826 views)
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I can't argue with feelings. [In reply to] Can't Post

If people misunderstand and feel slighted or offended I usually just apologize. Just a straight "I apologize." What else can you do? I can't argue "you shouldn't feel the way you feel", and I consider "I'm sorry, but..." a self-negating phrase.

Unless they're being jerks in which case I repeat what I said with flourishes and extra details.

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