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QuiteShocked
The Shire
Jul 30 2017, 9:49pm
Post #1 of 23
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I always wondered
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If Peter Jackson had to wing it up until the point of the final battle
scene, why did he make the whole thing more complicated for himself by
putting in a bunch of stuff that wasn't even in the book?
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Jul 30 2017, 10:13pm
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I think that stories of Jackson 'winging it' are at least a bit exaggerated--and probably very exaggerated.
"Who I am is where I stand. Where I stand is where I fall.” -- The Doctor
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QuiteShocked
The Shire
Jul 30 2017, 10:23pm
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he said it himself that he had no time to prepare after Deltoro left the project and that he was "winging it" for much of the filming, and that he was able to do so up until the final battle of the last installment. I just think he made it more difficult for himself by trying to add a lot of things that weren't in the book. I don't know. In that situation I would think following the book would have been the less challenging approach.
(This post was edited by QuiteShocked on Jul 30 2017, 10:24pm)
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Jul 30 2017, 10:33pm
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It was Jackson's own choice to go into production so quickly, but he was able to utilize some (maybe much) of the material that was developed under del Toro.
Once the first couple of phases of shooting were completed, Jackson did have a chance to catch his breath and organize his thoughts more firmly. Certainly, his team needed time to develop their own concepts and designs for the films. Smaug, for example, was redesigned from scratch. The shooting schedule did seem to get the better of Jackson in the end so that he had to develop his final ideas for the Battle of Five Armies for what would have been just the final re-shoots for the concluding film. Instead, that turned into a very substantial shoot.
"Who I am is where I stand. Where I stand is where I fall.” -- The Doctor
(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Jul 30 2017, 10:34pm)
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QuiteShocked
The Shire
Jul 30 2017, 10:38pm
Post #5 of 23
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i wish he had more time to do a good job
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these movies were a mess. I think the rushed production schedule really hurt the final product. oh well.
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Jul 30 2017, 10:56pm
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...I just wish Peter Jackson had done a better job on the Hobbit films, period. But it would be the height of hubris for me to expect him to tailor the films to my tastes. I like them (for the most part); I just wish that I could hold them in the same esteem as his Lord of the Rings movies.
"Who I am is where I stand. Where I stand is where I fall.” -- The Doctor
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Smaug the iron
Gondor
Jul 30 2017, 11:45pm
Post #7 of 23
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I would think following the book would have been the less challenging approach. He did follow the book. Nearly every thing that was in the book are in the films. Peter only added new things from the Appendices (like Dol Guldur) plus some other things to make it better for the films.
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QuiteShocked
The Shire
Jul 31 2017, 12:19am
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what I mean by following the book
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is not including elements outside of that one book alone, including the
appendices. But all of the other things that he just completely made up
like Tauriel and Alfrid etc could be thrown out completely and the
movies would have been much better off for it.
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Ataahua
Forum Admin
/ Moderator
Jul 31 2017, 1:09am
Post #9 of 23
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Tongue-in-cheek hyperbole is common among Kiwis - a way of injecting humour into stressful situations. I wouldn't take PJ's phrasing here literally.
Celebrimbor: "Pretty rings..."
Dwarves: "Pretty rings..."
Men: "Pretty rings..."
Sauron: "Mine's better."
"Ah, how ironic, the addictive qualities of Sauron’s master weapon led to its own destruction. Which just goes to show, kids - if you want two small and noble souls to succeed on a mission of dire importance... send an evil-minded beggar with them too." - Gandalf's Diaries, final par, by Ufthak.
Ataahua's stories
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HOBBITFAN13
Lorien
Jul 31 2017, 12:00pm
Post #10 of 23
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I think Jackson an Del toro had two different versions
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Jackson wanted to make his film but because the studio rushed it he had to blend ideas with Del Toro's version causing abbot of a mess.
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Noria
Gondor
Jul 31 2017, 12:08pm
Post #11 of 23
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Ataahua is probably right: exaggeration for humour
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Anyway, Peter Jackson's style of filmmaking is organic and chaotic – he has a vision, a plan and a screenplay but on the day will deviate from the latter two if a better idea comes up.
I don't agree that the way in which the book was amplified in these movies made them poorer. For me the additions added a great deal of depth and breadth to a rather slim story. That story has its own charms and meaning but it doesn't match up that well with LotR, especially the filmed version. As Smaug the iron said, almost everything from the book is in these movies; there is just more as well. I love Tauriel, thought Alfrid was great in DOC and enjoyed the enriched Thorin, Bard, Thranduil , Legolas and so on.
What I remember from back then is that the first portions of the movies were pretty well planned out but they had to start production before they did anything about the Battle of Five Armies sequence. PJ always knew that he had a break (in filming at least) after principle photography was completed so he had time to plan that out then.
I'm not sure it was PJ's choice to rush into production; that was certainly not my impression. Studios, the ultimate bosses, have expectations and planned release dates.
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Jul 31 2017, 2:35pm
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He did follow the book. Nearly every thing that was in the book are in the films. Peter only added new things from the Appendices (like Dol Guldur) plus some other things to make it better for the films.
It was some (many?) of Jackson's alterations and additions, beyond his borrowings from the LotR Appendices to which I have a number of objections. Some of those make sense in the context of adapting book to film, others are real head-scratchers. For instance, in my opinion Jackson placed too much importance in maintaining a sense of immediacy, to the point where it hurt story logic. You can have events take place days and even weeks apart without making the story drag, but Jackson often preferred to compress time in a much more literal sense. There are a number of examples of this, but I'll just cite two: 1) Jackson's rush to get the company from Lake-town to Lonely Mountain in a ridiculously short span of time (roughly half a day); 2) The scouting expedition taken by Legolas and Tauriel to and from Gundabad seems to take a handful of days at most, but it should have taken several weeks to accomplish.
Then there are the Sand...erm...Were-worms, the tombs of the Ringwraiths, the romance between Kili and Tauriel, etc.
"Who I am is where I stand. Where I stand is where I fall.” -- The Doctor
(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Jul 31 2017, 2:44pm)
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FarFromHome
Valinor
Jul 31 2017, 2:41pm
Post #13 of 23
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Agree that the rush wasn't PJ's decision
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I recall that there were huge pressures at the time caused by everyone wanting a piece of the action. The Hobbit suffered hugely from the expectations raised by LotR. The unions, the animal welfare groups, the studios, all were using The Hobbit as leverage to get whatever they wanted. The unions were threatening to shut it down, and the studio was threatening to move production out of NZ, and I seem to recall that one animal welfare group was trying to get the production fined because some chickens that had been bought two years earlier, when production was meant to begin, had since died! Considering the chickens we eat only live 6 months (and considering how badly they are treated while they are alive) it seemed a bit much to me.
All that was so stressful that it's not surprising PJ got ill, thus delaying the start even longer. It's amazing to me that the movies turned out as well as they did. I can see places that seem rushed or not as well thought-through as they might have been with more time. But The Hobbit was never going to get the creative space that LotR got, because nobody expected to make much money out of LotR, so they left PJ to get on with it. None of the money men knew or cared much about NZ at the time. Now they do, and the Eye has been drawn to it!
They went in, and Sam shut the door.
But even as he did so, he heard suddenly,
deep and unstilled,
the sigh and murmur of the Sea upon the shores of Middle-earth.
From the unpublished Epilogue to the Lord of the Rings
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Darkstone
Immortal
Jul 31 2017, 2:58pm
Post #14 of 23
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Like most directors, Jackson "shoots to edit". That is, they'll shoot tons of footage, multiple takes, and extra scenes, giving themselves lots of angles, coverage, and choices. Thus they can take the time in the editing suite to sort the movie out where there aren't dozens of people asking hundreds of questions every minute of every hour of every day like on set. So filming “a bunch of stuff that wasn’t even in the book” actually makes editing less complicated!
******************************************
The audacious proposal stirred his heart. And the stirring became a song, and it mingled with the songs of Gil-galad and Celebrian, and with those of Feanor and Fingon. The song-weaving created a larger song, and then another, until suddenly it was as if a long forgotten memory woke and for one breathtaking moment the Music of the Ainur revealed itself in all glory. He opened his lips to sing and share this song. Then he realized that the others would not understand. Not even Mithrandir given his current state of mind. So he smiled and simply said "A diversion.”
(This post was edited by Darkstone on Jul 31 2017, 3:09pm)
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Darkstone
Immortal
Jul 31 2017, 3:03pm
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...Jackson had a whole year to edit FOTR. He only had six months to edit AUJ. I get the strong impression that even with the expansion from two to three films he never caught up.
******************************************
The audacious proposal stirred his heart. And the stirring became a song, and it mingled with the songs of Gil-galad and Celebrian, and with those of Feanor and Fingon. The song-weaving created a larger song, and then another, until suddenly it was as if a long forgotten memory woke and for one breathtaking moment the Music of the Ainur revealed itself in all glory. He opened his lips to sing and share this song. Then he realized that the others would not understand. Not even Mithrandir given his current state of mind. So he smiled and simply said "A diversion.”
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Kilidoescartwheels
Valinor
Aug 1 2017, 5:09pm
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and you are entitled to it, but not everyone is going to agree with that. Certainly a lot of people would agree with your opinion of Tauriel, but many of us were quite happy with her inclusion. I for one would have liked a lot less Alfrid, but can see the utility of including him. You know, not everyone liked his presentation of the Stone Giants, and they WERE in the book, which just goes to show there's a wide variety of taste and opinion out there.
Check out my new book here: https://www.amazon.com/dp/1521753377
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glor
Rohan
Aug 1 2017, 7:49pm
Post #17 of 23
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LOTR had Tolkien fans as producers.
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Whereas, the Hobbit had bean counters.
My biggest problem with the Hobbit was the under use of the excellent Dwarven cast. There was some pretty serious talent cast as Dwarves, including one of Britain's most respected actors Ken Stott, The dwarves were sidelined in, DOS and BOFA for spectacle rather than plot.
AUJ, had a unique feel, it's own sense of self, an almost Gilliam Time Bandits quality that hinted at a set of films made from the point of view of Bilbo as the unreliable narrator. The opening scenes of Frodo and Bilbo helped too. It had an oddball Gilliamesque fairytale quality, that got lost in the two subsequent action oriented films that followed.
I think that follows what you have said, a sense that DOS and BOFA suffered because PJ needed more time, they felt like high quality, straight forward, direct narrative action films, that needed more time for an auteur to make his mark.
No mascara can survive BOTFA
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FarFromHome
Valinor
Aug 2 2017, 9:41am
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I like your comparison to Gilliam
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I bet he would sympathise with what happened to Jackson as well. He's had terrible trouble over the years getting the bean counters to let him get on with what he does best.
They went in, and Sam shut the door.
But even as he did so, he heard suddenly,
deep and unstilled,
the sigh and murmur of the Sea upon the shores of Middle-earth.
From the unpublished Epilogue to the Lord of the Rings
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Paulo Gabriel
Lorien
Aug 3 2017, 1:38am
Post #19 of 23
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...I just wish Peter Jackson had done a better job on the Hobbit films, period. But it would be the height of hubris for me to expect him to tailor the films to my tastes. I like them (for the most part); I just wish that I could hold them in the same esteem as his Lord of the Rings movies.
IMO the LOTRs could be much better than they were, as shown by criticism of Tolkien purists. Thus when people compare Hobbit with LOTR saying ''it's a shame it wasn't like LOTR'' I almost always end up with a reaction of ''Meh''.
Plus in my own humble opinion, DOS and BOFA were close if not matchnig the quality of LOTR (especially DOS and especially the extended editions).
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Aug 3 2017, 2:13am
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Plus in my own humble opinion, DOS and BOFA were close if not matchnig the quality of LOTR (especially DOS and especially the extended editions).
In terms of production values I would agree, but there are other factors such as the scripting of the films and a greater emphasis in the Hobbit movies of crude humor and over-the-top action (Troll-mounted catapults; twirlie whirlies; etc.). The greatest such excess in the LotR films was probably Jackson's Army of the Scrubbing Bubbles.
"Who I am is where I stand. Where I stand is where I fall.” -- The Doctor
(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Aug 3 2017, 2:15am)
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Noria
Gondor
Aug 5 2017, 2:33pm
Post #21 of 23
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Plus in my own humble opinion, DOS and BOFA were close if not matchnig the quality of LOTR (especially DOS and especially the extended editions). In terms of production values I would agree, but there are other factors such as the scripting of the films and a greater emphasis in the Hobbit movies of crude humor and over-the-top action (Troll-mounted catapults; twirlie whirlies; etc.). The greatest such excess in the LotR films was probably Jackson's Army of the Scrubbing Bubbles.
And the avalanche of skulls
… the pirate cameos
… the (literal) Eye of Sauron
… the Dwarf tossing
… the farting/belching
… flaming Denethor’s 100 yard dash
… Gandalf knocking down Denethor
… Aragorn defeating a gazillion Orcs at Amon Hen
… Legolas and the Oliphaunt
… “Meat is back on the menu, boys.”
And so on. 
I don't disagree that some of the action in TH series is heightened compared even to that of LotR, but to my mind it fits with the different tone PJ chose to employ in the later trilogy.
Otaku-sempai - I realize that Jackson's deviations from book canon geography and chronology bother you and admittedly he plays fast and loose with times and distances, sometimes even within his own movieverse. That doesn't bother me and I don't regard these changes as flaws in the movies because only Tolkien nerds like us would know or care and it makes no real difference to the stories being told or the quality of the films.
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Aug 5 2017, 8:34pm
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I try not to think too much about the avalanche of skulls.
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Many of the items on your own list are minor offenses that I find easy to ignore, but I understand that some bother others more than then they do myself. I would even add to it with Legolas' shield surfing. Jackson certainly doubles down on the farts and belches in the Hobbit films; however, those only irritate me a bit while I'm actually watching those scenes. I don't dwell on them.
To put the time/distance matter into a historical perspective, the expedition of Legolas and Tauriel from Long Lake to Gundabad to Dale would be as though, in a Revolutionary War movie, scouts covered the distance from Boston, Massachusetts to Richmond, Virginia and back in only a handful of days if there were no roads; or, if a Roman soldier rode the length of England and Scotland and back in said amount of time.
"Who I am is where I stand. Where I stand is where I fall.” -- The Doctor
(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Aug 5 2017, 8:39pm)
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Kelly of Water's Edge
Rohan
Aug 8 2017, 5:07pm
Post #23 of 23
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There were other issues as well.
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Considering his advanced age, Christopher Lee's scenes had to be filmed ASAP. As it was, I recall production had to go to him because he could no longer make the journey to New Zealand. We're lucky he was able to film before he passed.
Almost as urgent was filming before Ian McKellen aged out of playing a Gandalf who was younger than he was in LOTR. That was probably the primary reason why the fandom started to become frantic as the delays dragged on. Having to recast Gandalf would likely have been catastrophic considering his iconic LOTR performance.
Then, there were the returning Elven characters. I even remember someone posting on TORN an analysis of which actors had and had not aged since LOTR. I can imagine the comments if the delay had lasted much longer, as absurd and unfair as that sounds.
Reality was that the clock was ticking. The real problem in my opinion was that LOTR was filmed before The Hobbit - something which could not be undone.
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