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Grey Pilgrim
Registered User
Apr 29 2008, 1:51am
Post #1 of 135
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Great Interview with GDT
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Enjoy you fools of a took! 
http://www.mtv.com/movies/news/articles/1586421/story.jhtml
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N.E. Brigand
Gondolin
Apr 29 2008, 2:52am
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When del Toro refers to the "second half of the second film"
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...does he mean the second half of The Two Towers or the second half of the eventual bridge film?
This is odd: del Toro describes the period between The Hobbit and LotR as "the transition from the golden years to the rise of Sauron". But the kingdom of Arnor had long been destroyed, and Gondor had been in a state of long decline, by the time the events of The Hobbit took place.
And remember, if you find you don't like del Toro's take on The Hobbit, it's because you can't appreciate that he's making it from a "genuine place".
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We're discussing The Lord of the Rings in the Reading Room, Oct. 15, 2007 - Mar. 22, 2009!
Join us Apr. 28-May 4 for "Treebeard".
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Compa_Mighty
Dor-Lomin
Apr 29 2008, 3:07am
Post #3 of 135
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Some highlights:
MTV: Just two years ago, you were quoted as saying, "I was never into heroic fantasy." Did your views change? Del Toro: I wasn't. I completely gravitated towards horror. For whatever reason, I never hooked into sword and sorcery. I really rediscovered fantasy through my love of filmmakers as a filmmaker. Something kind of popped and jelled. I now can empathize with one side of the fantasy genre without ever wandering into lubricated musclemen with giant swords. "The Hobbit" occupies a particular seat in fantasy that is irreplaceable. They can dredge up old cadavers in my closet. I'm not running for president. I'm a f---ing filmmaker! I'm just trying to make the movie I want to.
Perfect answer. That should answer some questions that have arisen in this very forum.
MTV: How much of that film, then, will be based on Tolkien's writings?
Del Toro: We're going to start with "The Hobbit," in the writing process. We'll see if we can fully contain it in one movie, which I think is perfectly possible. We'll take it from there. We just outlined what we want out of [the second film]. We outlined what we expect to tell. It's just plans and ideas right now.
So it *could* be a two movie Hobbit, and nothing is set in stone. I did not see that one coming.
MTV: Will Ian Holm return as Bilbo?
Del Toro: [Holm] certainly is the paragon we aspire to. He will be involved in some manner, I'm sure. But at his age ... it's too early to tell. We are just in the early stages. It's too early to make commitments of that sort. We prefer to let the screenplay and the way the character comes to life guide us in the casting. I have many people in mind. Anything [else] I say will be used against me in a court of law. [Laughs.]
Ian Holm will be back... interesting. It seems like he has a couple of hidden aces...
Del Toro: If you [go] deep enough you will find people that hate any depiction of Tolkien. They dislike any Tolkien that is not Tolkien. The people that are going to like it are going to like it because I come from a genuine place. And the people that are going to dislike it are going to dislike it because I'm coming from a genuine place. There's no two ways about it. You have to follow your instincts. My message is simple: If you don't think [Peter] did a fabulous job, very likely you won't think I will. If you think he did, I will do my best to make you proud of me.
Very nice quote. I think that sums many things up. And I agree. There are people that only like Tolkien's vision of Tolkien. That won't be changed... personally, I think Peter did a fabulous job, I'm ready to be pround of Guillermo. 
Thanks for posting Grey Pilgrim!
Here's to Del Toro becoming the Irvin Kershner of Middle Earth!
Essay winner of the Show us your Hobbit Pride Giveway!
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Compa_Mighty
Dor-Lomin
Apr 29 2008, 3:13am
Post #4 of 135
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...does he mean the second half of The Two Towers or the second half of the eventual bridge film?
This is odd: del Toro describes the period between The Hobbit and LotR as "the transition from the golden years to the rise of Sauron". But the kingdom of Arnor had long been destroyed, and Gondor had been in a state of long decline, by the time the events of The Hobbit took place.
And remember, if you find you don't like del Toro's take on The Hobbit, it's because you can't appreciate that he's making it from a "genuine place".
I asked myself the very same thing about The Two Towers, but I believe he means his second film, the sprequel.
I believe from a Shire point of view, it was really a Golden Age. And I believe that's the way he's looking at it.
Concerning your last paragraph, I think he means there'll be people five years from now that will say: "He didn't get the story... he destroyed The Hobbit." But reality will be that he made his most heart-felt interpretation of the text, meaning it is an authentic artistic portrayal. Many people won't get that, and won't like it. Then again, so is art.
Here's to Del Toro becoming the Irvin Kershner of Middle Earth!
Essay winner of the Show us your Hobbit Pride Giveway!
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Tampa Phil
Ossiriand
Apr 29 2008, 3:25am
Post #5 of 135
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... caught my eye:
MTV: Just two years ago, you were quoted as saying, "I was never into heroic fantasy." Did your views change? Del Toro: Yes, when I sat down with a calculator and worked out what my 10% take of an estimated $1 billion box office amounted to.
TP.
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mwirkk
Nargothrond
Apr 29 2008, 3:26am
Post #6 of 135
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Yes, I think in the interview he gave just after being confirmed where he mentions his creative differences (which he'll insist upon), he's mentioning how, as Bilbo moves along his journey the palette will change. The golden age not only represents the Golden Age of Hobbits (which I believe he is talking about, rather than the Golden Age of Middle-earth) it also represents Bilbo's innocense, which he loses as the story unfolds.
There is another element in Middle-earth for which a golden palette also fits -- the Elves. But for them those colours represent not a time of great expansion and prosperity, nor even an apogee, but instead an autumn period in which the visible signs of their world dying is evident.
-mwirkk :)
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Compa_Mighty
Dor-Lomin
Apr 29 2008, 3:26am
Post #7 of 135
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Sorry for triple posting now...
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My timer was up and i forgot to comment on an interesting point.
European comic concept artists in addition to John Howe and Alan Lee. (He doesn't mention Lee on this one, but he said in anothe rone he would be meeting him later this week)
How will that bode to the design of the movies. I have to confess Middle Earth looks to me like Nasmith, Lee and Howe have painted it, I'm not sure about that other style.
Of course, I haven't been sure about many up to date, and somehow, the next interview always manages to, if not convince me, reassure me about my previous doubt.
This will be a long journey. We'd better be patient.
Here's to Del Toro becoming the Irvin Kershner of Middle Earth!
Essay winner of the Show us your Hobbit Pride Giveway!
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mwirkk
Nargothrond
Apr 29 2008, 3:27am
Post #8 of 135
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-mwirkk :)
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mwirkk
Nargothrond
Apr 29 2008, 3:31am
Post #9 of 135
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Well, it seems apparent Naismith had an impact...
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...on the LotR trilogy, even if he wasn't actively on the team.
Wasn't it true that they offered him a role on LotR but he had to turn it down for some reason?
If so, I would hope they would approach him again this time. Or even if it isn't, they should.
I think it is obvious that many of the "shots" in the trilogy were based on Ted's work.
-mwirkk :)
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N.E. Brigand
Gondolin
Apr 29 2008, 3:44am
Post #10 of 135
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Is it not possible, that several years hence, del Toro will have made his film of The Hobbit with all the genuineness that he possesses, yet still have failed? Can those who give their all not fall short?
I'm not wishing this on del Toro, but I do question pre-emptive statements that warn that an artwork not yet created could only be found a failure by audiences insensitive to the artist's efforts.
Or does everyone who dislikes Bakshi's LotR just fail to understand it?
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We're discussing The Lord of the Rings in the Reading Room, Oct. 15, 2007 - Mar. 22, 2009!
Join us Apr. 28-May 4 for "Treebeard".
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Voronwë_the_Faithful
Doriath
Apr 29 2008, 3:53am
Post #11 of 135
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Has an artist failed if one person doesn't like their work? Certainly under that definition, every artist has failed. Not everyone loves the Mona Lisa, or Beethoven's Fifth or, certainly, Tolkien's Lord of the Rings.
Isn't failure, like beauty, in the eyes of the beholder? Or is there some objective standard that determines when an artist has failed. If so, is it based on overall popularity? Or the views of some abstractly defined elite group?
I don't mean to sound snarky; I am genuinely interested in knowing how you define failure.
'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'
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N.E. Brigand
Gondolin
Apr 29 2008, 4:13am
Post #12 of 135
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First: I don't read your response as snarky.
I don't think there are objective standards, no. Or at least I haven't been convinced of any such yet. And yet everyone here likes some works and dislikes others. Is it wrong in such cases to decide the fault lies in the work not in the audience? (If an artist can't fail, can an artist succeed?) To take a case dear to you: did Christopher Tolkien make some mistakes as author-editor when creating the 1977 Silmarillion? Or do those who think so fail to fully understand what he did? What of those decisions about which he later expressed some regret? And is he he only one who can say when he failed?
As others have said, the ultimate (but not always fair) arbiter is time. Lots of composers wrote music at the same time as Beethoven; most of it has been forgotten -- deservedly so?
Now I do realize that del Toro, in the comment that I queried, was probably just emphasizing his genuine artistic interest in this project, and not belittling those who might dislike his work. But taken literally, we have to allow that every artwork succeeds, don't we?
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We're discussing The Lord of the Rings in the Reading Room, Oct. 15, 2007 - Mar. 22, 2009!
Join us Apr. 28-May 4 for "Treebeard".
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Peredhil lover
Doriath
Apr 29 2008, 6:15am
Post #13 of 135
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The more I read about GDT's comments
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the more I feel he's the right choice. It all sounds as if he's doing just what I want to see
Great reaction to the question about his former comments on Hobbit and fantasy, btw. He'll rue this comment already 
I do not suffer from LotR obsession - I enjoy every minute of it.
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maut
Ossiriand
Apr 29 2008, 8:06am
Post #14 of 135
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it is interesting.
He has a pretty good image of how it should be done.
Ian Holm is going to participate but what way? He is going to play aged Bilbo, no doubt(meaning Second Film) but as to the first... Though to me it would be strange if another actor will portrayed Bilbo in the First Film. Quite a problem, eh?
And what I like in the Interview is his words about Golden Age. That sounds great! And surelly his understanding of the story is amazing!Just as I always thought - the things gettin' darker towards the story. Surelly, his conception of the movie is very promising.
One Ring to rule them all,
one Ring to find them,
oneRing to bring them all,
and in darkness bind them!
__________________________________
A Elbereth Gilthoniel,
silivren penna míriel
o menel aglar elenath!
Na-chaered palan-díriel
o galadhremmin ennorath,
Fanuilos, le linnathon
nef aear, sí nef aearon!
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Sunflower
Doriath
Apr 29 2008, 8:58am
Post #15 of 135
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Yes. Bit techy, wasn't that?:)
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Well, get used to it, Sir....you'll have to deal with ALL stripes of Tolkien fandom the next 5 yrs! Including, as he says, the ones who just didn't want any Tolkien film adaptations at all, no matter how they turn out. But yes, I love how he just didn't care when he said that.
As for the interview itself....the more I read from this guy Shawn Adler, the more I like him. Any mainstream media interview with the word "legendarium"...well, he's wearing a giant pin that says "Tolkien geek" to me! (Heck, I don't even use that word!  ) ronically, MTV might bend up being one of the best media sources for this thing. I take it that was Mr.Adler was the one doing that little earlier Comic-Con clip. ("grovel fund"--LOL)
He reminds me a bit of the young Kurt Loder, back when Kurt Loder was a good music journalist.
(This post was edited by Sunflower on Apr 29 2008, 9:02am)
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Peredhil lover
Doriath
Apr 29 2008, 9:10am
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GDT is under no illusions about the reaction of the fans, and that is good. He can't please everyone anyway. The way he takes all that makes me respect him very much. 
Can't say anything about the interviewer, don't know any of these guys.
I do not suffer from LotR obsession - I enjoy every minute of it.
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Shagrat
Mithlond
Apr 29 2008, 9:21am
Post #17 of 135
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The bit about driving the Necromancer from Dol Guldur.....I'm assuming the interviewer added that? It might SEEM obvious, but surely we can't jump to too many conclusions just yet?
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Huan71
Menegroth
Apr 29 2008, 9:40am
Post #18 of 135
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....things being talked about or alluded to in the Hobbit would stand a good chance of being shown in the 2nd film; providing their relevant to the bigger plot line obviously.
That's probably what's meant by any "Hobbit being split in to to movies.." type comments.
I'm not surprised about him saying "if you don't like peter Jackson's vision then you wont like mine"
When i first watched "Pans.." i instantly thought of PJ's LotR's.
I found some earlier comments about "artistic success" interesting.
Can art be successful or not? A mountaineer succeeds or fails if they make it to a summit.
A company if it meets its orders on time.
A sprinter if they win a race or set a new PB.
But a movie ?...well, its only gauge of success, or lack of, is surely its profit (or lack of!!).
"Futility is the defining characterisic of life. Pain is the proof of existance."
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hatster
Nargothrond
Apr 29 2008, 11:04am
Post #19 of 135
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let just hope that the different point of view
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for the second film isn't that of the Necromancer....or some such...
I have lost the dwarves and I have lost the wizard, and I don't know where I am; and I don't want to know, if only I can get away.
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Guillermo
Ossiriand
Apr 29 2008, 11:19am
Post #20 of 135
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I personally define success quite simply:
"Success is the possibility of failure happening in your own terms"
Simple but true. The very features that make a story relevant to some are the ones that make it detestable to others. That's all I mean. An artist succeeds and fails only in each individual instance of communication. The rest is statistics and polling.
Golden Age to Darkness will become clearer as we move along...
My calculator has been in pretty bad shape since my very first movie. With the exception of DEVIL'S BACKBONE I have always deferred part or the total of my salary when making a film. And after the kidnapping of my father in the late 1990's after being on the brink of bankruptcy I still turned down NARNIA and the third HARRY POTTER film. I don't need to bend to make a living- otherwise i wouldn't do PAN's or DBB in between big movies.
Its inevitable to have the money permeate outer perception. Some people can't see the difference between my "being precious" about these things and then doing HELLBOY or BLADE II- but I can.
Perception comes with the job so I accept the negative and the positive ones with equal fervor and urge you to continue raising any comment you may have.
People may prefer Alan Lee, Howe or the Hildebrandt Brothers while others will always accept only Tolkien's own drawings and visual concepts. Dig deep enough and you will find someone liking Bakshi's film or even the Rankin-Bass films!! Or disliking the existing LOTR films for that matter...
The only "preemptive" part of my statement concerns not only the people that will dislike my work but also the ones that will like it. This disparity is part of every act of communication.
Also- I'm not a sci-fi guy but I would make a film based on Ellison in a second- or on Sturgeon or Bradbury or Matheson. I'm not into Barbarians with swords but i would kill to tackle Fafhrd and Grey Mouse... and so on and so forth... I'm a believer but not a Dogmatic.
All the Best
GDT
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Huan71
Menegroth
Apr 29 2008, 11:54am
Post #21 of 135
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Calculators are Vastly over rated, especially when compared to the Heart....
I tend to see art as a journey that never ends...one that can be undertaken not just by the artist but by the person(s) who are experiencing/sharing the art that's been created.
Whether they like it or not is an entirely different question of course!! lol
"Futility is the defining characterisic of life. Pain is the proof of existance."
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Unspoken_Request
Nevrast
Apr 29 2008, 12:28pm
Post #22 of 135
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Since you just posted, I probably could take the opportunity to make all kinds of suggestions as to how this or that should be done because you'd likely take notice of it. I'll try to refrain from doing it because it would be rude to come up here with my "wish list".
I'll just say that I think you are the right choice for this movie. The fact that you were not that much into fantasy before is, I think, an asset in a way. Fantasy has its faults sometimes. Things in a book may look silly on screen. For instance, PJ toning down (and making it more subtle) the hocus pocus magic for LOTR was a good idea overall. He did it a bit too much for my personal tastes (Gandalf comes off as a bit too weak for most fans), but, in the end, it made the whole story more realistic. Magic seemed natural to Middle-earth.
This critical mind on fantasy story is essential. You seem to have it. To me that is reassuring.
On continuity
This of course is important. I'm glad you are committed to it. No one here wants the sort of mistakes Star Wars fan had to cope with the Prequels... (Leia talking about her mother in Ep6, while we see her dying in birth in episode 3...).
Yet, don't sacrifice a good idea for the sake of perfect continuity. Most of us here can agree with most of your decisions as long as they are justified for the sake of the movie (taking out Bombadil was easily justifiable; taking out Saruman's death was less obvious).
To illustrate my point, the petrified trolls can't be changed logically. They have to look the way they did in FOTR. Choosing another actor than Ian Holm for young Bilbo may be necessary (as long as the young Bilbo scene in FOTR is redone for future DVDs). Wargs can logically be done differently (most of us here don't like the way they were done; they should look like giant wolves. They would be much more effective/scary) because having different types of wargs isn't stretching M.-E. reality too much. After all, there are different types of orcs...
Again, I'm glad you're taking on this project. I'm sure you'll bring something fresh to this Middle-earth. Good luck sir
(This post was edited by Unspoken_Request on Apr 29 2008, 12:30pm)
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_V_
Menegroth
Apr 29 2008, 12:57pm
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"[It's much more about] trying to reconcile the facts of the first movie with a slightly different point of view. You would be able to see events that were not witnessed in the first film [like driving the Necromancer from Mirkwood]. You would come to them in a roundabout way."
So I think we'll see the White Council stuff, but they're mostly putting it in the second film to show the progression of the return of evil.
"Holm certainly is the paragon we aspire to. He will be involved in some manner,\"
Great; and also acknowledging "guys, he's too old to play young Bilbo". I'd like him to be a narrator, writing his book.
So it sounds nice that they want to actually give the "feel" onscreen that "this is an earlier time before Sauron returned and things got darker"
Well, things were always in a bit of a decline most of the Third Age, but this is before it took a DRASTIC turn for the worse.
"Pleased to meet you, hope you guessed my name, but what's puzzling you, is the nature of my game"
Formerly known on TORN as "Draug the Unspeakably Violent"
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Darkstone
Elvenhome
Apr 29 2008, 1:47pm
Post #24 of 135
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But what is quite touching and miraculous to me about it is that it also reflects the transition from innocence to the loss of innocence. It is a story about a beautifully carefree creature who learns about war and violence.
Yep. He’s got the spine of the story. That's the most important part. This is going to be good.
If you [go] deep enough you will find people that hate any depiction of Tolkien. They dislike any Tolkien that is not Tolkien.
And he recognizes the unsatiable pathological purist that is deep (and often not so deep) within each of us. He understands that no matter how hard he tries he can never make a movie to please all of us. So now he's free to make the best movie he can, one that pleases him.
The Hobbit is in good hands.
******************************************
The audacious proposal stirred his heart. And the stirring became a song, and it mingled with the songs of Gil-galad and Celebrian, and with those of Feanor and Fingon. The song-weaving created a larger song, and then another, until suddenly it was as if a long forgotten memory woke and for one breathtaking moment the Music of the Ainur revealed itself in all glory. He opened his lips to sing and share this song. Then he realized that the others would not understand. Not even Mithrandir given his current state of mind. So he smiled and simply said "A diversion.”
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merklynn
Menegroth
Apr 29 2008, 1:54pm
Post #25 of 135
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I think what he means by "golden age/place" is the perspective of the Hobbits and the Shire. The Hobbit is the journey of Bilbo Baggins a naieve hobbit who has not seen much of the world and is about to go through journey, the "loss of innocence", which GDT directly said. I think this is a metaphorical "golden place" that GDT is tlaking about and that his camera lense as a director will reflect that in his cinematography and angle on the film as it slowly darkens with Bilbo's journey. I don't think he was literally talking about a "golden age" for Arnor or anything like that. From the point of view of the sheltered Hobbits only. Take the butterfly scene with Bilbo climbing the tree in The Hobbit for example. The poor little guy gets taken right out of his comfort zone and misses it dreadfully.
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