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AinurOlorin
Half-elven
Apr 28 2008, 10:49pm
Post #1 of 33
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Of all the characters who were missed in the LOTR films, I don't think I am far off in saying that Glorfindel's absence was most keenly felt by the majority, and the hardest to explain away. Bombadil's omission we understood. There really was no place for him. Yet, even though many of us made sense of the fact that a larger role was desired for Arwen, we still were deeply dissapointed that the only High Elf of note and consequence in the entire novel aside from Galadriel, recieved not so much as a single spoken line at the concil of Elrond.
Now The Hobbit and A Bridge film are being made, and it is all but impossible to imagine that The Council of The Wise, of which Glorfindel was a known and prominent member, would not be present within it. Aside from his inclusion by name in The Tale of Years (a claim which neither Erestor, nor Galdor, or Gildor can make), and the side notes by Christopher Tolkien which speak of his abiding friendship with Gandalf, he is an Elf both far mightier, and more signifcant in his deeds, than Haldir of Lorien, who gets a massive expansion in the films (nothing against him of course, I am just saying, Haldir is NO Glorfindel).
Twice, Glorfindel drove the Witch-King himself before him. I think in The Bridge, where so much material has to be cobbled together, a place should definitely be made for this Great Elf Lord, at least in Rivendell, and as a member of The Council, and possibly. . . saving a hunted Aragorn from The Nine, as he essentially does for another heir of Elendil in the distant antiquity of the early Third Age upon the very fences of Angmar. We'll see. I certainly want to see Gandalf, perhaps in escaping Dol Guldur, get his moment to battle the Nine as described in the Fellowship novel. . . "At night, they closed round. I was besieged on the hill top. . . such light and flame cannot have been seen on Weathertop since the war beacons of old!" It would certainly make up for that offense concerning him and The Witch King in extended ROTK. But I digress. My main point. Glorfindel is a magnificent figure, and it would be very easy to make room for him in at least one of the upcoming films. He should be there, and I very much hope he is.
"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"
"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."
(This post was edited by Silverlode on Apr 29 2008, 1:07am)
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N.E. Brigand
Half-elven
Apr 29 2008, 2:33am
Post #2 of 33
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Powerful figures are not necessarily important characters.
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In simple story terms, Glorfindel is almost unnecessary in The Lord of the Rings. Did I miss him in the film? Absolutely. But all that's needed in "Flight to the Ford" is someone with a horse that Frodo can ride to reach the Ford before the pursuit catches him. The flood could as easily have caught all the Black Riders without need of Glorfindel's shining light to drive them in. Glorfindel's lines at the Council of Elrond could be given to other characters. And the stuff in the Appendices, wonderful as it may be, is practically superfluous.
As a character in the book, Glorfindel is arguably less important than either Gildor or Haldir, both of whom have about as many lines.
<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
We're discussing The Lord of the Rings in the Reading Room, Oct. 15, 2007 - Mar. 22, 2009!
Join us Apr. 28-May 4 for "Treebeard".
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Eledhwen
Forum Admin
/ Moderator
Apr 29 2008, 6:09am
Post #3 of 33
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I like him in the book, but he's really a minor character - he serves mainly as a sort of deus ex machina to get Frodo safely to Rivendell. And certainly when I first read LOTR I was completely unaware of his position as Balrog-slayer (and that's using the general assumption that they are one and the same). I don't mind too much if he's there or not in these two films; though if there's a random blond Elf wandering around Rivendell, I'm sure he'll quickly be dubbed "Glorfindel" by fans!
Akaroa jetty, New Zealand, March 2008
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MrCere
Sr. Staff
Apr 29 2008, 6:11am
Post #4 of 33
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Those are bold statements! {NT}
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I have no choice but to believe in free will.
The cake is a lie
The cake is a lie
The cake is a lie
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Kelvarhin
Half-elven
Apr 29 2008, 10:35am
Post #5 of 33
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Of course I missed Glorfindel but
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I personally thought leaving out the Dunedain and Halbarad and Elrohir and Elladan was worse.
There he stood
Proud and solemn
Yet happy and gay
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Unspoken_Request
Bree
Apr 29 2008, 1:32pm
Post #6 of 33
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I don't agree with you. Glorfindel has no place in the Hobbit
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and it is a good call from PJ that he was taken out of FOTR. If I had to choose between the two, I would prefer seeing a bit of Bombadil. At least, he brought a clearly distinctive personality to the tale. I'm sorry but Glorfindel isn't fleshed out enough to be interesting. I would be so bold as to say that he's just a "cardboard-über-poweful-prince elf".
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Kelvarhin
Half-elven
Apr 29 2008, 1:34pm
Post #7 of 33
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Hey that's my childhood dream-man your dishing :p /
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There he stood
Proud and solemn
Yet happy and gay
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Unspoken_Request
Bree
Apr 29 2008, 1:41pm
Post #8 of 33
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I liked the guy too when I was young too, but
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let's face it, he doesn't have a long enough part in LOTR to make him that interesting for a movie. He would just be another powerful elf.
(This post was edited by Unspoken_Request on Apr 29 2008, 1:42pm)
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Kelvarhin
Half-elven
Apr 29 2008, 1:54pm
Post #9 of 33
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I was just pulling your leg  Even though he was my favorite when I was 8
There he stood
Proud and solemn
Yet happy and gay
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Darkstone
Immortal
Apr 29 2008, 2:16pm
Post #10 of 33
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The fox was Jackson's most egregious omission!
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I mean, really, the fox is the spine of the entire story, the raison d'etre of the books, the grain of sand from which the entire trilogy follows, the defining moment of Middle-earth, the embodiment in one character of all of Tolkien's themes.
Jackson just didn't get it.
******************************************
The audacious proposal stirred his heart. And the stirring became a song, and it mingled with the songs of Gil-galad and Celebrian, and with those of Feanor and Fingon. The song-weaving created a larger song, and then another, until suddenly it was as if a long forgotten memory woke and for one breathtaking moment the Music of the Ainur revealed itself in all glory. He opened his lips to sing and share this song. Then he realized that the others would not understand. Not even Mithrandir given his current state of mind. So he smiled and simply said "A diversion.”
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AinurOlorin
Half-elven
Apr 29 2008, 3:43pm
Post #12 of 33
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Glorfindel is a more potent figure than Haldir, and much more consequential in the largr Legendarium. I wouldn't expect him to become a central role, but for all the traits so specific to him. He is more easily worked in thean Bombadil, and as I said, more relevant than Haldir. He is one of the few known members of The White Council, a close friend to Gandalf, and the migtiest of the Eldar who dwell with Elrond. And no, it could not have been anybody with a horse who showed up before the ford. If that had been the case, the nine would hav ridden back onto the near shore, probably capturing or killing the other hobbits and Aragorn. It was the revelation "in his wrath" of "one of the mightier of The Firstborn" that dismayed them , causing them to hesitate from retreat and be swept away by the river. He is the only significant male High-Elf that we encounter, and probably surpasses all of the Noldo remaining in Middle-Earth, save Galadriel.
Glorfindel has gotten a lot of play in the 2008 LOTR related New Line calenders, and in the Middle Earth games tied to New Line.
I would think a space as big as the one made for Haldir, could be made for the far more august and illustrious Glorfindel. . . minus the slaying by an orc of course.
"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"
"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."
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L. Ron Halfelven
Grey Havens
Apr 29 2008, 4:00pm
Post #13 of 33
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They taught all the animals to talk, as a parting practical joke.
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They knew they wouldn't be around to deal with the consequences (Toads stealing motorcars, geckos selling insurance, wisecracking sidekicks voiced by Eddie Murphy, etc.)
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Unspoken_Request
Bree
Apr 29 2008, 7:28pm
Post #14 of 33
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Your Tolkien lore is again very impressive. I can,t remember having read that Glorfindel was a member of the White Council. (that would be logical considering his status)
Since this is the case, I wouldn't oppose him being at the council, but what does he have to do except being at the council? and what should be his position? Has Tolkien left any clue on this?
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Tolkien Forever
Gondor
Apr 29 2008, 7:58pm
Post #15 of 33
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Of all the characters who were missed in the LOTR films, I don't think I am far off in saying that Glorfindel's absence was most keenly felt by the majority, and the hardest to explain away. Bombadil's omission we understood.
Well, that's debateable. To Bombadil fans, it's Bombadil, to Glorfindel freaks, it's Glorfindel. To other's it's Imrahil & the knights of Dol Amroth or Elladan, Elrohir & the Dunadain of the North....
To some, seeing the Easterings march in to the Black gate (from the wrong side no less), yet never seeing them in the Battle of Pellannor Fields.
There really was no place for him.
Bombadil would not have 'pushed the plot along' as they say in Hollywood.
Yet, even though many of us made sense of the fact that a larger role was desired for Arwen,
See above too.
we still were deeply dissapointed that the only High Elf of note and consequence in the entire novel aside from Galadriel, recieved not so much as a single spoken line at the concil of Elrond.
In PJ's Middle-earth, we need to understand that their was no distinction made between High Elves & Dark Elves. Legolas, for example, is presented as a combination of Feanor, Finrod & Fingolfin all in one, while in the book, Tolkien he's a Dark Elf who Tolkien says 'probably accomplished the least of the Nine Walkers'.
Now The Hobbit and A Bridge film are being made, and it is all but impossible to imagine that The Council of The Wise, of which Glorfindel was a known and prominent member, would not be present within it.
Oh yes it is......
PJ did it quite fine in The Council of Elrond by just having 6-10 generic faces around the known characters.
Aside from his inclusion by name in The Tale of Years (a claim which neither Erestor, nor Galdor, or Gildor can make), and the side notes by Christopher Tolkien which speak of his abiding friendship with Gandalf, he is an Elf both far mightier, and more signifcant in his deeds, than Haldir of Lorien, who gets a massive expansion in the films (nothing against him of course, I am just saying, Haldir is NO Glorfindel).
PJ's Middle-earth was not Tolkien's, and I seriously doubt it will be again.
Twice, Glorfindel drove the Witch-King himself before him. I think in The Bridge, where so much material has to be cobbled together, a place should definitely be made for this Great Elf Lord, at least in Rivendell, and as a member of The Council, and possibly. . . saving a hunted Aragorn from The Nine,
But where does he save Aragorn from The Nine in the book?
(I'm jumping ahead to the next post of yours).
I doubt The Nine would've attacked Aragorn, Sam, Merry & Pippin if Frodo got away.....
Why? They didn't have the Ring & The Nine's strength was in terror, not military strength. As Glorfindel said, they would've just left the others alone if it was not for Frodo & that which he carried.....
as he essentially does for another heir of Elendil in the distant antiquity of the early Third Age upon the very fences of Angmar. We'll see. I certainly want to see Gandalf, perhaps in escaping Dol Guldur, get his moment to battle the Nine as described in the Fellowship novel. . . "At night, they closed round. I was besieged on the hill top. . . such light and flame cannot have been seen on Weathertop since the war beacons of old!" It would certainly make up for that offense concerning him and The Witch King in extended ROTK. But I digress. My main point. Glorfindel is a magnificent figure, and it would be very easy to make room for him in at least one of the upcoming films. He should be there, and I very much hope he is.
Well, it would be easy to make room for him, but I don't see PJ doing it. One of PJ's focuses in the movies was to cut out characters to simplify things - he says so in the commentaries.
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merklynn
Lorien
Apr 29 2008, 8:08pm
Post #16 of 33
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Technically there are millions of characters or ... names really... that could be in the many scenes of a new film for The Hobbit and Sprequel. Okay, maybe not millions, but a lot of them are really only names in terms of having any real relevance to the immediate plot. Yes it might be nice to see a few lesser characters, and I'm sure we will, but the only characters that might really matter to a Sprequel that includes the White Council would be Gandalf, Elrond, Saruman, and Galadriel. The rest can be Tom, Dick, and Harry, and it won't make much difference.
In fact, if the Sprequel is predominantly new material, then in the minds of some fans perhaps it is better that new characters are used rather than existing lesser characters, that way their actions will not have anything to be held up against. Celeborn could of course be present, but even he isn't really important. So Glorfindel, whether he is a "Super Elf Legolas" or not, can really be anyone for the purposes of the movie, as there is nothing about his actions during the period where the new movies will take place.
I notice that the MTV interviewer in the GDT interview inserted his own bit about the Necromancer and Dol Guldur/Mirkwood. This does not mean GDT is interested in this at all, or that it is a confirmation of any sorts that it is something we can expect to see in a sprequel. So the Sprequel could just be another Hobbit movie for all we know. Or if we are lucky and Aragorn growing up film...
(This post was edited by merklynn on Apr 29 2008, 8:11pm)
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Unspoken_Request
Bree
Apr 29 2008, 11:27pm
Post #17 of 33
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This is why I asked if Tolkien had given any info...
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on Glorfindel during those years.
However, there is one a place where I disagree with you. I wouldn't want the filmakers to create too many characters, especially in a pivotal part as the White Council. If they want someone else than Gandalf, Elrond, Saruman and Galadriel talking at the white council, I prefer they'd be reknown Tolkien characters. This is a high profile council, I don't want any no names there. Too many question would pop up in the heads of the fans, who is this guy why is he there?
If it's someone like Glorfindel or maybe Radagast the Brown maybe, his intervention in the debates would seem rather legitimate (as long as what he says is in tune with what we know of this particular character.
Frankly, if Dol Guldur is not in there somewhere. I'll be disappointed. Beside the ring, the Necromancer is the main plot-link between The Hobbit and the LOTR trilogy. They'd better come up with a full-proof reason to explain why they decided to throw away this potential storyline.
They said it on numerous occasion. They need a link between The Hobbit and LOTR. This is clearly the most relevant link. One that follows the story of how Middle-earth succeeded in its fight against Sauron.
A story about Aragorn's youth and his romance with Arwen would hardly be related to The Hobbit unless you make a major modification to this book and to Tolkien's world. The chase for Gollum wouldn't be enough I think because the ring isn't related to the quest's main objective in The Hobbit. The other link I can think of would be replacing Bard by Aragorn... and I wouldn't want that (be prepared though this could likely happen... both character have similar characteristics (grim) and we all know having an unknown character killing the Dragon wouldn't work well with regular movie audience... )
In the end, considering what has already been hinted by GDT in the numerous interviews he gave (he's been talking about what happens in parallel to the quest portrayed in the Hobbit), I'd say the Dol Guldur part will very very likely be there somewhere in one form or another. I'm optimistic on this one.
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merklynn
Lorien
Apr 30 2008, 12:08am
Post #18 of 33
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I'm also optimistic, to a degree... but remember it was the interviewer who inserted the following...
Del Toro: [It's much more about] trying to reconcile the facts of the first movie with a slightly different point of view. You would be able to see events that were not witnessed in the first film [like driving the Necromancer from Mirkwood]. You would come to them in a roundabout way.
Guillermo's own words "come to them in a roundabout way" I guess could be construed to mean that despite the copyright problems of material covering this period coming from the Unfinished Tales, they will find some legal way around telling that same story without infringement. I'm not sure how without being a lawyer, but I hope this can be done without drastically altering the scenario and names. The "fan boy" (ugh) side of me wants to see the big names Gandalf, Elrond, Galadriel, and Saruman, fight Sauron the Necromancer and his wraith cronies. I have no idea what's in store for us in the sprequel, but I too will be let down if this event is omitted. Maybe the movie would surprise and please me in other ways... but I'm aching for this story.
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Slayer_Of_Orcs
The Shire
Apr 30 2008, 1:03am
Post #19 of 33
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I don't think the average viewer had the chance to appreciate Aragorn WRT where he came from. The theatrical release was lacking in that area and the scene with him revealing his age to Eowyn appeared only in the extended release. I would have loved to have seen him meet up with his brethren.
_______________________________________
We are waiting ...
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mae govannen
Tol Eressea
Apr 30 2008, 9:59am
Post #21 of 33
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Elves making practical jokes!!! LOL!... //
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'Is everything sad going to come untrue?'
(Sam, 'The Field of Cormallen', in 'The Return of the King'.)
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fmaximus
Rivendell
Apr 30 2008, 12:38pm
Post #22 of 33
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"Glorfindel has no place in the Hobbit"
Perhaps there could be a place for him in the 2nd film.
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AinurOlorin
Half-elven
Apr 30 2008, 3:39pm
Post #23 of 33
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We Know Glorfindel was on The Council of The Wise. . .
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Actually, he himself makes it clear in Fellowship. When he speaks of Saruman's motivations and actions at the meetings of the council, he includes himself as having been present.
As to the weeding out of minor characters. . . how do you explain Haldir, or Grimbold and their speaking lines. And what of the several non-characters who only appear in the film in minor speaking parts.
A minor speaking line and an acknowledgement of Glorfindel would be SOMETHING, and better than the near nothing he has gotten. He deserves better ( so does Radaghast for that matter, but that is another story for another thread).
Glorfindel should at the very least be present at The Council and say something. That is easily accomplished and far from a stretch. And it would be truly offensive to see any new and made up character get to speak, while a fn favourite from the core material was ignored. He is one of the mightiest Eldar remaining in Middle-Earth, within the top five even if Galadriel and Elrond are included. He is the mightiest Elf Lord dwelling in Rivendell aside from the threefold raced Elrond himself, and he is close in freindship with Gandalf, and was so even in Valinor (see Peoples of Midlle Eart). There is nothing to loose in giving him some role, and plenty to be gained, at least in terms of propriety and fan appreciation.
"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"
"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."
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merklynn
Lorien
Apr 30 2008, 3:46pm
Post #24 of 33
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Glorfindel's massive internet following...
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You're right, the legions of Glorfindel fans will probably tear this movie to shreds if he's not in the film. Glorfindel is certainly top of the priorities for The Hobbit and Sprequel. *okay... I'll ease of the sarcasm*
Just out of interest, who would you see cast as Glorfindel, or what sort of casting criteria would you feel appropriate for this character. Is it not important? Is it just that you feel he should have some visual or verbal presence in a scene in order to keep you from burning the movie at the stake?
Just curious. :-D
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vtboyarc
Lorien
Apr 30 2008, 3:55pm
Post #25 of 33
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I really missed Bombadil! I love him!
Theres some good in this world, Mr. Frodo, and its worth fighting for.
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