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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Reading Room:
Fellowship of The Ring - unofficial read through Part II
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Eruonen
Valinor


May 26 2017, 8:37pm

Post #126 of 141 (1673 views)
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Not that I would want her in the role but superficially [In reply to] Can't Post

Gwynneth Paltrow could have the look....but that is all.

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/...782316f17752c807.jpg


Eruonen
Valinor


May 26 2017, 8:52pm

Post #127 of 141 (1671 views)
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Charlize Theron and Uma Thurman [In reply to] Can't Post

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/...0d3843fec484297d.jpg

Uma Thurman

http://celebmafia.com/...city_1_thumbnail.jpg


(This post was edited by Eruonen on May 26 2017, 8:53pm)


Eruonen
Valinor


May 29 2017, 1:57am

Post #128 of 141 (1615 views)
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Farewell to Lorien.....or is it Lothlorien? And why? [In reply to] Can't Post

I have noticed, without really reflecting on it before, why both terms are used for the same thing but then again there must be specific differences associated with word choice.

Regarding the Vala Irmo - Irmo (pronounced [ˈirmo]) is a Quenya name meaning "Desirer" or "Master of Desire".[4] His common name Lórien (Quenya; [ˈloːri.en]) means "Land of Dreams".

The M.E. map shows "Lorien" as the location.

Lothlórien - kingdom of Silvan Elves on the eastern side of the Hithaeglir.

Lothlórien, said to mean "Lórien of the Blossom", is a compound of Sindarin loth + Quenya Lórien "?Dream Land"). Treebeard translates the name as "Dreamflower".[17]


loth is a Sindarin word meaning "inflorescence, a head of small flowers",[1], "flower, a single bloom",[2] or "a flower (of defined shape)".[3]

http://tolkiengateway.net/...Lothlórien#Etymology
http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Irmo

So, what rules did Tolkien follow in the usage of both terms?

We have two chapters -- "Lothlorien" and "A Farewell to Lorien"

Why not "A Farewell to Lothlorien"? or vice versa?

Another site has discussed and the usage was rather fluid -
https://scifi.stackexchange.com/...othlórien-and-lórien

I wonder what led Tolkien to use both versions and for what reason...from the above, both refer to essentially the same thing but he felt it important to use both terms in the chapter headings.


(This post was edited by Eruonen on May 29 2017, 1:57am)


Eruonen
Valinor


May 29 2017, 2:07am

Post #129 of 141 (1612 views)
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Two curious statements in the chapter Farewell to Lorien [In reply to] Can't Post

"Already she seemed to him, as by men of later days Elves STILL AT TIMES ARE SEEN (my emphasis): present and yet remote, a living vision of that time which has already been left behind by the flowing streams of Time"

The author again, is using the language discussed in an earlier thread that shows a linkage from the imagined world to the current. JRR Tolkien is using a literary conceit that brings his world to the reader in a very touching way - I am not sure if he was aware of the impact of such little sentences, but they are part of the magic in his writing that grabs the reader.

He also has Celeborn responding to Boromir about supposed "old wives tales" regarding Fangorn - "But do not despise the lore that has come down from distant years; for oft it may chance that old wives' keep in memory word of things that once were needed for the wise to know."
This sentence encapsulates the entire thrust of JRR Tolkien's work as a philologist and raison d'être for his literary career.


(This post was edited by Eruonen on May 29 2017, 2:09am)


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


May 29 2017, 3:18am

Post #130 of 141 (1602 views)
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The Three Lóriens [In reply to] Can't Post

As you note, Lórien was the more common name of the Vala Irmo, Master of Visions and Dreams, and brother of Mandos and Niennna.

Lórien was also the dwelling in Valinor of Irmo and his spouse Estë. The gardens of Lórien were reputed to be the most beautiful in Arda.

Finally, Lórien (also Lothlórien) was also the name given to the Elven Realm west of the Anduin modeled after Doriath in Beleriand, and ruled by Galadriel and Celeborn during the later part of the Third Age. Presumably, this Lórien was named after the gardens of Irmo. 'Lothlórien' served to distinguish it from the Lórien of Aman.

"He who lies artistically, treads closer to the truth than ever he knows." -- Favorite proverb of the wizard Ningauble of the Seven Eyes

(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on May 29 2017, 3:22am)


Eruonen
Valinor


May 29 2017, 4:11am

Post #131 of 141 (1596 views)
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I wonder then why JRR T used "Farewell to Lorien" rather than Lothlorien? [In reply to] Can't Post

Not sure if it is addressed in HOME somewhere.


squire
Half-elven


May 29 2017, 1:11pm

Post #132 of 141 (1569 views)
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It scans better [In reply to] Can't Post

"Farewell to Lorien" is a dactylic phrase: long-short-short / long-short-short. Good meter, easy to say.

"Farewell to Lothlorien" breaks that up in an unhappy way: long-short-short / long / long-short-short.

In an oral culture, where the spoken word takes precedence over the written word, it's quite common to have several names or phrases for the same thing, so references can be inserted easily into an ongoing rhythmic phrase. I've always thought that's why Tolkien, who composed The Lord of the Rings with full consideration for how it read out loud, used the two names "Lorien" and "Lothlorien" for the Enchanted Wood (iambic phrase: short-long / short-long)..



squire online:
RR Discussions: The Valaquenta, A Shortcut to Mushrooms, and Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit
Lights! Action! Discuss on the Movie board!: 'A Journey in the Dark'. and 'Designing The Two Towers'.
Archive: All the TORn Reading Room Book Discussions (including the 1st BotR Discussion!) and Footerama: "Tolkien would have LOVED it!"
Dr. Squire introduces the J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia: A Reader's Diary


= Forum has no new posts. Forum needs no new posts.


Eruonen
Valinor


May 29 2017, 2:44pm

Post #133 of 141 (1555 views)
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As good an explanation as any. [In reply to] Can't Post

I was'nt sure if there was some usage rule that he had indicated elsewhere that I was unaware of in previous readings.

I suppose some similar choices could include:
Farewell New York City / Farewell New York
Farewell Los Angeles / Farewell La La Land
Farewell Rio De Janeiro / Farewell Rio


squire
Half-elven


May 29 2017, 3:07pm

Post #134 of 141 (1549 views)
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Good examples [In reply to] Can't Post

For instance:
"Good-bye New York"
and
"Farewell to New York City"
both scan well. But
"Good-bye to New York"
and
"Farewell New York City"
do not. It doesn't mean you can't write the second phrases, of course. It means the first ones are easier to say - and in that sense, easier to read as well.



squire online:
RR Discussions: The Valaquenta, A Shortcut to Mushrooms, and Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit
Lights! Action! Discuss on the Movie board!: 'A Journey in the Dark'. and 'Designing The Two Towers'.
Archive: All the TORn Reading Room Book Discussions (including the 1st BotR Discussion!) and Footerama: "Tolkien would have LOVED it!"
Dr. Squire introduces the J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia: A Reader's Diary


= Forum has no new posts. Forum needs no new posts.


Eruonen
Valinor


May 29 2017, 8:46pm

Post #135 of 141 (1525 views)
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The Great River [In reply to] Can't Post

With the passing of the company down the river, Lothlorien is destined to fade, and those who dwell there will have very little reason to avoid taking the Straight Road and leaving Middle Earth. To stay is to hasten the dwindling (I think of it as a corrosive effect) of the elves. Destined to become a "rustic folk of dell and cave, slowly to forget and to be forgotten."

So the small, somewhat unstable boats are launched and Lorien passes from view. The hard road lies ahead. I wonder where Gollum was hanging out during their stay. Actually in the forest or along its edges?


(This post was edited by Eruonen on May 29 2017, 8:47pm)


CuriousG
Half-elven


May 30 2017, 12:22pm

Post #136 of 141 (1488 views)
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Early advertising for the virtues of going 100% organic. Tolkien was totally granola.// [In reply to] Can't Post

 


CuriousG
Half-elven


May 30 2017, 12:23pm

Post #137 of 141 (1487 views)
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Great list. That clap of thunder you hear is my applause. // [In reply to] Can't Post

 


Eruonen
Valinor


May 30 2017, 5:30pm

Post #138 of 141 (1463 views)
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As the company floats through bleak lands the shadow starts to envelop them - [In reply to] Can't Post

Gollum is near and waiting for a chance to make a lurch for the ring.
Aragorn, taking chances at night paddling, almost leads them to disaster if not for Sam seeing the rapids and rocks.
Orcs, tipped off somehow, await them in the dark and launch volleys of arrows - luckily missing or striking Frodo who without the mithril shirt would be dead several times now. Fortune - providence - going all the way back to Erebor?
Legolas, appears to kill or at least force a Nazgul from the sky with an arrow. Brings to mind Bard and Smaug.


noWizardme
Valinor


May 30 2017, 10:05pm

Post #139 of 141 (1449 views)
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"why do the fools fly?" [In reply to] Can't Post

I thought it might be helpful to check how Tolkien uses 'flying' elsewhere in the text Searching the LOTR text for 'flying' (easy if you have an eBook) finds a number of uses where it would be ridiculous to insist that airborne travel must be meant. Here are some examples:

"‘It can’t be helped, Sam,’ said Frodo sadly. He had suddenly realized that flying from the Shire would mean more painful partings than merely saying farewell to the familiar comforts of Bag End."

You speak of danger, but you do not understand. This is no treasure-hunt, no there-and-back journey. I am flying from deadly peril into deadly peril.’"

"How Shelob came there, flying from ruin, no tale tells, for out of the Dark Years few tales have come."

"‘The first circle of the City is burning, lord,’ they said. ‘What are your commands? You are still the Lord and Steward. Not all will follow Mithrandir. Men are flying from the walls and leaving them unmanned.’ ‘Why? Why do the fools fly?’ said Denethor."

So I think it's pretty clear that Tolkien did use fly = flee reasonably often.

~~~~~~
Where's that old read-through discussion?
A wonderful list of links to previous chapters in the 2014-2016 LOTR read-through (and to previous read-throughs) is curated by our very own 'squire' here http://users.bestweb.net/...-SixthDiscussion.htm


Eruonen
Valinor


May 30 2017, 10:14pm

Post #140 of 141 (1445 views)
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Yes, in those instances he did. [In reply to] Can't Post

For me - this line satisfies my understanding in the specific case of the Balrog:

"Swiftly they arose, and they passed with winged speed over Hithlum, and they came to Lammoth as a tempest of fire."
― Morgoth's Ring, "The Later Quenta Silmarillion: Of the Rape of the Silmarils"


noWizardme
Valinor


May 31 2017, 11:47am

Post #141 of 141 (1427 views)
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And of course that's fine! [In reply to] Can't Post

Very often we end up with "I prefer this reading myself, though I do appreciate that others can be justified".

We shouldn't seek "One Reading To Rule Them All" Smile

As you probably know, this balrog wings debate is one of the recurring FAQ on Tolkien sites- and was evidently already so in 1999, since it led to this joke version debate about whether balrogs wear fluffy bedroom slippers, or , on the contrary, just have appalling foot-odour http://flyingmoose.org/...heories/slippers.htm

BTW - your thread is nearly being pushed off the first page by newer threads, & may find that contributions to this thread drop as it becomes buried. So you might soon want to consider moving onto a new thread for a further instalment.

~~~~~~
Where's that old read-through discussion?
A wonderful list of links to previous chapters in the 2014-2016 LOTR read-through (and to previous read-throughs) is curated by our very own 'squire' here http://users.bestweb.net/...-SixthDiscussion.htm

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