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Eruonen
Half-elven
Jun 2 2017, 4:17am
Post #27 of 47
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Certainly an area I would like to visit if I could transport myself into
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his imagined world. I love the edges of maps, those forgotten peninsulas and shores that are off the beaten middle earth tracks. Basically, unspoiled by Sauron.
IF Gondor fell, I would expect mass exodus of survivors to flee first toward Rohan and then west into this region. Others in the southern fiefs would move west south of the White Mountains and would enter Harlindon. For awhile, I can see potential defensive hold outs but certainly their backs would be against the shore.
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SirDennisC
Half-elven
Jun 2 2017, 4:44am
Post #28 of 47
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Was about to post a similar theory
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Glad I read your post before doing so, heh.
I agree that there's a parallel between the brown lands (or the failing splendour of Middle-earth in general) and the 'lame king' narratives of Arthuriana. Vague of no, it's an excellent theory, especially as the lands are at the foot of Gondor.
Though, as we learn later, decay and ruin was crept into the chief cities of the 'World of Men, which might be a reflection of OT Biblical stories -- JRRT's assertions about allegory notwithstanding.
(This post was edited by SirDennisC on Jun 2 2017, 4:52am)
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FarFromHome
Valinor
Jun 2 2017, 8:22am
Post #29 of 47
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You might very well think that...
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but if you did you'd be a real-world politician and you'd be falling into the trap that real-world politicians usually fall into: short term thinking.
I think the point of the Ring is that there's no level of "goodness" that would give you the strength to destroy the Ring. Frodo was the closest anyone came to being "good" in the sense required - entirely willing to sacrifice himself, and yet without any ambition at all to rule over others. And he couldn't do it. He didn't even try to use the Ring to impose his will, except for a couple of rare moments when he needed to control Gollum, but even those brief moments noticeably weaken Frodo's ability to resist the Ring.
So yes, maybe "near term" goals could be achieved, but then you're trapped in the Ring's insidious, inescapable grip. You might have won the battle but you'd have lost the war. As you say, some would settle for that. But I couldn't possibly comment...
They went in, and Sam shut the door.
But even as he did so, he heard suddenly,
deep and unstilled,
the sigh and murmur of the Sea upon the shores of Middle-earth.
From the unpublished Epilogue to the Lord of the Rings
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Eruonen
Half-elven
Jun 2 2017, 2:27pm
Post #30 of 47
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I am a little surprised that many in the company want to go to Minas Tirith
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The whole point of the company was to go with the ring bearer as far as they could while his mission was to destroy The Ring. Why any would urge him to Minas Tirith (and knowing the risks of seizure by Boromir / Denethor) seems odd. Were they thinking of a short stay to consider further action into Mordor? I am not sure of the purpose, other than delaying the inevitable, of such a destination.
Sam, of course, speaks the wisest. He knows Frodo is going to Morder and will try to go alone.
After Boromir re-appears, the company is scrambling to find Frodo.
Meanwhile, Frodo has found the Seat on Amen Hen and has had visions - both current and near future it would seem. The "Eye" is felt and is searching. Frodo feels its "shadow" pass over.
In this scene, we at least get an idea why Peter Jackson shows The Eye as he does.
(This post was edited by Eruonen on Jun 2 2017, 2:28pm)
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Jun 2 2017, 2:47pm
Post #31 of 47
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IF Gondor fell, I would expect mass exodus of survivors to flee first toward Rohan and then west into this region. Others in the southern fiefs would move west south of the White Mountains and would enter Harlindon. For awhile, I can see potential defensive hold outs but certainly their backs would be against the shore.
If Gondor fell then the forces of Mordor would be dogging the fleeing survivors with the goal of wiping out the last vestiges of Númenor and the remaining Elven strongholds. Círdan probably would take in the refugees, but--unable to take them to the Undying Lands--the best that he could do in the long term would be to transport the surviving Men of Gondor and Eriador to one of the uninhabited continents beyond the shores of Middle-earth. The surviving Elves who didn't simply go into hiding to fade or be discovered and destroyed could attempt to sail to Aman.
The Dwarvs would probably try to ride out the troubles in their own halls. The Hobbits might have no choice but to leave with the Men of the West.
"He who lies artistically, treads closer to the truth than ever he knows." -- Favorite proverb of the wizard Ningauble of the Seven Eyes
(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Jun 2 2017, 2:50pm)
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Darkstone
Immortal
Jun 2 2017, 3:16pm
Post #32 of 47
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Once the rich lands of their long-time rival Gondor were taken the Easterlings and Southrons might not be too interested in continuing on into the poorer land of Rohan and the wilderness beyond. Similarly we’ve seen how easily Sauron’s orcs self-destruct over a little bit of booty. The treasure vaults of Minas Tirith could span a bloodbath greater than that of Cirith Ungol.
So could Sauron maintain a viable pursuit of Western forces all the way to Lindon? Or would his coalition have disintegrated into impotency before he even got to the Gap of Rohan?
******************************************
Once Radagast dreamt he was a moth, a moth flitting and fluttering around, happy with himself and doing as he pleased. He didn't know he was Radagast. Suddenly he woke up and there he was, solid and unmistakably Radagast. But he didn't know if he was Radagast who had dreamt he was a moth, or a moth dreaming he was Radagast. Between Radagast and a moth there must be some distinction! But really, there isn't, because he's actually Aiwendil dreaming he's both Radagast *and* a moth!
-From Radagasti: The Moth Dream
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Eruonen
Half-elven
Jun 2 2017, 3:37pm
Post #33 of 47
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The company is broken up - I will pause for two weeks - vacation time ;)
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Sam, wisely determines Frodo's likely course and catches him "while wearing the ring" in the boat. For Frodo to wear the ring is a very hazardous thing. He opens up himself to Sauron's searching eye. But, he takes it off before crossing the river. So Sauron may conclude they are on the river heading to Minas Tirith - that at least is what he will come to believe.
In mid June I will crack open The Two Towers....."Aragorn sped on up the hill......"
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Eruonen
Half-elven
Jun 2 2017, 4:08pm
Post #34 of 47
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There may have been a pause to consolidate their victory, but
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Sauron would know the allies were doomed to defeat. He could take whatever time he needed as his opponents could barely survive in a refugee state without ready refuge etc. Once Gondor fell....Lorien, Rivendell, Dale/Erebor and finally Bree / Shire would be assaulted with vigor. Any setbacks would be brushed aside and his full force would bear on them. Hmm, Tom Bombadil an island of resistance.
Any opposition would be at best small delaying actions. Supplies of both necessary items and weapons would be very finite - whatever was grabbed for the retreat - rout. Maybe a fortified Grey Havens and maybe some refuge in the mountains (possibly even dwarf assistance but that is questionable) would hold out a short while. An awful lot of boats would have to be constructed - impossible to move the entire refugee population. Afraid it would all end in a slaughter and the only survivors would be like Hurin.
(This post was edited by Eruonen on Jun 2 2017, 4:10pm)
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Eruonen
Half-elven
Jun 2 2017, 4:31pm
Post #35 of 47
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Another instance where Aragorn notes that other powers are at work
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with Frodo's decision. So, as much as the presence of the divine are said to be absent from LOTR there is still a definite presence - not of an organized religion - but of the divine powers that have subtle influences on the world.
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Darkstone
Immortal
Jun 2 2017, 4:45pm
Post #36 of 47
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“There at Pelargir lay the main fleet of Umbar, fifty great ships and smaller vessels beyond count.”
-The Last Debate
Considering Great Britain had around 100 total ships-of-the-line (great ships) to blockade France during the Napoleonic Wars (combined North Sea, Baltic, Channel, and Mediterranean fleets), I’d say the Corsairs had more enough strength to blockade the Grey Havens. Of course the question is what incentive would the Corsairs have to do so? Would the refugees have sufficient wealth to make it worth the effort?
But again, as far as the land approach goes, what forces could Sauron bring to bear if the Easterlings and Southrons went home and his orcs decimated themselves in internal squabbling? "Oft evil will shall evil mar" and all that.
******************************************
Once Radagast dreamt he was a moth, a moth flitting and fluttering around, happy with himself and doing as he pleased. He didn't know he was Radagast. Suddenly he woke up and there he was, solid and unmistakably Radagast. But he didn't know if he was Radagast who had dreamt he was a moth, or a moth dreaming he was Radagast. Between Radagast and a moth there must be some distinction! But really, there isn't, because he's actually Aiwendil dreaming he's both Radagast *and* a moth!
-From Radagasti: The Moth Dream
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Eruonen
Half-elven
Jun 2 2017, 4:47pm
Post #37 of 47
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I don't think Sauron would lose his control over his forces.
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It appears they were subject to his will.
If Sauron was strategic, he could indeed use a naval based strategy to move forces faster than the refugees could walk and land them behind them anywhere along the Harlindon coast...or up the Gulf of Lune. They would be systematically crushed.
(This post was edited by Eruonen on Jun 2 2017, 4:51pm)
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FarFromHome
Valinor
Jun 2 2017, 7:08pm
Post #38 of 47
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I guess it's tempting to put off the evil day.
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The whole point of the company was to go with the ring bearer as far as they could... Well, not really "as far as they could". Just as far as their roads lay together. As Elrond announced in The Ring Goes South, the plan was that everyone except Gandalf, Frodo and Sam would leave the Company at points along the road and go their own ways (and Merry and Pippin weren't meant to go along at all):
'[Legolas and Gimli] are willing to go at least to the passes of the Mountains, and maybe beyond. For men you shall have Aragorn son of Arathorn'...‘Strider!’ cried Frodo....'I would have begged you to come,...only I thought you were going to Minas Tirith with Boromir.’
‘I am,’ said Aragorn. ... But your road and our road lie together for many hundreds of miles. Therefore Boromir will also be in the Company.”
So Legolas and Gimli have already gone further with Frodo than they planned (Gimli surely wouldn't have chosen to go to Lothlorien). Aragorn and Boromir would have left for Minas Tirith by now too if Gandalf hadn't fallen, in fact they would probably have set out direct from Lothlorien (that's why the boats were so gratefully received - they gave the Company a chance to stay together a bit longer). Now everyone is torn - they all want to go and do what they had planned, yet they don't want to abandon Frodo. Which I think is why they are tempted to try to get Frodo to go with them to Minas Tirith - that, and the fact that going into Mordor is such a horrific thought for everyone.
Why any would urge him to Minas Tirith (and knowing the risks of seizure by Boromir / Denethor) seems odd. They don't know the risks yet. They haven't noticed that Boromir has slipped away, and they have no reason to worry about the wise Steward Denethor. Heading to Minas Tirith kicks the can down the road, and after all, Frodo can still leave from there, can't he? (Turns out that would have been a big problem but they don't know that yet!)
I think hearing everyone else's thoughts and fears in this scene makes us appreciate more clearly what Frodo is going through himself as he tries to steel himself for the horrors he knows he will have to face.
They went in, and Sam shut the door.
But even as he did so, he heard suddenly,
deep and unstilled,
the sigh and murmur of the Sea upon the shores of Middle-earth.
From the unpublished Epilogue to the Lord of the Rings
(This post was edited by FarFromHome on Jun 2 2017, 7:09pm)
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Darkstone
Immortal
Jun 2 2017, 7:46pm
Post #39 of 47
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But that's exactly how he lost. //
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******************************************
Once Radagast dreamt he was a moth, a moth flitting and fluttering around, happy with himself and doing as he pleased. He didn't know he was Radagast. Suddenly he woke up and there he was, solid and unmistakably Radagast. But he didn't know if he was Radagast who had dreamt he was a moth, or a moth dreaming he was Radagast. Between Radagast and a moth there must be some distinction! But really, there isn't, because he's actually Aiwendil dreaming he's both Radagast *and* a moth!
-From Radagasti: The Moth Dream
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Eruonen
Half-elven
Jun 2 2017, 7:51pm
Post #40 of 47
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When he lost the ring - destroyed - yes....not before.
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(This post was edited by Eruonen on Jun 2 2017, 7:51pm)
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Darkstone
Immortal
Jun 2 2017, 7:58pm
Post #41 of 47
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When the orcs of Cirith Ungol went out of control. /
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******************************************
Once Radagast dreamt he was a moth, a moth flitting and fluttering around, happy with himself and doing as he pleased. He didn't know he was Radagast. Suddenly he woke up and there he was, solid and unmistakably Radagast. But he didn't know if he was Radagast who had dreamt he was a moth, or a moth dreaming he was Radagast. Between Radagast and a moth there must be some distinction! But really, there isn't, because he's actually Aiwendil dreaming he's both Radagast *and* a moth!
-From Radagasti: The Moth Dream
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Eruonen
Half-elven
Jun 2 2017, 9:23pm
Post #42 of 47
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As long as the Nazgul are around they can command - however -
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yes, left to their own devices they can be like herding cats.
He has 9 Nazgul so each could theoretically command a force.
Plus, he has more trustworthy orcs and men.
(This post was edited by Eruonen on Jun 2 2017, 9:24pm)
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Entwife Wandlimb
Lorien
Jun 4 2017, 7:26pm
Post #43 of 47
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“’Despair, or folly?’ said Gandalf. ‘It is not despair, for despair is only for those who see the end beyond all doubt. We do not. It is wisdom to recognize necessity, when all other courses have been weighed, though as folly it may appear to those who cling to false hope.”
Considering Frodo could not even throw the Ring into his own fire at Bag End, it's hard to imagine he or Gandalf thinks he can throw it into the Cracks of Doom.
Gandalf also says to Pippin, "There never was much hope," he answered. "Just a fool's hope, as I have been told.”
But he tells Frodo there is hope beacuse he was meant to find the Ring. Frodo doesn't find that an encouraging thought. :)
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Hamfast Gamgee
Tol Eressea
Jun 11 2017, 11:56pm
Post #44 of 47
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I don't know if Tolkien is testing the readers or the characters
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In how much they have been paying attention to the quest's main purpose. Because of course, really there is no debate. As both Frodo and Sam realize Minas Tirith is absolutely useless in terms of destroying the Ring. If Rivendell and Tom Bombadil cannot hold of the might of Mordor then Minas Tirith certainly isn't. I suppose the only real debate is who should go with the Ring-bearer and who should go to help Gondor. I can understand Aragorn's dilemma. He is needed in Gondor but needed by Frodo as well. Not knowing of Gollum been a wild-card if anyone does know of a way into Mordor unchecked I would imagine it is Aragorn.
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Hamfast Gamgee
Tol Eressea
Jun 12 2017, 12:07am
Post #45 of 47
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True hearted Men will not be corrupted
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Or so that is what Boromir believes. It might be so for Elves or Wizards that they cannot risk using such a thing but surely a man or even lord of power could do so. And coming from a nation of people that had been long tested and battered by evil as well. All right he proves to be wrong, but I think one can understand that viewpoint. I must say that I don't think that Denethor's made a lot of sense. Keep the Ring but not use it. hmmmmmmm.
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InTheChair
Rohan
Jun 13 2017, 6:46pm
Post #46 of 47
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Hiding was also the siggestion of some of the elves at the counsil, or sending it to Bombadil
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Difficult to say what Denethor had in mind, but if he truly believed he could have achieved a stalemate if Sauron was denied the ring, then his reasoning could have made sense if he believed himself capable of withstanding the ring. Though the reader of course knows that it would only have led to him using it.
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No One in Particular
Lorien
Jun 17 2017, 3:37am
Post #47 of 47
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Or so that is what Boromir believes. It might be so for Elves or Wizards that they cannot risk using such a thing but surely a man or even lord of power could do so. And coming from a nation of people that had been long tested and battered by evil as well. All right he proves to be wrong, but I think one can understand that viewpoint. I must say that I don't think that Denethor's made a lot of sense. Keep the Ring but not use it. hmmmmmmm.
His viewpoint is completely understandable. Obviously, the stalwart Men of Gondor would be strong enough to resist the temptations of the Ring. They are the Men of Gondor, defenders of the realms of Middle-earth, without whom Sauron would have conquered all!
Unfortunately, it is also symptomatic of the pride that leaves him completely vulnerable to the Ring's influence. The more certain you are that you will be strong enough to overcome, the harder you will fall when the time inevitably comes.
While you live, shine
Have no grief at all
Life exists only for a short while
And time demands an end.
Seikilos Epitaph
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