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Eruonen
Half-elven
Jul 20 2017, 6:36pm
Post #277 of 323
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Yes, men had been corrupted by Melkor / Morgoth
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"...Morgoth came to Men and incited them to worship him and turn away from Ilúvatar, and that they complied...." So, other than the Edain who opposed him a large number remained under his rule and Sauron picked up his mantle.
http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Men
(This post was edited by Eruonen on Jul 20 2017, 6:37pm)
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Eruonen
Half-elven
Jul 20 2017, 6:49pm
Post #278 of 323
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Shelob's Lair.....the end of book two is in sight.
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Gollum plays his best trick on Frodo and Sam. Tolkien notes that when Frodo uses the phial of Galadriel, and the elvish utterances come from his mouth....that Shelob had confronted such in the distant past and that there were other powers (evil) that she possessed that were not intimidated by his display. A daughter of Ungoliant - whose origins are somewhat obscure - either a maiar of lesser demon or even of a totally different class...."coming from the darkness above the skies of Arda". Whatever she was, she was capable of independent action without Melkor....able to destroy the wells of Varda...in fact, she was able to subdue Melkor and almost "killed him". So, the question is...what kind of power would her children have coming from such a powerful entity? Shelob certainly had some....but the details are missing. Sauron used her as a kind of watchdog. http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Ungoliant
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FarFromHome
Valinor
Jul 20 2017, 7:06pm
Post #279 of 323
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The Sword does come into Aragorn's reply to Boromir
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As Darkstone pointed out, the Dream spoke of where the Sword dwelt, not the Sword-bearer. Aragorn's words do mention the Sword:
“But my home, such as I have, is in the North. For here the heirs of Valandil have ever dwelt in long line unbroken from father unto son for many generations. Our days have darkened, and we have dwindled; but ever the Sword has passed to a new keeper. ”
I didn't remember that mention of the Sword until I just looked it up, but it certainly gives credence to Darkstone's theory! It sounds like the Sword is closely related to the dwelling-places of the heirs of Valandil, in "the North".
On the other hand, as you say, by "the North" Aragorn may mean nothing more than that the North Kingdom is his homeland, in contrast to the journeys he has just been describing in the sentence before, to the lands of the southern hemisphere "where the stars are strange". Rivendell itself is in "the North" by that definition, and he does use the word "here", not "there" when referring to his home in the quote above, so maybe he really does just mean Rivendell.
Plus, we know from the Tale of Aragorn and Arwen that the Sword was in Elrond's keeping until Aragorn reached his twentieth birthday. In fact it seems even to be in Elrond's gift, since he gives Aragorn the Sword and the Ring of Barahir at that time, but withholds the Sceptre of Annuminas because Aragorn has "yet to earn it". So perhaps Elrond was the keeper of the Sword in loco parentis until Aragorn reached his majority? After that, who knows? A hidden fastness or just the hidden valley of Rivendell? Eruonen's reference to the hidden fastness is intriguing, but since it seems to be the home of Aragorn's maternal grandparents it presumably isn't relevant to the male line through which the Sword passed. So I still think Rivendell is the simplest answer to the riddle.
They went in, and Sam shut the door.
But even as he did so, he heard suddenly,
deep and unstilled,
the sigh and murmur of the Sea upon the shores of Middle-earth.
From the unpublished Epilogue to the Lord of the Rings
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FarFromHome
Valinor
Jul 20 2017, 7:16pm
Post #280 of 323
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Religious means of controlling a population? That's certainly a use of religion that I didn't know Tolkien had put into his story. It sounds a lot like what the Romans did when they conquered the tribes of Europe, turning the religious beliefs of the locals to their advantage by imposing a new god, the Roman Emperor.
They went in, and Sam shut the door.
But even as he did so, he heard suddenly,
deep and unstilled,
the sigh and murmur of the Sea upon the shores of Middle-earth.
From the unpublished Epilogue to the Lord of the Rings
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Jul 20 2017, 7:31pm
Post #283 of 323
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"But my home, such as I have, is in the North. For here the heirs of Valandil have ever dwelt in long lin unbroken from father unto son for many generations."
He may have, along with the other Dunedain, a small structure / even village (they have to live somewhere) and it may be among old Arthedain ruins etc. We don't know specifically. But it seems there is some place where he has a residence to the North of Rivendell.
1. Aragorn could simply be referring to Rivendell where he was raised.
2 Aragorn might mean the North of Eriador in general, either Arthedain or the whole of the Kingdom of Arnor. However, at this time both Fornost Erain and Annúminas are abandoned and in ruins, though the Rangers may visit those sites from time to time.
3. Aragorn might be referring to the region between the rivers Hoarwell and Bruinen south of Imladris, known as the Angle, where the folk of the Dúnedain seem to have dwelt since the fall of Arthedain to the beginning of the Fourth Age.
I personally go for option #1 because this is the closest that Aragorn has to a permanent home until his mother departs to be with her own folk (probably after TA 2980*). You are free to disagree with my conclusion, but that is how I interpret Aragorn's statement.
* Robert Foster, in The Complete Guide to Middle-earth, places Gilraen's return to her own folk earlier, but I disagree according to my own reading of "The Tale of Aragorn and Arwen".
"Who I am is where I stand. Where I stand is where I fall.” -- The Doctor
(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Jul 20 2017, 7:34pm)
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Darkstone
Immortal
Jul 20 2017, 7:56pm
Post #284 of 323
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I'm not seeing that. In fact I refuse to see that.
******************************************
"You have my sword."
"And my bow."
"And my axe."
"And my giant flying eagles."
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Eruonen
Half-elven
Jul 20 2017, 8:04pm
Post #285 of 323
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Aragorn was IN Rivendell when he spoke so
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IF he was referring to Rivendell as his home he would not have said my home, such at it is, is in the North. Obviously, to me at least, a different location.
He certainly looks to Rivendell as an early home...but once he has been living among his people, I assume he has established some kind of "home" with them - wherever in the wilds of the North that may be. That could mean "home" in the sense of belonging rather than a physical structure, but even the Dunedain must live under shelter.
(This post was edited by Eruonen on Jul 20 2017, 8:06pm)
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Darkstone
Immortal
Jul 20 2017, 8:13pm
Post #286 of 323
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So it's like Reverend's astute argument about balrog wings!
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That is, before the balrog stepped out onto the bridge it had no wings, but after it stepped out onto the bridge it *did* have wings!
Similarly, before Aragorn came to the Council of Elrond he didn't dwell in Imladris, but after he came to the council he *did* dwell in Imladris!
Brilliant!
******************************************
"You have my sword."
"And my bow."
"And my axe."
"And my giant flying eagles."
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Jul 20 2017, 8:19pm
Post #287 of 323
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Peter Jackson's Aragorn is a bit broken.
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So Aragorn is broken? I'm not seeing that. In fact I refuse to see that.
Ignoring the films, I never stated that the metaphor was absolutely perfect. However, the line can refer to the seemingly broken lineage of Elendil (from the perspective of Gondor). The poem as a whole is undoubtedly meant to bring Boromir to Imladris. Aragorn's own words need not refer to Rivendell exclusively, though it is also part of the North.
"Who I am is where I stand. Where I stand is where I fall.” -- The Doctor
(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Jul 20 2017, 8:28pm)
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Eruonen
Half-elven
Jul 20 2017, 8:21pm
Post #288 of 323
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Aragorn was raised in Rivendell and then went among his people.
One can have a childhood home and then another upon maturity.
I am sure he spent time in Rivendell over the years on a regular basis.
Why is it difficult to understand he has a home in the North as he says?
(This post was edited by Eruonen on Jul 20 2017, 8:24pm)
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FarFromHome
Valinor
Jul 20 2017, 8:25pm
Post #289 of 323
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But he does say his "home, such as I have", is "here".
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“But my home, such as I have, is in the North. For here the heirs of Valandil have ever dwelt..."
I think what Aragorn is saying to Boromir (right after talking about all the journeys he has taken into the South), is that his homeland, the place where he belongs, is the North. And that he has no real home of his own, but the nearest thing he has to a home ("such as I have"), is right here - in Arnor generally, but in Rivendell specifically.
They went in, and Sam shut the door.
But even as he did so, he heard suddenly,
deep and unstilled,
the sigh and murmur of the Sea upon the shores of Middle-earth.
From the unpublished Epilogue to the Lord of the Rings
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Jul 20 2017, 8:26pm
Post #290 of 323
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Yes, that is one interpretation
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IF he was referring to Rivendell as his home he would not have said my home, such at it is, is in the North. Obviously, to me at least, a different location.
He certainly looks to Rivendell as an early home...but once he has been living among his people, I assume he has established some kind of "home" with them - wherever in the wilds of the North that may be. That could mean "home" in the sense of belonging rather than a physical structure, but even the Dunedain must live under shelter.
And I allowed for this possible meaning. Rivendell is at least Aragorn's home for the purpose of a solution to Boromir's dream, if we equate the Chieftain of the Rangers to the Sword that was broken. When Aragorn speaks he may well have a more general meaning in mind. I will point out that the North of Eriador does include Rivendell (though Imladris is not counted as part of the North Kingdom). Rivendell is at the very least one of Aragorn's homes. At this time the Dúnedain as a folk are in hiding and probably do not have any permanent settlements--or very few small ones at most.
"Who I am is where I stand. Where I stand is where I fall.” -- The Doctor
(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Jul 20 2017, 8:34pm)
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Darkstone
Immortal
Jul 20 2017, 8:38pm
Post #291 of 323
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Ignoring the films, I never stated that the metaphor was absolutely perfect.
It is indeed a metaphor substantially less supported than balrog wings.
However, the line can refer to the seemingly broken lineage of Elendil
But Elendil's lineage *isn't* broken, which is why Aragorn is isildur's Heir.
(from the perspective of Gondor).
But the dream would seem to come from a higher power who wouldn't have that perspective.
******************************************
"You have my sword."
"And my bow."
"And my axe."
"And my giant flying eagles."
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Eruonen
Half-elven
Jul 20 2017, 8:40pm
Post #292 of 323
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I am amazed, but then again, I should not be surprised at the various
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interpretations of a sentence that upon first reading seemed clear to me - rather simple.
"Here" vs "There"
For here, the heirs of Valandil have ever dwelt in a long line unbroken....
Where did the heirs of Valandil dwell?
https://en.wikipedia.org/...of_the_D.C3.BAnedain
"All of Aranarth's successors were raised in Rivendell by Elrond while their fathers lived in the wild; each was given a name with the Kingly prefix of Ar(a)-, to signify his right to the Kingship of Arnor.[1]
Childhood home = Rivendell....mature home...Arnor.
"Arador (2820–2930) succeeded his father Argonui in 2912. This was after the Fell Winter, and great floods devastated Enedwaith and Minhiriath. The city of Tharbad at the southern end of the former realm of Arnor was ruined and deserted. "
"Aragorn II (T.A. 2931-F.A. 120), one of the major characters in The Lord of the Rings, was born in T.A. 2931. His father was killed two years later. He came of age in T.A. 2951, and assumed lordship of the Dúnedain of Arnor."
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Darkstone
Immortal
Jul 20 2017, 8:40pm
Post #293 of 323
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I think you misunderstand my post.
I was referring to your subject heading Aragorn was IN Rivendell when he spoke so, which I found a good (and clever) argument..
******************************************
"You have my sword."
"And my bow."
"And my axe."
"And my giant flying eagles."
(This post was edited by Darkstone on Jul 20 2017, 8:46pm)
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Eruonen
Half-elven
Jul 20 2017, 8:50pm
Post #294 of 323
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Ok, I was not getting your analogy.
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Darkstone
Immortal
Jul 20 2017, 9:01pm
Post #295 of 323
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"What will we do after we tear down the establishment? Groove on the rubble for while."
-Jerry Rubin, American social activist, anti-war leader, counterculture icon, and, later, stockbroker for controversial firm John Muir & Co.
******************************************
"You have my sword."
"And my bow."
"And my axe."
"And my giant flying eagles."
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Eruonen
Half-elven
Jul 20 2017, 9:14pm
Post #296 of 323
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Another blank stare moment! ;)
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Anyway, we have some Webs to get through......
(This post was edited by Eruonen on Jul 20 2017, 9:16pm)
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FarFromHome
Valinor
Jul 20 2017, 9:21pm
Post #297 of 323
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English kings and the Loire Valley
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Aragorn *is* the Chieftain of the Dúnedain and for him to dwell in Rivendell would be like the King of England taking up residence in the Loire Valley. Well he is a king in exile. Maybe he's bit like Alfred the Great, living in the wilderness during the resistance to the Vikings, before restoring London as the royal seat.
Though (as I suspect you know!) several Kings of England did live (and die) in the Loire valley. Not because they were in exile, but just because England was only an appendage of their more important territories such as Anjou, the region around the Loire Valley.
I've always wanted to visit the abbey of Fontevraud, where Henry and his wife Eleanor of Aquitaine, and his son Richard I, are buried. The tombs still seem to have their medieval colouring. I do hope I get there one day to see for myself.
They went in, and Sam shut the door.
But even as he did so, he heard suddenly,
deep and unstilled,
the sigh and murmur of the Sea upon the shores of Middle-earth.
From the unpublished Epilogue to the Lord of the Rings
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Jul 20 2017, 9:25pm
Post #298 of 323
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I really think that you may be being too literal, Darkstone. But be that as it may, we might just have to agree to disagree.
But Elendil's lineage *isn't* broken, which is why Aragorn is isildur's Heir.
No, not in reality. But the line is broken according to Boromir's perspective. Yes, the vision does come from Eru or one of the Valar; however, it needed to be couched in imagery that Boromir could understand.
"Who I am is where I stand. Where I stand is where I fall.” -- The Doctor
(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Jul 20 2017, 9:33pm)
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Darkstone
Immortal
Jul 20 2017, 9:29pm
Post #299 of 323
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In reference to your subject line It does make you wonder what the end game was for Sauron had he won.
******************************************
"You have my sword."
"And my bow."
"And my axe."
"And my giant flying eagles."
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Jul 20 2017, 9:30pm
Post #300 of 323
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Arnor is a big place, Eruonen, and has no capital at the time of the War of the Ring. If Aragorn had to specify a single site as his home, he might have to point to Rivendell. However, as has been said, he might just mean the North of Eriador collectively. I'm fine with that interpretation.
"Who I am is where I stand. Where I stand is where I fall.” -- The Doctor
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