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Eruonen
Half-elven
May 29 2017, 1:57am
Post #128 of 141
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Farewell to Lorien.....or is it Lothlorien? And why?
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I have noticed, without really reflecting on it before, why both terms are used for the same thing but then again there must be specific differences associated with word choice.
Regarding the Vala Irmo - Irmo (pronounced [ˈirmo]) is a Quenya name meaning "Desirer" or "Master of Desire".[4] His common name Lórien (Quenya; [ˈloːri.en]) means "Land of Dreams".
The M.E. map shows "Lorien" as the location.
Lothlórien - kingdom of Silvan Elves on the eastern side of the Hithaeglir.
Lothlórien, said to mean "Lórien of the Blossom", is a compound of Sindarin loth + Quenya Lórien "?Dream Land"). Treebeard translates the name as "Dreamflower".[17]
loth is a Sindarin word meaning "inflorescence, a head of small flowers",[1], "flower, a single bloom",[2] or "a flower (of defined shape)".[3]
http://tolkiengateway.net/...Lothlórien#Etymology
http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Irmo
So, what rules did Tolkien follow in the usage of both terms?
We have two chapters -- "Lothlorien" and "A Farewell to Lorien"
Why not "A Farewell to Lothlorien"? or vice versa?
Another site has discussed and the usage was rather fluid -
https://scifi.stackexchange.com/...othlórien-and-lórien
I wonder what led Tolkien to use both versions and for what reason...from the above, both refer to essentially the same thing but he felt it important to use both terms in the chapter headings.
(This post was edited by Eruonen on May 29 2017, 1:57am)
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Eruonen
Half-elven
May 29 2017, 2:07am
Post #129 of 141
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Two curious statements in the chapter Farewell to Lorien
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"Already she seemed to him, as by men of later days Elves STILL AT TIMES ARE SEEN (my emphasis): present and yet remote, a living vision of that time which has already been left behind by the flowing streams of Time"
The author again, is using the language discussed in an earlier thread that shows a linkage from the imagined world to the current. JRR Tolkien is using a literary conceit that brings his world to the reader in a very touching way - I am not sure if he was aware of the impact of such little sentences, but they are part of the magic in his writing that grabs the reader.
He also has Celeborn responding to Boromir about supposed "old wives tales" regarding Fangorn - "But do not despise the lore that has come down from distant years; for oft it may chance that old wives' keep in memory word of things that once were needed for the wise to know."
This sentence encapsulates the entire thrust of JRR Tolkien's work as a philologist and raison d'être for his literary career.
(This post was edited by Eruonen on May 29 2017, 2:09am)
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
May 29 2017, 3:18am
Post #130 of 141
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As you note, Lórien was the more common name of the Vala Irmo, Master of Visions and Dreams, and brother of Mandos and Niennna.
Lórien was also the dwelling in Valinor of Irmo and his spouse Estë. The gardens of Lórien were reputed to be the most beautiful in Arda.
Finally, Lórien (also Lothlórien) was also the name given to the Elven Realm west of the Anduin modeled after Doriath in Beleriand, and ruled by Galadriel and Celeborn during the later part of the Third Age. Presumably, this Lórien was named after the gardens of Irmo. 'Lothlórien' served to distinguish it from the Lórien of Aman.
"He who lies artistically, treads closer to the truth than ever he knows." -- Favorite proverb of the wizard Ningauble of the Seven Eyes
(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on May 29 2017, 3:22am)
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Eruonen
Half-elven
May 29 2017, 4:11am
Post #131 of 141
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I wonder then why JRR T used "Farewell to Lorien" rather than Lothlorien?
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Not sure if it is addressed in HOME somewhere.
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Eruonen
Half-elven
May 29 2017, 2:44pm
Post #133 of 141
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As good an explanation as any.
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I was'nt sure if there was some usage rule that he had indicated elsewhere that I was unaware of in previous readings.
I suppose some similar choices could include:
Farewell New York City / Farewell New York
Farewell Los Angeles / Farewell La La Land
Farewell Rio De Janeiro / Farewell Rio
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Eruonen
Half-elven
May 29 2017, 8:46pm
Post #135 of 141
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With the passing of the company down the river, Lothlorien is destined to fade, and those who dwell there will have very little reason to avoid taking the Straight Road and leaving Middle Earth. To stay is to hasten the dwindling (I think of it as a corrosive effect) of the elves. Destined to become a "rustic folk of dell and cave, slowly to forget and to be forgotten."
So the small, somewhat unstable boats are launched and Lorien passes from view. The hard road lies ahead. I wonder where Gollum was hanging out during their stay. Actually in the forest or along its edges?
(This post was edited by Eruonen on May 29 2017, 8:47pm)
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CuriousG
Half-elven
May 30 2017, 12:22pm
Post #136 of 141
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Early advertising for the virtues of going 100% organic. Tolkien was totally granola.//
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CuriousG
Half-elven
May 30 2017, 12:23pm
Post #137 of 141
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Great list. That clap of thunder you hear is my applause. //
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Eruonen
Half-elven
May 30 2017, 5:30pm
Post #138 of 141
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As the company floats through bleak lands the shadow starts to envelop them -
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Gollum is near and waiting for a chance to make a lurch for the ring.
Aragorn, taking chances at night paddling, almost leads them to disaster if not for Sam seeing the rapids and rocks.
Orcs, tipped off somehow, await them in the dark and launch volleys of arrows - luckily missing or striking Frodo who without the mithril shirt would be dead several times now. Fortune - providence - going all the way back to Erebor?
Legolas, appears to kill or at least force a Nazgul from the sky with an arrow. Brings to mind Bard and Smaug.
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noWizardme
Half-elven
May 30 2017, 10:05pm
Post #139 of 141
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I thought it might be helpful to check how Tolkien uses 'flying' elsewhere in the text Searching the LOTR text for 'flying' (easy if you have an eBook) finds a number of uses where it would be ridiculous to insist that airborne travel must be meant. Here are some examples:
"‘It can’t be helped, Sam,’ said Frodo sadly. He had suddenly realized that flying from the Shire would mean more painful partings than merely saying farewell to the familiar comforts of Bag End."
You speak of danger, but you do not understand. This is no treasure-hunt, no there-and-back journey. I am flying from deadly peril into deadly peril.’"
"How Shelob came there, flying from ruin, no tale tells, for out of the Dark Years few tales have come."
"‘The first circle of the City is burning, lord,’ they said. ‘What are your commands? You are still the Lord and Steward. Not all will follow Mithrandir. Men are flying from the walls and leaving them unmanned.’ ‘Why? Why do the fools fly?’ said Denethor."
So I think it's pretty clear that Tolkien did use fly = flee reasonably often.
~~~~~~
Where's that old read-through discussion?
A wonderful list of links to previous chapters in the 2014-2016 LOTR read-through (and to previous read-throughs) is curated by our very own 'squire' here http://users.bestweb.net/...-SixthDiscussion.htm
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Eruonen
Half-elven
May 30 2017, 10:14pm
Post #140 of 141
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Yes, in those instances he did.
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For me - this line satisfies my understanding in the specific case of the Balrog:
"Swiftly they arose, and they passed with winged speed over Hithlum, and they came to Lammoth as a tempest of fire."
― Morgoth's Ring, "The Later Quenta Silmarillion: Of the Rape of the Silmarils"
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noWizardme
Half-elven
May 31 2017, 11:47am
Post #141 of 141
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Very often we end up with "I prefer this reading myself, though I do appreciate that others can be justified".
We shouldn't seek "One Reading To Rule Them All" 
As you probably know, this balrog wings debate is one of the recurring FAQ on Tolkien sites- and was evidently already so in 1999, since it led to this joke version debate about whether balrogs wear fluffy bedroom slippers, or , on the contrary, just have appalling foot-odour http://flyingmoose.org/...heories/slippers.htm
BTW - your thread is nearly being pushed off the first page by newer threads, & may find that contributions to this thread drop as it becomes buried. So you might soon want to consider moving onto a new thread for a further instalment.
~~~~~~
Where's that old read-through discussion?
A wonderful list of links to previous chapters in the 2014-2016 LOTR read-through (and to previous read-throughs) is curated by our very own 'squire' here http://users.bestweb.net/...-SixthDiscussion.htm
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