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The Last Ringbearer?

OldestDaughter
Rohan


Apr 28 2017, 12:22pm

Post #1 of 16 (4229 views)
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The Last Ringbearer? Can't Post

Ok, this might be really old news, but today was the first day I saw something about thisEvil. I saw looking on Pinterest and there was some LOTR's trivia about a book called the Last Ringbearer written by a Russian author about the War of the Ring during Sauron's point of view.


I just wanted to put this out there to see what you all say about it. Smile




"Keen, heart-piercing was her song as the song of the lark that rises from the gates of night and pours its voice among the dying stars, seeing the sun behind the walls of the world; and the song of Lúthien released the bonds of winter, and the frozen waters spoke, and flowers sprang from the cold earth where her feet had passed."


grammaboodawg
Immortal


Apr 28 2017, 1:01pm

Post #2 of 16 (4183 views)
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*eyebrows shoot up* Really? [In reply to] Can't Post

I hadn't heard about it, either. That would definitely be an interesting POV... if done well ;)

I'm going to check this out! Thanks for the heads-up OldestDaughter!


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OldestDaughter
Rohan


Apr 28 2017, 1:16pm

Post #3 of 16 (4180 views)
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I was surprised too! [In reply to] Can't Post

After looking up on Pinterest, I went to Wikipedia and read more about it. Sadly I couldn't find it where it was available in English on Amazon but still it looks cool.Smile




"Keen, heart-piercing was her song as the song of the lark that rises from the gates of night and pours its voice among the dying stars, seeing the sun behind the walls of the world; and the song of Lúthien released the bonds of winter, and the frozen waters spoke, and flowers sprang from the cold earth where her feet had passed."


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Apr 28 2017, 1:32pm

Post #4 of 16 (4183 views)
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Unauthorized fanfic [In reply to] Can't Post

Yes, I've heard of this. The book dismisses Tolkien's account of the War of the Ring as Gondorian propaganda and a smear campaign against Sauron and Lord Melkor.

"He who lies artistically, treads closer to the truth than ever he knows." -- Favorite proverb of the wizard Ningauble of the Seven Eyes


OldestDaughter
Rohan


Apr 28 2017, 1:39pm

Post #5 of 16 (4178 views)
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I was reading about it a bit [In reply to] Can't Post

And it definitely had some facts wrong.I was surprised that it got published. Usually other than the Professor or Christopher Tolkien, no other books about Tolkien's universe have been published. (Correct me if I'm wrong. ) usually the only other books, that are published about Tolkien's world are guide books or reflection books.




"Keen, heart-piercing was her song as the song of the lark that rises from the gates of night and pours its voice among the dying stars, seeing the sun behind the walls of the world; and the song of Lúthien released the bonds of winter, and the frozen waters spoke, and flowers sprang from the cold earth where her feet had passed."


noWizardme
Half-elven


Apr 28 2017, 1:56pm

Post #6 of 16 (4176 views)
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Some things from a 2013 discussion of it.... [In reply to] Can't Post

I remember that we had a discussion about this a while back (dear me, I am getting old...) A summary of the book was given as:


Quote
It's basically the story from the viewpoint of the "other" side. Sauron is an innovator who is trying to bring technological enlightenment to Middle-earth and Gandalf and the Elves try to stop him because they want to keep the world in the dark and have all the power to themselves. The book is written to be critical of the supposed Black and White nature of LOTR and its seeming rejection of technology.

http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=611592#611592


The conclusions seemed to be:
Those who had read it struggled with it - perhaps because of poor translation, though perhaps not.
I haven't read the work - I did read an interview with the author, but found that rather incomprehensible (and struggled not to find the author dis-likeable. I'm afraid all this led me not to bother trying the work).
We were not sure whether Mr Estov's work was a parody, or intended seriously. If a parody, there's perhaps a fundamental limitation in the fun to be had by turning everything upside-down: squire made this point, (while referring to a film that uses the same parodic device):


Quote
The premise of the spoof is simple: everything promulgated by authority - in this case, the authority of Tolkien and his filmmakers - is a lie designed to perpetuate oppression and exploitation of the proletariat, which only Marxist analysis can expose as such. It's funny, of course, although I think this one goes on too long. Since the essence of the humor is just to turn everything upside down, after a while your eyes adjust, so to speak, and then the thing becomes as predictable as a pamphlet by the Spartacus League.

squire, http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=612179#612179


The discussion got onto fiction that is mostly a vehicle for the author's ideas and theories, and does not have as much plot or characterisation as some of us like. Of course that's all down to what one person doesn't like, and another might like....

What we didn't get was any contributions from people who had read the work and enjoyed it. It would be nice to hear that point of view, if anyone wants to champion it...

~~~~~~
Where's that old read-through discussion?
A wonderful list of links to previous chapters in the 2014-2016 LOTR read-through (and to previous read-throughs) is curated by our very own 'squire' here http://users.bestweb.net/...-SixthDiscussion.htm


squire
Half-elven


Apr 28 2017, 6:03pm

Post #7 of 16 (4153 views)
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Oldie but goodie [In reply to] Can't Post

To be clear, I was referring to a spoof that was not a film, but a parody transcript of the kind of commentaries we find on the LotR DVDs. The two writers have channeled Howard Zinn and Noam Chomsky, two of the most stereotypical critics of America from a left perspective, and let them go to work on the Jackson LotR films (and so implicitly, Tolkien's original material as well).

In the same discussion I offered the idea that The Last Ringbearer seemed like it, or rather its author, might be confused between a natural Russian suspicion of state-authorized propaganda, and a natural Marxist suspicion of unscientific fantasy.

Finally, as has already been noted, the reason no other writers have published their versions of Middle-earth is that the Tolkien Estate is rightly jealous of its copyright; The Last Ringbearer is strictly speaking piracy.



squire online:
RR Discussions: The Valaquenta, A Shortcut to Mushrooms, and Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit
Lights! Action! Discuss on the Movie board!: 'A Journey in the Dark'. and 'Designing The Two Towers'.
Archive: All the TORn Reading Room Book Discussions (including the 1st BotR Discussion!) and Footerama: "Tolkien would have LOVED it!"
Dr. Squire introduces the J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia: A Reader's Diary


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noWizardme
Half-elven


Apr 28 2017, 6:07pm

Post #8 of 16 (4148 views)
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Yes, I am :) [In reply to] Can't Post

(An oldie but goodie) Smile
Thanks for the clarification- I misremembered having seen a film rather than just a script.

~~~~~~
Where's that old read-through discussion?
A wonderful list of links to previous chapters in the 2014-2016 LOTR read-through (and to previous read-throughs) is curated by our very own 'squire' here http://users.bestweb.net/...-SixthDiscussion.htm


Darkstone
Immortal


Apr 28 2017, 8:33pm

Post #9 of 16 (4144 views)
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Yes [In reply to] Can't Post

The book is by Kirill Eskov and is kind of a spy thriller about two "orcs". ("Orc" being a degrading term the West uses for foreigners.)

With the fall of Soviet Union censorship of horror, adult-oriented fantasy, and magic realism literature came to an end. Soon the popularity of hard science fiction was surpassed by fantasy, mostly inspired by Tolkien and Robert E. Howard. A subgroup, inspired by George R.R. Martin, goes in for a bit more medievalistic realism and tends to challenge Tolkien’s moral philosophy of Good and Evil. A smaller group of that subgroup does so by writing, as Tolkien would say, “impertinent contributions” to Middle-earth. Four more of the better known examples are:

The Ring of Darkness Trilogy by Nick Perumov, about a hobbit and two dwarves versus a descendant of Boromir who melts the Nazgul rings into a Dark Ring. It has a definitely impertinent Beneath the Planet of the Apes (1970) ending.

The Black Book of Arda aka The Black Silmarillion, by Nadezhda Vasilieva (aka Niennah) and Natalya Nekrasova (aka Illet) portrays Melkor as a Messiah to Middle-earth that some fringe fans take a bit too literally. Alarmingly so. Very.

The Great Game by Natalya Nekrasova (aka Illet) is a rather repetitive collection of the origins of all the Nazgul. Kinda written like a RPG source book.

Beyond the Dawn by Olga Bril’ova (aka Beren Belgarion) is a gritty retelling of the story of Beren and Luthien along with poetry from various sources (such as the German power metal band Blind Guardian) Ms. Bril’ova translated herself.


Of course posting or downloading any of these works would be a copyright violation.

******************************************
"People who alter or destroy works of art and our cultural heritage for profit or as an exercise of power are barbarians, and if the laws of the United States continue to condone this behavior, history will surely classify us as a barbaric society."
-George Lucas, 1988



(This post was edited by Darkstone on Apr 28 2017, 8:36pm)


noWizardme
Half-elven


Apr 29 2017, 9:17am

Post #10 of 16 (4099 views)
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"impertinent contributions" - what do Tolkien fanfic writers and readers think of them? [In reply to] Can't Post

General question: I'm curious whether there's a sense that one should respect the original work, and stick with its axioms? (For example that The Red Book gives a true account, rather than being what Mr Eskov seems to make it- official propaganda).

Is there a feeling that this kind of thing is bad taste, or is almost limitless allowance made if the derivative work is Good Art?

Come to think of it, is Bored Of The Rings a rare example of commercial impertinent contribution?

~~~~~~
Where's that old read-through discussion?
A wonderful list of links to previous chapters in the 2014-2016 LOTR read-through (and to previous read-throughs) is curated by our very own 'squire' here http://users.bestweb.net/...-SixthDiscussion.htm


Darkstone
Immortal


May 1 2017, 8:13pm

Post #11 of 16 (3993 views)
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"Art moves them and they don't know what they've been moved by and they get quite drunk on it" [In reply to] Can't Post

Does [Tolkien] like Americans? "I don't like anyone very much in that sense. I'm against generalizations." One persists. Does he like Americans? "Art moves them and they don't know what they've been moved by and they get quite drunk on it," Tolkien says. "Many young Americans are involved in the stories in a way that I am not."
-Interview with JRR Tolkien by Philip Norman of The Sunday Times, London, as published in the NYTimes, January 15, 1967


General question: I'm curious whether there's a sense that one should respect the original work, and stick with its axioms?

In the world of fanfic portraying someone “OOC” (“Out Of Character”) seems to be the fairly universal no-no. A lot of fanfic is published in installments on-line and commenters are not hesitant to heatedly point out “Spock wouldn’t do that!” or “Snape wouldn’t do that!” or “Edward wouldn’t do that!” or “Twilight Sparkle wouldn’t do that!” Basically dedicated fanfic fans share the same fierce sensitivities as do serious Tolkien fans inasmuch as “Aragorn wouldn’t do that!”, “Treebeard wouldn’t do that!”, “Gandalf wouldn’t do that!”, “Faramir wouldn’t do that!”, and “Frodo wouldn’t do that!” were among their own indignant responses to a certain recent fanfic.


(For example that The Red Book gives a true account, rather than being what Mr Eskov seems to make it- official propaganda).

A problem is the “found manuscript” conceit. I’m sure as an Anglo-Saxon scholar Tolkien himself didn’t take the “found manuscript” of Beowulf as reliable in its depiction of Geats as totally brave and noble and their enemies the Swedes as totally sneaky and treacherous. And after all, there could well be an “unfound manuscript” of a Swedish hero that asserts the exact opposite!


Is there a feeling that this kind of thing is bad taste, or is almost limitless allowance made if the derivative work is Good Art?

Almost all fanfic writers seem inspired by passion. Unfortunately Art inspired solely by passion can produce some very bad stuff. For example in cinema there are 2000’s “Battlefield Earth” (inspired by John Travolta’s passion for Scientology), 2004’s “Alexander” (inspired by Oliver Stone’s passion for ancient history), and 1943’s “The Outlaw” (inspired by Howard Hughes’ passion for Jane Russell’s breasts). Critics almost universally agree all these films are very very bad.


Come to think of it, is Bored Of The Rings a rare example of commercial impertinent contribution?

Well, parodies are impertinent by nature.

Still, “parody” is fair use and that may well be a legal justification for these “turn Middle-earth on its head” works.

These Russian works seem to be parallel novels. A “parallel novel” is a retelling of a tale, usually well-known, from another point of view. Some famous examples of parallel novels are John Gardner’s Grendel which is Beowulf told from the monster’s point of view, Jean Rhys’ Wide Sargasso Sea which is Charlotte Brontë's Jane Eyre told from the first Mrs. Rochester’s point of view, and Gregory Maguire’s Wicked which is L. Frank Baum’s The Wizard of Oz told from the Wicked Witch of the West’s point of view. (One might also throw in C.S. Lewis’ Till We Have Faces.)

Of course all these are based on works in public domain and thus, though perhaps impertinent, are totally legal.

Obviously Lord of the Rings is not yet in public domain.

And neither is Margaret Mitchell’s Gone With the Wind.

Alice Randall’s The Wind Done Gone is a parallel novel told from the point of view of Scarlett O’Hara’s slave half-sister.

Margaret Mitchell’s estate sued to prevent Randall’s book from being published.

The U.S. Court of Appeals for the Eleventh Circuit vacated an injunction against publishing the book.

From Suntrust v. Houghton Mifflin (2001):

First, the district court erred by finding that the critical or parodic element of The Wind Done Gone is anything but clear-cut. Far from amounting to "unabated piracy," 136 F.Supp.2d 1357, 1369 (N.D.Ga.2001), The Wind Done Gone is unequivocally parody, as both Judge Birch and the Supreme Court in Campbell v. Acuff-Rose Music, Inc., 510 U.S. 569, 114 S.Ct. 1164, 127 L.Ed.2d 500 (1994), define that term. Indeed, the book is critical by constitution, its main aim being to shatter Gone With the Winds window on life in the antebellum and Civil War South.

So one might argue that this type of Russian fanfic is fair use protected parody as it is critical by constitution, its main aim being to shatter Lord of the Rings’ window on life in Middle-earth.

Of course whether that argument would hold up in court is another matter.

(Ultimately the case was settled out of court.)

The Wind Done Gone is still being published, albeit with a seal on the cover identifying it as "The Unauthorized Parody." Despite the seal it’s nowhere as humorous as Bored of the Rings.

As for myself, I have to admit my main question in all this is what is it particular to the Russian psychology that might make it feel compelled to shatter Lord of the Rings’ window on life in Middle-earth?

******************************************
"People who alter or destroy works of art and our cultural heritage for profit or as an exercise of power are barbarians, and if the laws of the United States continue to condone this behavior, history will surely classify us as a barbaric society."
-George Lucas, 1988



CuriousG
Half-elven


May 1 2017, 8:15pm

Post #12 of 16 (3991 views)
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I am both a Tolkien fan and a "Bored of the Rings" fan [In reply to] Can't Post

So if people want to write parodies, even bad ones, I'm not opposed. If they're bad, I won't read them. If they're good, like BOTR, then I wind up enjoying the original material even more.

And people can write all the fanfic they want. That doesn't displace Tolkien as "The Authority" in my mind.


Darkstone
Immortal


May 1 2017, 8:21pm

Post #13 of 16 (3988 views)
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Oh, no! [In reply to] Can't Post

The voice of reason!!

******************************************
"People who alter or destroy works of art and our cultural heritage for profit or as an exercise of power are barbarians, and if the laws of the United States continue to condone this behavior, history will surely classify us as a barbaric society."
-George Lucas, 1988



squire
Half-elven


May 1 2017, 8:42pm

Post #14 of 16 (3986 views)
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More respectful than impertinent, I think [In reply to] Can't Post

The authors of BotR were very concerned that their readers recognize both that the book was a parody, not a pirated counterfeit; and that Beard and Kenney,were fundamentally devoted to kindly Prof. Tolkien's remarkable text. From the Foreword:
Bored of the Rings has been issued in this form as a parody. This is very important. It is an attempt to satirize the other books, not simply to be mistaken for them. Thus, we must strongly remind you that this is not the real thing! So if you're about to purchase this copy thinking it's about the Lord of the Rings, then you'd better put it right back onto that big pile of remainders where you found it. Oh, but you've already read this far, so that must mean that--that you've already bought . . . oh dear . . . oh my . . . (Tote up another one on the register, Jocko. "Ching!")
Lastly, we hope that those of you who have read Prof. Tolkien's remarkable trilogy already will not be offended by our little spoof of it. All fooling aside, we consider ourselves honored to be able to make fun of such an impressive, truly masterful work of genius and imagination. After all, that is the most important service a book can render, the rendering of enjoyment, in this case, enjoyment through laughter. And don't trouble yourself too much if you don't laugh at what you are about to read, for if you perk up your pink little ears, you may hear the silvery tinkling of merriment in the air, far, far away. . . .
It's us, buster. Ching!
- Harvard Lampoon. (1969). Bored of the Rings.




squire online:
RR Discussions: The Valaquenta, A Shortcut to Mushrooms, and Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit
Lights! Action! Discuss on the Movie board!: 'A Journey in the Dark'. and 'Designing The Two Towers'.
Archive: All the TORn Reading Room Book Discussions (including the 1st BotR Discussion!) and Footerama: "Tolkien would have LOVED it!"
Dr. Squire introduces the J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia: A Reader's Diary


= Forum has no new posts. Forum needs no new posts.


CuriousG
Half-elven


May 2 2017, 10:08am

Post #15 of 16 (3938 views)
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I promise to not make a habit of it. // [In reply to] Can't Post

 


noWizardme
Half-elven


May 2 2017, 8:46pm

Post #16 of 16 (3927 views)
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*shattering* the window [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks for a thought-provoking post, including:

In Reply To

Almost all fanfic writers seem inspired by passion. Unfortunately Art inspired solely by passion can produce some very bad stuff.
...

These Russian works seem to be parallel novels. A “parallel novel” is a retelling of a tale, usually well-known, from another point of view.
...

So one might argue that this type of Russian fanfic is fair use protected parody as it is critical by constitution, its main aim being to shatter Lord of the Rings’ window on life in Middle-earth.


Shattering is perhaps a revealingly violent word, suggesting a frustration with the original work (or its author, or its fans). Maybe there's a distinction between:
=> folks who have a passion for the work, and whose frustration is only that it is incomplete in some way (which they will try to rectify), and;
=> folks who are frustrated by the work, because it does not align with their passion (for Marxism, conservatism, feminism, Scientology, ancient history, Jane Russell etc; or a passion for Thorin, who obviously should survive to marry ME, Mary-Sue instead of getting killed Smile.

I've noticed that people who are passionate about something can have trouble remembering that their passion isn't axiomatic for everyone. Perhaps that leads to incomprehensible fanfic, where the reader misses the point the author is trying to make?

~~~~~~
Where's that old read-through discussion?
A wonderful list of links to previous chapters in the 2014-2016 LOTR read-through (and to previous read-throughs) is curated by our very own 'squire' here http://users.bestweb.net/...-SixthDiscussion.htm

 
 

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