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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Lord of the Rings:
Dead Things in The Marshes

Cuwen Maegmacil
Rivendell


Sep 14 2017, 3:15am

Post #1 of 8 (2145 views)
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Dead Things in The Marshes Can't Post

Hope I'm posting this in the correct place. I've got a question that I am unable to answer.

Does anyone know who the Man/Elf is supposed to be in the Dead Marshes that Frodo sees in Jackson's TTT?

The Wiki page I found only discusses the Marsh scene from the book, which is great, but doesn't answer my question regarding the movie.

Any light that anyone could shed on the matter would be much appreciated!

"I'm not a Psychopath, I'm a High-Functioning Sociopath, do your research."
"But I don't regret, nor will I forget, all who took that road with me. Night is now falling, so ends this day. The road is now calling and I must away. Over hill, and under tree, through lands where never light has shined. I turned at last to paths that lead home."


Darkstone
Immortal


Sep 14 2017, 4:20am

Post #2 of 8 (2128 views)
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Allan Smith [In reply to] Can't Post

aka "Dead Marshes Elf".

Note that he is *not* the elf whose hair is tousled by exploding Sauron in FOTR's prologue. (That is Ben Britton, aka Fereveldir, who later dies at Helm's Deep.)

Nor is he, as some claim, Oropher (Legolas' grandfather) as the Dead Marshes Elf seems to be wearing Gil-galad's colors, which Oropher refused to march under.

IIRC, Jackson notes in the commentaries how impressed he was by Smith's ability to hold his breath underwater long enough for the shot.

******************************************
Queen Beruthiel, Queen Beruthiel, there's no one like Queen Beruthiel,
She's broken every Gondor law, she breaks the law of Earendil.
Her powers of feline-ation would make Aiwendil stare,
And when you reach the scene of crime - Queen Beruthiel's not there!
You may seek her in the Hallows, you may search throughout the square
But I tell you once and once again, Queen Beruthiel's not there!

- Old Tollers' Book of Fat Cats on the Mat



(This post was edited by Darkstone on Sep 14 2017, 4:23am)


Silverlode
Forum Admin / Moderator


Sep 14 2017, 4:42am

Post #3 of 8 (2120 views)
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The answer to this sort of depends... [In reply to] Can't Post

on whether you're wanting a general or specific answer. According to the book, the people seen in the Dead Marshes were images of the soldiers who died in the Battle of Dagorlad in the Last Alliance, which is the battle against Sauron shown in the prologue of The Fellowship of the Ring movie. The battle plain was later flooded, and covered the area where all the slain had been buried, so it became known as the Dead Marshes.

The movie character is not named, and I don't think the filmmakers ever said that he was anyone in particular. So the general answer is "one of the Last Alliance soldiers".

Now on to specifics. There are those who think that, in movie terms, it may have been this particular elf from the movie prologue. Here are the screen caps, so you can judge for yourself.

Fellowship of the Ring Prologue:



Dead Marshes in The Two Towers:



But then again, he's shown alive when Sauron is defeated, so the only way it could be him is if the shockwave killed him or he died on the way out of the battle plain. So in the end, it comes down to whether you find the resemblance close enough and the theory plausible or not. Personally, I think it was just a practical filmmaking decision to have extras from the Alliance shown as dead in the Marshes. Boring, I know.

If you want to speculate on specific identities, you can always pick up a copy of Unfinished Tales and decide if you think any of those named as perishing in the battle are likely candidates. The only characters mentioned in the Silmarillion as being at the Last Alliance battle are accounted for in the movies (Elrond, Gil-galad, Elendil, etc.). Unfinished Tales also mentions Oropher (father of Thranduil) and Malgalad (who Christopher Tolkien thinks may be another name for Amdir, early King of Lorien and father of Amroth). Oropher died in the first assault upon Mordor, and Malgalad/Amdir was killed there in an unspecified time and manner. If you wish to believe it's one of them, it's plausible enough, although, LOTR fans being what they are, you can expect plenty of people to argue the other way as well. Along with them, a large number of other Elves from both Greenwood the Great and Lorien also died there, along with Elves in the train of the various other elven princes, and any number of Men.

Silverlode

Roads go ever ever on
Under cloud and under star
Yet feet that wandering have gone
Turn at last to home afar.
Eyes that fire and sword have seen
And horror in the halls of stone
Look at last on meadows green
And trees and hills they long have known.




Silverlode
Forum Admin / Moderator


Sep 14 2017, 4:44am

Post #4 of 8 (2119 views)
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...And there you go. [In reply to] Can't Post

Giving simple explanations that blow my long complicated ones out of the water. Tongue

I wonder how I missed knowing that the two had been identified as different actors?

Silverlode

Roads go ever ever on
Under cloud and under star
Yet feet that wandering have gone
Turn at last to home afar.
Eyes that fire and sword have seen
And horror in the halls of stone
Look at last on meadows green
And trees and hills they long have known.




Cuwen Maegmacil
Rivendell


Sep 14 2017, 5:08am

Post #5 of 8 (2113 views)
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Ah that makes sense! [In reply to] Can't Post

I feel so inadequate now because I never even considered that I might have seen him in the FoTR prologue. Since it's not him, I suppose it is best that I never thought of it, but it's still the principal of the matter! ;)
Overall, yes, I was just wondering if PJ or anyone else came out and said, "And this is supposed to be------- who we made up but is based on Tolkien 's work".
Makes sense though that it's just lame Hollywood hole-fillers! :P

Thank you both for your answers! I love that this community knows so many small details!

"I'm not a Psychopath, I'm a High-Functioning Sociopath, do your research."
"But I don't regret, nor will I forget, all who took that road with me. Night is now falling, so ends this day. The road is now calling and I must away. Over hill, and under tree, through lands where never light has shined. I turned at last to paths that lead home."


Silverlode
Forum Admin / Moderator


Sep 14 2017, 6:24am

Post #6 of 8 (2107 views)
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Well, even in the books.... [In reply to] Can't Post

the faces that they see are those of unnamed soldiers. I don't know that it was "lame hole-fillers" really, since Tolkien didn't make them anyone in particular either. I think the anonymity was part of the point - sort of like the unknown soldier that Faramir wonders about during the battle in Ithilien. Thousands upon thousands died upon Dagorlad in various battles and were there in the dead marshes. It's basically a mass grave. It would be impossible to know who any of them really were, thousands of years later (the Last Alliance was fought in the Second Age, and the War of the Ring takes place in 3019 of the Third Age).

Silverlode

Roads go ever ever on
Under cloud and under star
Yet feet that wandering have gone
Turn at last to home afar.
Eyes that fire and sword have seen
And horror in the halls of stone
Look at last on meadows green
And trees and hills they long have known.




Darkstone
Immortal


Sep 14 2017, 1:20pm

Post #7 of 8 (2092 views)
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Legolas' disowned brother? Semi-redeemed orc? [In reply to] Can't Post

Allan Smith did act as Orlando Bloom's stunt double in LOTR, Kingdom of Heaven, and The Hobbit. So one might imagine Dead Marshes Elf as Legolas' brother who defied his grandfather and marched with Gil-galad.

To add in another level of dark mystery, Smith does show up in The Hobbit as Ragash, an officer under Azog the Destroyer:



Ragash is killed by Bard in the BoFA-EE. Perhaps upon his death his spirit returns to the Dead Marshes where he had originally been taken by the Dark Forces and resumes his natural elf form in an undead state that only Thranduil's forgiveness can finally free him from?

Or not.

******************************************
Queen Beruthiel, Queen Beruthiel, there's no one like Queen Beruthiel,
She's broken every Gondor law, she breaks the law of Earendil.
Her powers of feline-ation would make Aiwendil stare,
And when you reach the scene of crime - Queen Beruthiel's not there!
You may seek her in the Hallows, you may search throughout the square
But I tell you once and once again, Queen Beruthiel's not there!

- Old Tollers' Book of Fat Cats on the Mat



(This post was edited by Darkstone on Sep 14 2017, 1:35pm)


Smaug the iron
Gondor


Sep 14 2017, 4:12pm

Post #8 of 8 (2059 views)
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Scene [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Ragash is killed by Bard in the BoFA-EE.

Which scene is this?

 
 

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