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LOTR unoffcial read through Appendices
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Eruonen
Valinor


Sep 8 2017, 2:52pm

Post #1 of 87 (3726 views)
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LOTR unoffcial read through Appendices Can't Post

Appendix A - Annals of the Kings and Rulers

*Note how Tolkien keeps up the faux realism of his works as presented to the reader: "The section A III, Durin's Folk, was "probably" derived from Gimli the Dwarf....actual extracts from longer annals.....notes within quotation are found in the sources....etc."

He keeps the reader enthralled in the story and you imagine he has discovered a long lost trove of ancient documents from some monastery that was preserved since AElfwine brought them back form his tarrying.

"When ∆lfwine woke up, he found himself lying on a beach of Tol EressŽa and a group of Elves pulling up his ship on the shore. He came to Tavrobel, where lived Pengolodh who told him the AinulindalŽ,[5] and he was shown the Lammas,[6] the Quenta Silmarillion, the Golden Book,[7] the Narn i ChÓn Hķrin,[8] and the Annals of Aman and Beleriand.

∆lfwine learned much of this lore. When he returned to England, he translated the Silmarillion, the Annals and the Narn into Old English, giving explanations on the many names.

Descendants of ∆lfwine of the present time experienced memories or visions of their ancestors around the fall of Atlantis (cf. Nķmenor: Inspiration).

[edit] Other versions of the Legendarium"

http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/∆lfwine


(This post was edited by Eruonen on Sep 8 2017, 2:54pm)


Eruonen
Valinor


Sep 8 2017, 3:22pm

Post #2 of 87 (3564 views)
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New info for me...Numenor was originally Elenna [In reply to] Can't Post

http://www.henneth-annun.net/...es_view.cfm?plid=693

"Elenna ([eˈlenːa]) or Elenna-nůrŽ (Q, pron. [eˌlenːa-ˈnoːre]) also Andor, the "Land of Gift", was the island on which the realm of Nķmenor was founded.[2]
The name meant 'Starwards',[3] from the fact that the first Men to inhabit that island came to it by following the light of the Star of Ešrendil." http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Elenna

"And they called that land Elenna, which is Starwards; but also AnadŻnŽ, which is Westernesse, NķmenůrŽ in the High Eldarin tongue."

Origin of the name Elena:

A cognate of the Greek Helenē (light, torch, bright).


(This post was edited by Eruonen on Sep 8 2017, 3:27pm)


squire
Half-elven


Sep 8 2017, 5:39pm

Post #3 of 87 (3554 views)
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Always fun to delve into Tolkien's word-hoard [In reply to] Can't Post

What is the authority for linking Tolkien's Quenya root word 'El, Elen' (star) to the Greek name 'Helen' (which seems to be of uncertain origin and meaning)? I didn't see that in the henneth-annun.net page you linked to.

I mostly ask because Tolkien hated it when people made connections based on sound between his languages and real-world places or terms; yet in the very early phases of his language development his own notes acknowledge (occasionally) some such inspirations and connections.



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Eruonen
Valinor


Sep 8 2017, 5:55pm

Post #4 of 87 (3548 views)
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He can hate me in the after life I guess.... Authority? It is not linked on henneth-annun [In reply to] Can't Post

I just wanted to find a known primary world name that is similar. Both have the attribute of "bright" i.e. star related. The info came from a simple name search.

Tolkien certainly used primary world languages as the basis for his created ones...Finnish, Anglo-Saxon etc.


(This post was edited by Eruonen on Sep 8 2017, 5:56pm)


Eruonen
Valinor


Sep 8 2017, 6:12pm

Post #5 of 87 (3542 views)
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Star - Finnish - tahti - Sindarin - tinu - Hindi taara- Estonian taht [In reply to] Can't Post

Gujarati taro - Bangla taraka


(This post was edited by Eruonen on Sep 8 2017, 6:17pm)


squire
Half-elven


Sep 8 2017, 7:29pm

Post #6 of 87 (3532 views)
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OK, I guess [In reply to] Can't Post

I agree that Tolkien used linguistic structures and sound patterns for his invented languages that drew on well-known real-world languages. Quenya as you say draws on Finnish, and Sindarin draws on Welsh - by degrees and with interesting variations. Old English exists, and he used it to render Rohirric and a number of associated languages of the North and the early hobbit-folk; he didn't invent any language that drew on Old English, as far as I know.

His Elvish languages' vocabulary is a different matter - he seems to have built root words based partly on real-world inspirations, and partly on sound/poetic associations. His delight was in the aesthetic of a word in of itself and how it could be manipulated according to the phonetic and syntactical rules he'd set up. It was relatively rare for him to take a real word and use it as the basis for one of his invented words. One of the closest examples he admitted to was his root Mor- (black) which, of course, associates closely with Latin Mors, Mortis (death), since we associate dark color with funerary imagery. But death in many ways is really a white concept, evoking the lack of blood, paleness of ghosts, color of bones, etc. - it's going down the wrong path to connect Mordor, Moria, Moriquendi, the Morannon, etc. with death. Contrast this with, for instance, the name of J. K. Rowling's character Voldemort, with its implicit but creative use of the French mort for death.

What I don't see, getting back to our topic, is any connection between El-, elen- (star) and the Greek name Helen, which may (at a guess, according to linguistic authorities) relate to the word for torch or perhaps the moon - neither connotes the sense of brightness and minuteness that characterizes stars in Tolkien's Elvish world.

I admit I'm at a loss for how tinu, one of the three words in Sindarin that denote star in some form (the others, more common, are gil- and el-), can be linked etymologically to the other Indo-European words you listed, all of which are built around a 'tahr-' base.



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N.E. Brigand
Half-elven


Sep 8 2017, 8:32pm

Post #7 of 87 (3531 views)
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Not all notes have the quotation marks they should. [In reply to] Can't Post

Someone brought this to Hammond and Scull's attention in the past five or ten years. Can't remember the specifics off the top of my head.

There are four lights.

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Eruonen
Valinor


Sep 8 2017, 8:38pm

Post #8 of 87 (3530 views)
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Honestly, you think to deeply on this - [In reply to] Can't Post

"What I don't see, getting back to our topic, is any connection between El-, elen- (star) and the Greek name Helen, which may (at a guess, according to linguistic authorities) relate to the word for torch or perhaps the moon - neither connotes the sense of brightness and minuteness that characterizes stars in Tolkien's Elvish world."

**I did not say Tolkien used the Greek Elen as his root but that both words have suggestive meanings --

Elenna - The name meant 'Starwards.
What is the shape of Numenor / Elenna? - Star shaped.

Elen....Welsh....USAGE: Welsh PRONOUNCED: EL-en celestial, fire, light, nature, weather
Elen...Greek

len
image: http://cdn.thinkbabynames.com/img/play.png

Pronunciation of Elen [elen] as a girls' name is of Welsh and Greek origin, and the meaning of Elen is "sun ray". Welsh and Scandinavian form of Helen and hence closely related to the English name Ellen. The Welsh word elen means "nymph" though this is unlikely to be the origin of the name as it is found in early Welsh texts as the equivalent of Helen, the name of the mother of Constantine, Also form of Eleanor.

ASSOCIATED WITH greek, sun (star), scandinavian, nymph (goddess)


Read more at http://www.thinkbabynames.com/meaning/0/Elen#XjZi6EQfC8cllebK.99

"I admit I'm at a loss for how tinu, one of the three words in Sindarin that denote star in some form (the others, more common, are gil- and el-), can be linked etymologically to the other Indo-European words you listed, all of which are built around a 'tahr-' base."

***They all begin with T - I never said they were linked but that have commonality.


(This post was edited by Eruonen on Sep 8 2017, 8:39pm)


Eruonen
Valinor


Sep 8 2017, 9:09pm

Post #9 of 87 (3525 views)
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Tar [In reply to] Can't Post

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/-tar#Finnish

Suffix[edit]
-tar (genitive -tari, partitive -tari)

Forms feminine agent or occupational nouns
kaunis "beautiful" &#8594; kaunitar "beautiful woman"
laulja "singer" &#8594; lauljatar "female singer"

Finnish[edit]
Etymology[edit]
Supposedly clipped from tytšr (ďdaughterĒ) and then adapted to vowel harmony.

Suffix[edit]
-tar (front vowel harmony variant -tšr)

Forms the female counterpart of nouns indicating a person.
kuningas king &#8594; kuningatar queen
nšyttelijš actor &#8594; nšyttelijštšr actress
saksalainen German &#8594; saksatar a German female

Irish Gaelic: refers to the Hill of Tara, or Teamhair na RŪ, the seat of the kings of Ireland from neolithic times (c. 5000 BC) to the 6th century or later. With this reference, Tara is taken to mean "Queen".
Wiki

Persian...Tar - to cross over
Egyptian - Tar - road
Sumerian - Tar - cut off / fate
Attar is an ancient Semitic deity whose role, name, and even gender varied by culture. Wiki

Ishtar is a Semitic name of uncertain etymology, possibly derived from a Semitic term meaning "to irrigate".[4] George A. Barton, an early scholar on the subject, suggests that the name stems from "irrigating ditch" and "that which is irrigated by water alone",[5] therefore meaning "she who waters", or "is watered" or "the self-waterer".[5]

Slang definitions & phrases for tar Expand
tar
noun

A sailor

[1676+; fr the tarpaulin garments they made and wore]

Numenor...Sea Kings / sailors

Vedic - Tar - denotes agency in ongoing time.
denotes habitual, professional or expert agency.
https://books.google.com/...t%20word&f=false


(This post was edited by Eruonen on Sep 8 2017, 9:19pm)


Elthir
Grey Havens

Sep 9 2017, 12:39pm

Post #10 of 87 (3470 views)
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in response to Tolkien Gateway [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
As a literary device, ∆lfwine/Eriol actually serves an in-universe explanation about the origin of the legendarium. On the other hand, The Lord of the Rings suggests that Bilbo Baggins is the originator of the narratives, through his Red Book and his Translations from the Elvish which he compiled in Rivendell (which supposedly included Elvish lore including the Ainulindale and the Quenta Silmarillion).


In my opinion that's a pretty big "on the other hand" though: the later transmission scenario as published by the author versus a very arguably older abandoned idea.


Quote
Still, in some of the later writings of Tolkien written after The Lord of the Rings, ∆lfwine is still referred and it is hinted that he didn't fully abandon the idea of ∆lfwine's translations, since the two frameworks (Red Book and ∆lfwine) are not mutually exclusive.


The chronology is not so general as this however: Elfwine was arguably abandoned before the second edition of The Lord of the Rings was published (or if you like, at least vanishes from texts written after the late 1950s "phase" anyway) when the new scenario of transmission of the Silmarillion was imagined and added in publication.

I'm not aware of where "it is hinted" at that Elfwine wasn't "fully" abandoned, unless the writer of this article simply means that he appears in post-Lord of the rings texts... again, he does, but the new scenario really began to rise with The Adventures of Tom Bombadil and the second edition revised Lord of the Rings.

Admittedly in the later scenario there is no "answer" with respect to how Bilbo's text made it from Westron to Old or Modern English, possibly (in part) because "the translator" has decided to use Old English to represent the language of the Rohirrim now, which might muddle up things there.


anuther langwich comment

As already noted by Squire, this type of investigation concerning the Primary World Language meanings of words, names, elements, actually annoyed Tolkien (he responded with the case of "Sauron" as an example).

Admittedly even Tolkien's own letter forgets some of the connections beyond the Old English name that inspired Earendil, but as the matter can get complicated...

... I'll just add that Carl Hostetter used to publish an article in Vinyar Tengwar about the (at least originally intended) Primary World language connections through Indo-European roots and languages and so on (keeping in mind that over the years Tolkien notably expanded the time table between the First Age and real world history).

I'll also add that languages used in the conceit of translation (Old English, Old Norse, Modern English) should not really apply here, as this is very different from any supposed connection between an invented Elvish root, element, word, name, and something in the Primary World...

... and we need to keep in mind (not that you aren't) that there's an in world history of the languages down through the imagined timeline, limiting Tolkien from rather "willy-nilly" invention, so to speak (see below).

For example Tolkien took wholesale the name Moria from the Primary World but the meaning in the real world text had no meaning for him: he liked the sound sequence and found a way to fit it into the already existing (though admittedly changing) linguistic scenario.

Carl Hostetter once posted:


Quote
'I would hasten to point out that there is a very real connection between Tolkien's Eldarin tongues and the Indo-European languages. For instance, the root terH- "pass through, surpass, overcome" that Neil cites from Watkins is clearly related to the Eldarin base TER- 'pierce'. However, I can back such assertions up with phonological argument, with the preponderance of other Eldarin bases that also correspond to IE roots, and with several statements by Tolkien (most notably section 10 of The Lhammas) that show that he intended a relationship between Eldarin and Indo-European. (For the argument, evidence, and ongoing examination of this issue, see my and Pat Wynne's column "Words and Devices" in Vinyar Tengwar.) But Tolkien forcefully protests, esp. in Letters, that he did not† just snatch words wholesale and willy-nilly from various languages and plop them into his invented tongues. By Tolkien's own statements (...)'


Carl Hostetter, posted on Tolklang


(This post was edited by Elthir on Sep 9 2017, 12:53pm)


Elthir
Grey Havens

Sep 9 2017, 1:03pm

Post #11 of 87 (3461 views)
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'nuther example [In reply to] Can't Post

It was†relatively somewhat†late in the scenario that JRRT decided to drop the word Gnomes for the Noldor 'the Wise', but Nům survives in the 1977 Silmarillion at least.

The editors of VT point out that Nům must be related to the Elvish base NGOL- 'wise, wisdom' [among others], and 'Tolkien obviously devised these forms to imply a genetic connection with Indo-European gno- 'to know'

Sorry to ramble, just liked that example better Smile


Eruonen
Valinor


Sep 9 2017, 4:23pm

Post #12 of 87 (3436 views)
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No arguement regarding what Tolkien said about his invented languages, however, [In reply to] Can't Post

nobody operates in a vacuum unaffected by their previous history. Yes, he derived new words and some similar words with different meanings for his languages, but he did so in the context of his learning and familiarity with other languages as inspiration and sometimes the actual borrowing of the same words, names etc.


Eruonen
Valinor


Sep 9 2017, 8:08pm

Post #13 of 87 (3424 views)
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Tolkien makes an interesting comment about Dwarves [In reply to] Can't Post

"still living" in the southern Blue Mountains and that Cirdan may still be at the havens awaiting the last of the elvenkind. So, anyone in the Wexford area of Ireland or the Pembrokeshire coast -if you see a tall, very old, white haired bearded fellow by a marina, it just may be Cirdan trying to blend in. And if you see some very fair, tall, attractive people showing up for a "cruise" to Cape Clear Island or Hugh Town it just may be a straight road trip!
Also, if you are in Cornwall, near the "Blue Hills Tin Mine" or other mines and you see short, bearded men, they may be dwarves who have blended in to the Cornish.

https://www.google.com/...2!1i849!2i757!4f13.1

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/...s1600/screenshot.jpg

https://i.pinimg.com/...avel-irish-roots.jpg Dunbrody Famine Ship, County Wexford...that was just a cover story.

http://www.nwci.ie/...16/1452126636_mw.jpg Ah ha, Cirdan, we have spotted you! (Wexford) Independent party Mick Wallace....once again, a cover identity.
https://www.irishtimes.com/...ox_620_330/image.jpg

Or this guy http://c8.alamy.com/...uy-cotten-DD4K1A.jpg Fisherman, sure!

Cardiff man with dwarven ancestry clearly - http://i1.walesonline.co.uk/...ATES/s810/elyJPG.jpg


(This post was edited by Eruonen on Sep 9 2017, 8:22pm)


Eruonen
Valinor


Sep 10 2017, 1:06am

Post #14 of 87 (3385 views)
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It appears that Bilbo is the author of Appendix A...the footnotes indicate as such [In reply to] Can't Post

with JRRT commenting on Bilbo's information.

King Elessar establishes a home in the North and is visited by Peregrine, Meriadoc, and Sam whose daughter is a lady in waiting for Queen Evenstar.

Where was Tom Bombadil during all of this conflict in the North? Dunedain from Cardolan took refuge in his forest. We do not know with certainty where he was at this time but if in the same forest and his house exposed beneath the Downs it seems odd that nothing is mentioned of him. Then again, maybe the reason that the Dunedain could take refuge in the forest is due to Tom....just speculation of course.


squire
Half-elven


Sep 10 2017, 1:29am

Post #15 of 87 (3395 views)
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When beginning the Appendices, go back to the Prologue's "Note on the Shire Records". [In reply to] Can't Post

That's where Tolkien presents his very ornate construction of the "sources" for The Lord of the Rings, including its appendices (which a reader of the Prologue could have had no intimation of, since the first volume of LotR came out a year or so before the last). This part of the Prologue really only makes sense when, finally, the reader encounters the sizable amount of text that follows "Well, I'm back" in the final volume.

We're told that Bilbo's contribution is almost nil. His interest was the ancient Elvish legends of the First Age; Tolkien lays down here, in the three books called "Translations from the Elvish", a new 'source' for The Silmarillion, which at the time of LotR's publication he had high hopes of publishing soon thereafter. Bilbo, it's said in the Prologue, started some notes on LotR's story, but as hinted in the actual narrative, when he passed the project on to Frodo he'd been too strongly drawn to his poetry and had written down very little of the recent epic events. Frodo is thus the main author of the LotR -- or at least of the Red Book's main narrative on which the translator/discoverer (i.e., Tolkien) based his English-language romance.

The appendices are a different matter. The Prologue makes it clear that most of the material was compiled by the hobbits, but not written by them. The narratives and annals are excerpted (by the editor, JRRT) from accounts of Numenor, Gondor, Rohan, the Dwarves, etc., including the languages, alphabets, calendars, and so much more, that the hobbits (starting with Merry and Pippin) had collected in the course of many visits to the other capitals of culture in the new Fourth Age: Rohan, Gondor, Rivendell, and possibly others.

Others... I have always been fascinated by the idea that Pelargir must have had a tremendously valuable archive; it was a Numenorean colony in the Second Age, and was not destroyed when Numenor was. Compared to it, Minas Tirith, not to mention lost Osgiliath, were young cities with copies only of much of Men's ancient history and records of Elven affairs.



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Elthir
Grey Havens

Sep 10 2017, 1:33pm

Post #16 of 87 (3328 views)
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Nice summation [In reply to] Can't Post

I'll add (only to go hand in hand with my previous post) that the Note on the Shire Records comes later with the revised second edition, where JRRT not only revises the start to Appendix A, but adds (in Appendix A) another reference to Bilbo's connection with the matter of the Elder Days.

And while I myself love the idea of the Elfwine scenario, another late reason why I think it "must" be rejected is Tolkien's rejection of Quenta Silmarillion as being directly transmitted from Elves of Tol Eressea... rather QS becomes a mostly mannish affair, which fits with the "Bilbo transmission".

It's true that Tolkien (in my opinion) could have retained something of a secondary Elfwine transmission, but not for QS in my opinion... perhaps for linguistic texts or more pure Elvish records (the Awakening of the Quendi)... but these could also be found in Rivendell in any case.

Elfwine's scenario always helped with how Tolkien-as-translaror did so well with Westron and the Elvish scripts, but if we simply borrow "genetic memory" from The Lost Road (add Tolkien's real dreams of the Great Wave) for example, we could possibly employ that as helping translate the found trove of ancient writings.

Or something Smile


Elthir
Grey Havens

Sep 10 2017, 1:41pm

Post #17 of 87 (3322 views)
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translaror [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
Tolkien-as-translaror


A "translaror" is something slightly different from a translator, although admittedly the difference in spelling suggests a typo.

What's the difference? I do not gno.

Wink


Eruonen
Valinor


Sep 10 2017, 1:58pm

Post #18 of 87 (3316 views)
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I believe it involves hormones and surgery! [In reply to] Can't Post

Laugh


squire
Half-elven


Sep 10 2017, 2:30pm

Post #19 of 87 (3318 views)
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Ah! So interesting about the change to the 2nd Edition Prologue [In reply to] Can't Post

I acquired a 1st Edition "Fellowship" (only) a few years ago, and have not spent too much time combing it for interesting differences. So I never saw what you've just pointed out: that "A Note on the Shire Records", which I was decoding just now in my previous post, was only added to the Prologue after all three volumes, including the Appendices at the end of the book, had been published and read by Tolkien's audience. That makes more sense than the scenario I had presumed, where (as I noted) the readership of a just-published "Fellowship" could have had no idea what the heck the author/translaror was talking about!

I don't have a first edition "Return of the King", so I can only acknowledge with interest your note about the changes he made to the opening, and the contents of, Appendix A.

As far as the transmission of the Silmarillion goes, within the context of the legendarium, I know that is a very complex matter indeed, which I've never really spent too much time worrying about (unlike several very dedicated Tolkien scholars). The so-called "Translations from the Elvish" in Bilbo's hand is just one piece of the difficult puzzle Tolkien set himself after inadvertently inventing his entirely new Second and Third Ages several decades after writing his legends of the (now called) Elder Days or First Age. I believe another piece is Tolkien's decision at some point to regard his Silmarillion corpus as Mannish transcriptions made in Numenor and/or Gondor, rather than by Elfwine under direct Elvish instruction as originally conceived. Bilbo then, by the time LotR was being wrapped up, would be competing with the Gondorian records if he was actually learning the tales directly from Elrond's folk in Rivendell - unless, of course, even the Elves of Rivendell were influenced (as a HalfElven cultural center) by the more recent Mannish manuscripts!

We see something of this game within the Appendices, as laid out in the "Note on Shire Records", when the editor informs us that Gondor possessed the most authentic copy of the Red Book, more complete than anything that survived via the hobbits' libraries in the Fourth Age Shire. That copy included Bilbo's Silmarillion ("Translations from the Elvish") but it would presumably have been transmitted or edited by the Gondorian scribes and scholars, so that the final text could be reasonably read as both containing Elvish knowledge via Elrond, and Mannish knowledge via Elendil!

Somewhere in there, in other words, is Tolkien working out how to publish The Silmarillion in a form and format that would be (retroactively) consistent with the much later construction of The Lord of the Rings, not to mention the much more LotR-like rewritings of the Great Tales (Hurin, Turin, Tuor, etc.) that we now know Tolkien was trying to write in the 1950s (and which are now available in Unfinished Tales, HoME, and Children of Hurin).

But those texts are really just addenda to the main problem. Christopher Tolkien attempted and then, I believe, decided not to solve the puzzle that his father never completed, so the Sil as published in 1977 has only "Of the Rings of Power" as a link, and no "frame narrative" at all, whether via Elfwine, Bilbo and/or other hobbits, or the Men of Numenor.



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Eruonen
Valinor


Sep 10 2017, 3:21pm

Post #20 of 87 (3307 views)
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There is certainly a lot of material to explore, maybe not as films, but as [In reply to] Can't Post

illustrated histories or inclusion in games etc. of the Dunedain history in the North and in Gondor. The appendix A has a lot of material that is not necessarily included in the Silmarillion or other texts that would cause copyright violations etc.

Could films be made about selective portions of history with significant dollops of invented dialogue and characters...yes....would they be successful? I don't see them as films for theatrical release...but maybe more as television serialization ala GOT.

Could some of the significant eras be successful stand alone films....possibly but risky.


noWizardme
Valinor


Sep 10 2017, 3:26pm

Post #21 of 87 (3319 views)
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So, by co-incidence, neither JRR or BB could finish their books [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
We're told that Bilbo's contribution is almost nil. His interest was the ancient Elvish legends of the First Age; Tolkien lays down here, in the three books called "Translations from the Elvish", a new 'source' for The Silmarillion, which at the time of LotR's publication he had high hopes of publishing soon thereafter. Bilbo, it's said in the Prologue, started some notes on LotR's story, but as hinted in the actual narrative, when he passed the project on to Frodo he'd been too strongly drawn to his poetry and had written down very little of the recent epic events. Frodo is thus the main author of the LotR -- or at least of the Red Book's main narrative on which the translator/discoverer (i.e., Tolkien) based his English-language romance.


Bilbo being unable to finish his book is something of a running gag (or perhaps more). I suppose it dates from before JRRT realised that he too would leave unfinished work for his literary heir?

~~~~~~
Where's that old read-through discussion?
A wonderful list of links to previous chapters in the 2014-2016 LOTR read-through (and to previous read-throughs) is curated by our very own 'squire' here http://users.bestweb.net/...-SixthDiscussion.htm


Eruonen
Valinor


Sep 10 2017, 6:56pm

Post #22 of 87 (3291 views)
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You might be right but when he wrote the LOTR he still had hopes of finishing [In reply to] Can't Post

the Silmarillion.

Little tidbits...the corsairs of Umbar were renegade Gondorians of the kin-strife years.
A great column with a large crystal ball was once mounted on a highland in Umbar until thrown down by Sauron.
The northmen....later Rohirrim...were sometime untrustworthy allies.
The in-fighting would make for some terrific Shakespearian plays or inspired movies.
Some of the names remind me of Vedic names - Eldacar was born as Vinitharya........Northmen King Vidugavia.
Others have a Turkic/Iranian sound - Castamir.
"Soghdian mir = sun"
"Tharya is Name of a pious woman" in Arabic and "teary eyed" in Hindi. It is also the name of a dance in Hindi culture,


I have to assume Tolkien had some familiarity, maybe not extensive but at least knowledge of, with the Epic of Gilgamesh or The Bhagavad Gita.


(This post was edited by Eruonen on Sep 10 2017, 7:00pm)


Elthir
Grey Havens

Sep 10 2017, 9:35pm

Post #23 of 87 (3280 views)
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Mannish myth in Rivendell... maybe? [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
(...) I don't have a first edition "Return of the King", so I can only acknowledge with interest your note about the changes he made to the opening, and the contents of, Appendix A.


Just a little sample here (Appendix A), but also between the first and second editions, from The Adventures of Tom Bombadil it seems we can have lore reaching Rivendell from the South, and we have a reference to the Numenorean tale of Turin and Mim, emphasis on Numenorean.


Anyway, from the First Edition, Appendix A:

"Thus the Red Book contained many annals, genealogies, and traditions of the realms of the South and the North, derived through Bilbo from the books of lore in Rivendell; or through Frodo and Peregrin from the King himself, and from the records of Gondor that he opened to them: such as The Book of the Kings, The Book of the Stewards, and the Akallabeth (that is, The Downfall of Numenor). From Gimli..."

So it's not until the revised edition that Tolkien adds (to Appendix A, in addition to adding the Note on the Shire Records as well of course): "The ancient legends of the First Age, in which Bilbo's chief interest lay, are very briefly referred to, since they concern the ancestry of Elrond and the Numenorean kings and chieftains."


Quote
(...) I believe another piece is Tolkien's decision at some point to regard his Silmarillion corpus as Mannish transcriptions made in Numenor and/or Gondor, rather than by Elfwine under direct Elvish instruction as originally conceived. Bilbo then, by the time LotR was being wrapped up, would be competing with the Gondorian records if he was actually learning the tales directly from Elrond's folk in Rivendell - unless, of course, even the Elves of Rivendell were influenced (as a HalfElven cultural center) by the more recent Mannish manuscripts!

We see something of this game within the Appendices, as laid out in the "Note on Shire Records", when the editor informs us that Gondor possessed the most authentic copy of the Red Book, more complete than anything that survived via the hobbits' libraries in the Fourth Age Shire. That copy included Bilbo's Silmarillion ("Translations from the Elvish") but it would presumably have been transmitted or edited by the Gondorian scribes and scholars, so that the final text could be reasonably read as both containing Elvish knowledge via Elrond, and Mannish knowledge via Elendil!


Yes, and I think we could have mannish accounts in Rivendell from Arnor through Numenor, and that these, like museum jools of antiquity, would yet be copied faithfully by Bilbo, despite the "greater truth" that the Western Elves could possibly provide.

[the following was simply lifted from me trying to persuade William Cloud Hicklin that the "Bilbo transmission" and the "Numenorean transmission" were ultimately one and the same]

Translating ancient materials is one thing, "correcting" them another, the latter being not only unnecessary, but given the arguably "gravity" of the ancientry (and artistry) Bilbo is dealing with, he might be expected not to alter things.

If someone handed me an ancient Greek document to translate, for example, and I knew (or was told) that five things in it were factually inaccurate, would I alter these references? That's very arguably not my job, and likewise not Bilbo's. And it's not like Bilbo need leave out evidences of the Elvish perspective if the fuller legendarium includes (as I think it would) accurately translated texts that are more Elvish in nature -- more accurately describing the world from a Western Elvish perspective...

... or, a different Elven notion even showing up in the Mannish The Drowning of Anadune for example, in which the Western Elves teach the Numenoreans that the world is round before the fall.

[back to responding to Squire]

In short (and not that you said otherwise) I think Bilbo can encounter the mannish element in both Imladris and Gondor, and that certain "more Elvish" accounts like The Awakening of the Quendi (an Elvish "fairytale" mixed with counting lore) likely hails from Rivendell, for instance...

... maybe memorized by Glorfindel or Gildor or someone.

Hmm is "translaror" now something? Wink

Think Dean Sanderson from The Grinder if you've ever seen this (sadly cancelled as of now) sitcom.


(This post was edited by Elthir on Sep 10 2017, 9:48pm)


squire
Half-elven


Sep 11 2017, 3:32am

Post #24 of 87 (3245 views)
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'Leaf by Niggle' suggests it's not a coincidence [In reply to] Can't Post

That was written in the 1940s during his struggle to direct and control The Lord of the Rings, which had spiraled from a 'Hobbit' sequel into ... what?

I remember reading History of Middle-earth and seeing his continually revised outlines of what was left to write. Again and again he'd project just a few more chapters, leading to a big battle and the Ring's destruction, and then, presto, Book III happens and then Book IV happens, and .. will it ever end? Niggle, of course, has to die and go to heaven to see his completed work; and all he "leaves" behind on Earth is that one perfect painting of a single leaf.

Sure, it's a general allegory for any artist confronted by blocks, obstacles, and self-criticism, but we can still ask ourselves if LotR really represents just one perfect leaf (or, considering another recent thread, one magnum opus) produced by an author who had had ambitions to write a tree's worth of such stories??

And that doesn't even include his feelings about The Silmarillion, which was effectively on hold pending his completion of The Hobbit's sequel, and which he desperately wanted to finish so it could be published simultaneously with LotR. He nearly blew up his relationship with his long-suffering publisher, who continually and probably correctly judged the Sil to be neither finished nor marketable, and in the end he had to crawl back to them and beg them to just put LotR into print.

I have long thought that Bilbo's dilatory treatment of what became "Frodo's book" was Tolkien writing himself into his own book just as he had done when he first wrote The Hobbit itself. In such a reading, "Bilbo" and "Frodo" are two different aspects of Tolkien's feelings about writing stories.



squire online:
RR Discussions: The Valaquenta, A Shortcut to Mushrooms, and Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit
Lights! Action! Discuss on the Movie board!: 'A Journey in the Dark'. and 'Designing The Two Towers'.
Archive: All the TORn Reading Room Book Discussions (including the 1st BotR Discussion!) and Footerama: "Tolkien would have LOVED it!"
Dr. Squire introduces the J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia: A Reader's Diary


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noWizardme
Valinor


Sep 11 2017, 11:35am

Post #25 of 87 (3218 views)
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Yes, that makes sense [In reply to] Can't Post

I was imagining JRR's problems with finishing the Silmarillion as being the real-life counterpart to Bilbo's problems with finishing his book. That may be applicable now, but, as people had been saying, we think JRR probably didn't yet anticipate that finishing the Silmarillion would elude him. So any parallel must have been un-intentional on JRR's part (I used the word 'co-incidence', which I now see isn't quite right).

But I agree - it works better to see Bilbo's writerly problems as being a sort of commentary upon JRRs issues while LOTR was in progress. Far from getting peace and quiet to finish his book, Bilbo finds himself in the midst of a great supply of new and exciting material, both for his First-age translations and his third-age chronicle. There's a parallel there with JRR's experience, perhaps - in the process of writing LOTR he 'discovered' a lot of new things about Middle-earth, which the tidy-minded, editorial side of his personality would then want to tie in satisfactorily to his existing conception.

~~~~~~
Where's that old read-through discussion?
A wonderful list of links to previous chapters in the 2014-2016 LOTR read-through (and to previous read-throughs) is curated by our very own 'squire' here http://users.bestweb.net/...-SixthDiscussion.htm

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