Our Sponsor Sideshow Collectibles Send us News
Lord of the Rings Tolkien
Search Tolkien
Lord of The RingsTheOneRing.net - Forged By And For Fans Of JRR Tolkien
Lord of The Rings Serving Middle-Earth Since The First Age

Lord of the Rings Movie News - J.R.R. Tolkien
Do you enjoy the 100% volunteer, not for profit services of TheOneRing.net?
Consider a donation!

  Main Index   Search Posts   Who's Online   Log in
The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
I always wondered

QuiteShocked
The Shire


Jul 30 2017, 9:49pm

Post #1 of 23 (3228 views)
Shortcut
I always wondered Can't Post

If Peter Jackson had to wing it up until the point of the final battle scene, why did he make the whole thing more complicated for himself by putting in a bunch of stuff that wasn't even in the book?


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Jul 30 2017, 10:13pm

Post #2 of 23 (3161 views)
Shortcut
Winging it. [In reply to] Can't Post

I think that stories of Jackson 'winging it' are at least a bit exaggerated--and probably very exaggerated.

"Who I am is where I stand. Where I stand is where I fall.” -- The Doctor


QuiteShocked
The Shire


Jul 30 2017, 10:23pm

Post #3 of 23 (3159 views)
Shortcut
but [In reply to] Can't Post

he said it himself that he had no time to prepare after Deltoro left the project and that he was "winging it" for much of the filming, and that he was able to do so up until the final battle of the last installment. I just think he made it more difficult for himself by trying to add a lot of things that weren't in the book. I don't know. In that situation I would think following the book would have been the less challenging approach.


(This post was edited by QuiteShocked on Jul 30 2017, 10:24pm)


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Jul 30 2017, 10:33pm

Post #4 of 23 (3148 views)
Shortcut
Acting in Haste [In reply to] Can't Post

It was Jackson's own choice to go into production so quickly, but he was able to utilize some (maybe much) of the material that was developed under del Toro.

Once the first couple of phases of shooting were completed, Jackson did have a chance to catch his breath and organize his thoughts more firmly. Certainly, his team needed time to develop their own concepts and designs for the films. Smaug, for example, was redesigned from scratch. The shooting schedule did seem to get the better of Jackson in the end so that he had to develop his final ideas for the Battle of Five Armies for what would have been just the final re-shoots for the concluding film. Instead, that turned into a very substantial shoot.

"Who I am is where I stand. Where I stand is where I fall.” -- The Doctor

(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Jul 30 2017, 10:34pm)


QuiteShocked
The Shire


Jul 30 2017, 10:38pm

Post #5 of 23 (3140 views)
Shortcut
i wish he had more time to do a good job [In reply to] Can't Post

these movies were a mess. I think the rushed production schedule really hurt the final product. oh well.


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Jul 30 2017, 10:56pm

Post #6 of 23 (3132 views)
Shortcut
Well... [In reply to] Can't Post

...I just wish Peter Jackson had done a better job on the Hobbit films, period. But it would be the height of hubris for me to expect him to tailor the films to my tastes. I like them (for the most part); I just wish that I could hold them in the same esteem as his Lord of the Rings movies.

"Who I am is where I stand. Where I stand is where I fall.” -- The Doctor


Smaug the iron
Gondor


Jul 30 2017, 11:45pm

Post #7 of 23 (3121 views)
Shortcut
He did follow the book. [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
I would think following the book would have been the less challenging approach.

He did follow the book. Nearly every thing that was in the book are in the films. Peter only added new things from the Appendices (like Dol Guldur) plus some other things to make it better for the films.


QuiteShocked
The Shire


Jul 31 2017, 12:19am

Post #8 of 23 (3116 views)
Shortcut
what I mean by following the book [In reply to] Can't Post

is not including elements outside of that one book alone, including the appendices. But all of the other things that he just completely made up like Tauriel and Alfrid etc could be thrown out completely and the movies would have been much better off for it.


Ataahua
Superuser / Moderator


Jul 31 2017, 1:09am

Post #9 of 23 (3101 views)
Shortcut
Probably, yes. [In reply to] Can't Post

Tongue-in-cheek hyperbole is common among Kiwis - a way of injecting humour into stressful situations. I wouldn't take PJ's phrasing here literally.

Celebrimbor: "Pretty rings..."
Dwarves: "Pretty rings..."
Men: "Pretty rings..."
Sauron: "Mine's better."

"Ah, how ironic, the addictive qualities of Sauron’s master weapon led to its own destruction. Which just goes to show, kids - if you want two small and noble souls to succeed on a mission of dire importance... send an evil-minded beggar with them too." - Gandalf's Diaries, final par, by Ufthak.


Ataahua's stories


HOBBITFAN13
Lorien

Jul 31 2017, 12:00pm

Post #10 of 23 (3032 views)
Shortcut
I think Jackson an Del toro had two different versions [In reply to] Can't Post

Jackson wanted to make his film but because the studio rushed it he had to blend ideas with Del Toro's version causing abbot of a mess.


Noria
Gondor

Jul 31 2017, 12:08pm

Post #11 of 23 (3032 views)
Shortcut
Ataahua is probably right: exaggeration for humour [In reply to] Can't Post

Anyway, Peter Jackson's style of filmmaking is organic and chaotic – he has a vision, a plan and a screenplay but on the day will deviate from the latter two if a better idea comes up.

I don't agree that the way in which the book was amplified in these movies made them poorer. For me the additions added a great deal of depth and breadth to a rather slim story. That story has its own charms and meaning but it doesn't match up that well with LotR, especially the filmed version. As Smaug the iron said, almost everything from the book is in these movies; there is just more as well. I love Tauriel, thought Alfrid was great in DOC and enjoyed the enriched Thorin, Bard, Thranduil , Legolas and so on.

What I remember from back then is that the first portions of the movies were pretty well planned out but they had to start production before they did anything about the Battle of Five Armies sequence. PJ always knew that he had a break (in filming at least) after principle photography was completed so he had time to plan that out then.

I'm not sure it was PJ's choice to rush into production; that was certainly not my impression. Studios, the ultimate bosses, have expectations and planned release dates.


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Jul 31 2017, 2:35pm

Post #12 of 23 (3012 views)
Shortcut
Changes and Additions [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
He did follow the book. Nearly every thing that was in the book are in the films. Peter only added new things from the Appendices (like Dol Guldur) plus some other things to make it better for the films.


It was some (many?) of Jackson's alterations and additions, beyond his borrowings from the LotR Appendices to which I have a number of objections. Some of those make sense in the context of adapting book to film, others are real head-scratchers. For instance, in my opinion Jackson placed too much importance in maintaining a sense of immediacy, to the point where it hurt story logic. You can have events take place days and even weeks apart without making the story drag, but Jackson often preferred to compress time in a much more literal sense. There are a number of examples of this, but I'll just cite two: 1) Jackson's rush to get the company from Lake-town to Lonely Mountain in a ridiculously short span of time (roughly half a day); 2) The scouting expedition taken by Legolas and Tauriel to and from Gundabad seems to take a handful of days at most, but it should have taken several weeks to accomplish.

Then there are the Sand...erm...Were-worms, the tombs of the Ringwraiths, the romance between Kili and Tauriel, etc.

"Who I am is where I stand. Where I stand is where I fall.” -- The Doctor

(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Jul 31 2017, 2:44pm)


FarFromHome
Valinor


Jul 31 2017, 2:41pm

Post #13 of 23 (3010 views)
Shortcut
Agree that the rush wasn't PJ's decision [In reply to] Can't Post

I recall that there were huge pressures at the time caused by everyone wanting a piece of the action. The Hobbit suffered hugely from the expectations raised by LotR. The unions, the animal welfare groups, the studios, all were using The Hobbit as leverage to get whatever they wanted. The unions were threatening to shut it down, and the studio was threatening to move production out of NZ, and I seem to recall that one animal welfare group was trying to get the production fined because some chickens that had been bought two years earlier, when production was meant to begin, had since died! Considering the chickens we eat only live 6 months (and considering how badly they are treated while they are alive) it seemed a bit much to me.

All that was so stressful that it's not surprising PJ got ill, thus delaying the start even longer. It's amazing to me that the movies turned out as well as they did. I can see places that seem rushed or not as well thought-through as they might have been with more time. But The Hobbit was never going to get the creative space that LotR got, because nobody expected to make much money out of LotR, so they left PJ to get on with it. None of the money men knew or cared much about NZ at the time. Now they do, and the Eye has been drawn to it!

They went in, and Sam shut the door.
But even as he did so, he heard suddenly,
deep and unstilled,
the sigh and murmur of the Sea upon the shores of Middle-earth.
From the unpublished Epilogue to the Lord of the Rings



Darkstone
Immortal


Jul 31 2017, 2:58pm

Post #14 of 23 (3007 views)
Shortcut
Just the opposite. [In reply to] Can't Post

Like most directors, Jackson "shoots to edit". That is, they'll shoot tons of footage, multiple takes, and extra scenes, giving themselves lots of angles, coverage, and choices. Thus they can take the time in the editing suite to sort the movie out where there aren't dozens of people asking hundreds of questions every minute of every hour of every day like on set. So filming “a bunch of stuff that wasn’t even in the book” actually makes editing less complicated!

******************************************
The audacious proposal stirred his heart. And the stirring became a song, and it mingled with the songs of Gil-galad and Celebrian, and with those of Feanor and Fingon. The song-weaving created a larger song, and then another, until suddenly it was as if a long forgotten memory woke and for one breathtaking moment the Music of the Ainur revealed itself in all glory. He opened his lips to sing and share this song. Then he realized that the others would not understand. Not even Mithrandir given his current state of mind. So he smiled and simply said "A diversion.”


(This post was edited by Darkstone on Jul 31 2017, 3:09pm)


Darkstone
Immortal


Jul 31 2017, 3:03pm

Post #15 of 23 (3006 views)
Shortcut
The main problem was... [In reply to] Can't Post

...Jackson had a whole year to edit FOTR. He only had six months to edit AUJ. I get the strong impression that even with the expansion from two to three films he never caught up.

******************************************
The audacious proposal stirred his heart. And the stirring became a song, and it mingled with the songs of Gil-galad and Celebrian, and with those of Feanor and Fingon. The song-weaving created a larger song, and then another, until suddenly it was as if a long forgotten memory woke and for one breathtaking moment the Music of the Ainur revealed itself in all glory. He opened his lips to sing and share this song. Then he realized that the others would not understand. Not even Mithrandir given his current state of mind. So he smiled and simply said "A diversion.”


Kilidoescartwheels
Tol Eressea


Aug 1 2017, 5:09pm

Post #16 of 23 (2899 views)
Shortcut
Well that's your opinion [In reply to] Can't Post

and you are entitled to it, but not everyone is going to agree with that. Certainly a lot of people would agree with your opinion of Tauriel, but many of us were quite happy with her inclusion. I for one would have liked a lot less Alfrid, but can see the utility of including him. You know, not everyone liked his presentation of the Stone Giants, and they WERE in the book, which just goes to show there's a wide variety of taste and opinion out there.

Check out my new book here: https://www.amazon.com/dp/1521753377


glor
Rohan

Aug 1 2017, 7:49pm

Post #17 of 23 (2887 views)
Shortcut
LOTR had Tolkien fans as producers. [In reply to] Can't Post

Whereas, the Hobbit had bean counters.

My biggest problem with the Hobbit was the under use of the excellent Dwarven cast. There was some pretty serious talent cast as Dwarves, including one of Britain's most respected actors Ken Stott, The dwarves were sidelined in, DOS and BOFA for spectacle rather than plot.

AUJ, had a unique feel, it's own sense of self, an almost Gilliam Time Bandits quality that hinted at a set of films made from the point of view of Bilbo as the unreliable narrator. The opening scenes of Frodo and Bilbo helped too. It had an oddball Gilliamesque fairytale quality, that got lost in the two subsequent action oriented films that followed.

I think that follows what you have said, a sense that DOS and BOFA suffered because PJ needed more time, they felt like high quality, straight forward, direct narrative action films, that needed more time for an auteur to make his mark.

No mascara can survive BOTFA


FarFromHome
Valinor


Aug 2 2017, 9:41am

Post #18 of 23 (2847 views)
Shortcut
I like your comparison to Gilliam [In reply to] Can't Post

I bet he would sympathise with what happened to Jackson as well. He's had terrible trouble over the years getting the bean counters to let him get on with what he does best.

They went in, and Sam shut the door.
But even as he did so, he heard suddenly,
deep and unstilled,
the sigh and murmur of the Sea upon the shores of Middle-earth.
From the unpublished Epilogue to the Lord of the Rings



Paulo Gabriel
The Shire

Aug 3 2017, 1:38am

Post #19 of 23 (2814 views)
Shortcut
That doesn't matter... [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
...I just wish Peter Jackson had done a better job on the Hobbit films, period. But it would be the height of hubris for me to expect him to tailor the films to my tastes. I like them (for the most part); I just wish that I could hold them in the same esteem as his Lord of the Rings movies.


IMO the LOTRs could be much better than they were, as shown by criticism of Tolkien purists. Thus when people compare Hobbit with LOTR saying ''it's a shame it wasn't like LOTR'' I almost always end up with a reaction of ''Meh''.

Plus in my own humble opinion, DOS and BOFA were close if not matchnig the quality of LOTR (especially DOS and especially the extended editions).


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Aug 3 2017, 2:13am

Post #20 of 23 (2811 views)
Shortcut
Matters of Opinion [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Plus in my own humble opinion, DOS and BOFA were close if not matchnig the quality of LOTR (especially DOS and especially the extended editions).


In terms of production values I would agree, but there are other factors such as the scripting of the films and a greater emphasis in the Hobbit movies of crude humor and over-the-top action (Troll-mounted catapults; twirlie whirlies; etc.). The greatest such excess in the LotR films was probably Jackson's Army of the Scrubbing Bubbles.

"Who I am is where I stand. Where I stand is where I fall.” -- The Doctor

(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Aug 3 2017, 2:15am)


Noria
Gondor

Aug 5 2017, 2:33pm

Post #21 of 23 (2686 views)
Shortcut
In no particular order [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To

In Reply To
Plus in my own humble opinion, DOS and BOFA were close if not matchnig the quality of LOTR (especially DOS and especially the extended editions).


In terms of production values I would agree, but there are other factors such as the scripting of the films and a greater emphasis in the Hobbit movies of crude humor and over-the-top action (Troll-mounted catapults; twirlie whirlies; etc.). The greatest such excess in the LotR films was probably Jackson's Army of the Scrubbing Bubbles.


And the avalanche of skulls

… the pirate cameos

… the (literal) Eye of Sauron

… the Dwarf tossing

… the farting/belching

… flaming Denethor’s 100 yard dash

… Gandalf knocking down Denethor

… Aragorn defeating a gazillion Orcs at Amon Hen

… Legolas and the Oliphaunt

… “Meat is back on the menu, boys.”

And so on. Wink

I don't disagree that some of the action in TH series is heightened compared even to that of LotR, but to my mind it fits with the different tone PJ chose to employ in the later trilogy.

Otaku-sempai - I realize that Jackson's deviations from book canon geography and chronology bother you and admittedly he plays fast and loose with times and distances, sometimes even within his own movieverse. That doesn't bother me and I don't regard these changes as flaws in the movies because only Tolkien nerds like us would know or care and it makes no real difference to the stories being told or the quality of the films.


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Aug 5 2017, 8:34pm

Post #22 of 23 (2672 views)
Shortcut
I try not to think too much about the avalanche of skulls. [In reply to] Can't Post

Many of the items on your own list are minor offenses that I find easy to ignore, but I understand that some bother others more than then they do myself. I would even add to it with Legolas' shield surfing. Jackson certainly doubles down on the farts and belches in the Hobbit films; however, those only irritate me a bit while I'm actually watching those scenes. I don't dwell on them.

To put the time/distance matter into a historical perspective, the expedition of Legolas and Tauriel from Long Lake to Gundabad to Dale would be as though, in a Revolutionary War movie, scouts covered the distance from Boston, Massachusetts to Richmond, Virginia and back in only a handful of days if there were no roads; or, if a Roman soldier rode the length of England and Scotland and back in said amount of time.

"Who I am is where I stand. Where I stand is where I fall.” -- The Doctor

(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Aug 5 2017, 8:39pm)


Kelly of Water's Edge
Rohan

Aug 8 2017, 5:07pm

Post #23 of 23 (2571 views)
Shortcut
There were other issues as well. [In reply to] Can't Post

Considering his advanced age, Christopher Lee's scenes had to be filmed ASAP. As it was, I recall production had to go to him because he could no longer make the journey to New Zealand. We're lucky he was able to film before he passed.
Almost as urgent was filming before Ian McKellen aged out of playing a Gandalf who was younger than he was in LOTR. That was probably the primary reason why the fandom started to become frantic as the delays dragged on. Having to recast Gandalf would likely have been catastrophic considering his iconic LOTR performance.
Then, there were the returning Elven characters. I even remember someone posting on TORN an analysis of which actors had and had not aged since LOTR. I can imagine the comments if the delay had lasted much longer, as absurd and unfair as that sounds.
Reality was that the clock was ticking. The real problem in my opinion was that LOTR was filmed before The Hobbit - something which could not be undone.

 
 

Search for (options) Powered by Gossamer Forum v.1.2.3

home | advertising | contact us | back to top | search news | join list | Content Rating

This site is maintained and updated by fans of The Lord of the Rings, and is in no way affiliated with Tolkien Enterprises or the Tolkien Estate. We in no way claim the artwork displayed to be our own. Copyrights and trademarks for the books, films, articles, and other promotional materials are held by their respective owners and their use is allowed under the fair use clause of the Copyright Law. Design and original photography however are copyright © 1999-2012 TheOneRing.net. Binary hosting provided by Nexcess.net

Do not follow this link, or your host will be blocked from this site. This is a spider trap.