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Fellowship of The Ring - unofficial, unsanctioned, unsolicited read through
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FarFromHome
Valinor


Apr 18 2017, 8:52am

Post #126 of 153 (3201 views)
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Very interesting read. Thanks! // [In reply to] Can't Post

 

They went in, and Sam shut the door.
But even as he did so, he heard suddenly,
deep and unstilled,
the sigh and murmur of the Sea upon the shores of Middle-earth.
From the unpublished Epilogue to the Lord of the Rings



Eruonen
Half-elven


Apr 18 2017, 2:09pm

Post #127 of 153 (3180 views)
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A Flight To The Ford [In reply to] Can't Post

We have already crossed into this chapter.

The good professor was fond of leaving some elements of his story vague or incompletely developed. As has been shown, the Nazgul are an example. I wonder of Glorfindel, as seen by Frodo in his shining appearance, was able to contest with the Nazgul on their plane of existence. He could see them as they are and they could see him.

I do find it odd that the Nazgul waited so long to continue their effort at reclaiming the ring. Glorfindel indicates that he pursued three of the servants of Sauron (Nazgul) and then came upon two others. Now, he does speak of them possibly holding the ford against them. I wonder at the logic of placing Frodo on his horse and sending him and the ring out into danger. He states "there are few even in Rivendell that can ride openly against the Nine..." Again, the Nazgul question is presented...what are there powers over some elves? Would it have better for Glorfindel to have ridden, like Arwen, with Frodo on the saddle?


noWizardme
Half-elven


Apr 18 2017, 4:49pm

Post #128 of 153 (3172 views)
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who attacked the Inn? - Tolkien himself changed his mind [In reply to] Can't Post

We tried to work out who attacked the Inn (any why they gave up so easily!) during the last read-through. Each of the options (it was Black Riders; it was ruffians; it was both) have some mysteries and problems attached to them.

Tolkien might have meant it to be ambiguous - creepier, perhaps if the hobbits don't from whom they had their narrow escape - or some of the confusion may have arisen by Tolkien himself changing his mind, and then forgetting he'd done so. I'll quote posts from Sador, from this last discussion - you can click the links and more around the discussion if you want more!


Quote

according to HoME, at first Tolkien thought it was the Riders who 'did it'; then he changed his mind, and preferred it to be a human job. We don't know why - and as it is only written on a note he jotted down for himself, it might have been just an ephmeral idea - but he did omit Trotter reconsideration of his assertion the inn will not be attacked, so it seems he did take this change seriously. But in 1955, when working on the appendices and The Hunt for the Ring, he returned to his original idea. ...

To sum up, Tolkien switched back and forth between the ideas [that it was Black Riders vs. that it was Ferney &/or other ruffians]. The text gives no clear proof either way, although both seem to have serious problems with them. There are clear indications pointing both ways - the attack on Crickhollow, and Strider's words - but either could easily be a red herring.


Was this left unclear on purpose? I would like to think this is another case of what Curious and FarFromHome used to call "deliberate ambiguity" - but this is only a hunch of mine.

Sador, http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=839553#839553

Then sador adds in a later post:
But regarding the presentation of the whodunnit question - after all I have written above, it seems NEB and dernwyn were right in principle - in the fourth phase of writing, Tolkien did write a note on which the Riders option was written down, but struck out, and instead of it Ferny and the Southerner were named as the culprits. He did revise the tenth and eleventh chapter with that in his mind - he deleted one sentence which clearly indicated otherwise - but this did not change materially the chapter as written; like he decided to omit Harry Goatleaf's encounter with the Riders which he did write in the drafts, he decided to keep this matter dark, creating the atmosphere of suspense and ambiguity which makes the Riders such a successful character.
In a way, it's like changing 'Trotter' to 'Strider', or 'Barnabas Butterbur' to 'Barliman' - one could easily argue that the fact that during the story's developement Tolkien thought the culprits were others makes no difference - once he had come to consider the question, he unequivocally decided on Ferny and co.


The problem is that apparently JRRT forgot this decision, and kept in memory his original concept - in two (perhaps three) future chapters he had dropped hints pointing to the Riders, as well as retaining (adding? I don't have the time to check) the contradicting statement in The Shadow of the Past, and in The Tale of Years he did the same. Presumably, had he written down explicitly in the book that it was Ferny he would have remembered it - but being written on a single note, he did not.
So the chapters in which the raid on the inn are described point at the Ferny and his friends as the housebreakers (although, as Curious stated, they must have had some magical help to do so without raising the alarm), while other chapters indicate otherwise. Ferny is a small fish, and Aragorn states later that the Enemy would never let the likes of him know what they were looking for, and wouldn't it be risky to let Ferny near the Ring? (Although again, Aragorn's guess is contradicted by the story of Grishnakh...)
This results in a wonderful ambiguity.Was it deliberate? At the stage of writing, probably not. But I would like to think that during the revising stages, JRRT did notice it and left it in deliberately.

sador http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=839929#839929


~~~~~~
Where's that old read-through discussion?
A wonderful list of links to previous chapters in the 2014-2016 LOTR read-through (and to previous read-throughs) is curated by our very own 'squire' here http://users.bestweb.net/...-SixthDiscussion.htm


Eruonen
Half-elven


Apr 18 2017, 5:12pm

Post #129 of 153 (3168 views)
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I guess we will all individually read it as our prediliction leads us to.... [In reply to] Can't Post

On this read through, I am noticing more such ambiguities and or contradictions that have persisted and JRR Tolkien was well aware of ongoing problems as stated in the Forward - "A number of errors and inconsistencies that still remained in the text have been corrected...if some have been passed over that may be be because I have failed to keep my notes in order...."


FarFromHome
Valinor


Apr 18 2017, 6:48pm

Post #130 of 153 (3158 views)
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My takeaway... [In reply to] Can't Post

... is that in the end, we only know what the characters themselves can know, and Tolkien wasn't obliged to make up his mind about the conflicting possibilities because he's only the "translator", so how should he know!

Thanks for the links to all that complicated evolution of the story - I don't think I've seen all those different approaches that Tolkien tried put together like that before.

The last lines you quote from sador sum it up perfectly:
This results in a wonderful ambiguity.Was it deliberate? At the stage of writing, probably not. But I would like to think that during the revising stages, JRRT did notice it and left it in deliberately.
That works for me. Although this current thread has made me want to avoid choosing between ruffians and Riders at all. Why not have both? Ruffians to do the physical stabbing, since that doesn't seem to be the kind of thing the very ghostlike Nazgul do in the book, but with the Nazgul there as well, making sure the ruffians do their job and then going in for the Ring once the job is done. I can imagine both ruffians and Riders getting involved in all the damage to the room when they find out they've been tricked!

But we'll never know because that's just something that "this tale does not tell."

Crazy


They went in, and Sam shut the door.
But even as he did so, he heard suddenly,
deep and unstilled,
the sigh and murmur of the Sea upon the shores of Middle-earth.
From the unpublished Epilogue to the Lord of the Rings



Eruonen
Half-elven


Apr 18 2017, 7:01pm

Post #131 of 153 (3154 views)
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And these situations are what make the read through interesting for me [In reply to] Can't Post

as over time we start to assume certain things and then confronted with the text have to say "What?" or "How" etc. Way before the movies came out I always assumed the Nazgul did the attack - so seeing how there is ample room for other characters to have been the attackers I have to consider it unresolved. In my head I will probably always see the Nazgul in that episode.


noWizardme
Half-elven


Apr 18 2017, 9:29pm

Post #132 of 153 (3143 views)
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But what is the attack on the Inn trying to achieve? [In reply to] Can't Post

The obvious answer seems to be "capture the Ring", but the attack seems pathetically half - hearted in that case, as you say, giving up at the first check.

So perhaps the aim is only to do what the attack does actually achieve: drive Frodo out of the Inn and Bree. That might be to prevent him rendezvousing with any more troublesome allies; to allow the Witch King to arrive if it's assumed that the Ringbearer will be easy to seize and the Boss wants the honour; and of course to have some fun with the quarry before bringing him in.

~~~~~~
Where's that old read-through discussion?
A wonderful list of links to previous chapters in the 2014-2016 LOTR read-through (and to previous read-throughs) is curated by our very own 'squire' here http://users.bestweb.net/...-SixthDiscussion.htm


Eruonen
Half-elven


Apr 19 2017, 2:07am

Post #133 of 153 (3129 views)
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One more tidbit re Nazgul [In reply to] Can't Post

Glorfindel says "The pursuit would follow you and leave us in peace, I think. It is you, Frodo, and that which you bear that brings us all in peril"

Ok...Glorfindel is not likely in peril, and Aragorn only marginally so as he has demonstrated an ability to face them at Weatherop. The other hobbits...possible peril. Though all could be affected by the Black Breath if exposed long enough I assume. But, the Nazgul are not "empty suits" so to speak.
The leader stands up in his stirrups and and raised his hand - visible to Frodo. He cast some kind of magic and struck Frodo and reduced his sword to pieces. So they have physical attributes. Also, for some reason Frodo can see them with their hoods thrown back...he sees their pale hands, helms on their heads, cold eyes. Their voice is a key weapon. At the ford one rider brandished a sword...a real weapon.


(This post was edited by Eruonen on Apr 19 2017, 2:17am)


noWizardme
Half-elven


Apr 19 2017, 10:14am

Post #134 of 153 (3088 views)
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Yes, I think so [In reply to] Can't Post

There are points at which readers are left to infer or deduce something - "who attacked the Inn" is one of many examples. Of course a particular reader can come to a conclusion about the theory they currently prefer. But I don't think it's realistic to expect there to be some form of official or definite answer to each point (if anyone was thinking that - I'm not claiming that you necessarily were!)

Whether Tolkien should have cleared all this up - left us a neat official explanation for everything is a bit moot, because he didn't or couldn't. I'm not sure myself whether it matters, though at other times I too find inconsistencies or mysteries frustrating.

~~~~~~
Where's that old read-through discussion?
A wonderful list of links to previous chapters in the 2014-2016 LOTR read-through (and to previous read-throughs) is curated by our very own 'squire' here http://users.bestweb.net/...-SixthDiscussion.htm


Eruonen
Half-elven


Apr 19 2017, 4:42pm

Post #135 of 153 (3058 views)
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Many Meetings [In reply to] Can't Post

After this chapter we will pause a short bit to let people catch up before jumping into The Council of Elrond.

Early on, I wonder how Gandalf was aware of events at the ford and knew to add some elemental touches to the rushing waves in the form of charging horses etc. He was not watching events at the ford personally - at least there is no evidence he was there.

p.s. I really don't understand people when they are put off by the size of the book - by todays standards it is not that large and I also find it easy to read. The chapters are relatively small and concise. The writing flows by and other than first timers having to get used to some new words and languages it is not daunting.


(This post was edited by Eruonen on Apr 19 2017, 4:45pm)


FarFromHome
Valinor


Apr 20 2017, 8:37am

Post #136 of 153 (3005 views)
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It's all about real world vs wraith-world with the Nazgul [In reply to] Can't Post

What you describe here is what Frodo sees, first when he has the Ring on and then when he's falling into the wraith-world after being stabbed. The Nazgul have plenty of "physicality" and power in the wraith-world, as Frodo sees very clearly once he starts to get pulled into that world himself.

Glorfindel may well be in more peril from the Nazgul than the ordinary mortals are, since he exists in both "worlds" - and so presumably does Gandalf, who has such a difficult battle with them on Weathertop. Aragorn and the hobbits are more endangered by the real-world horses I think, although now all nine Riders are together the danger of the Black Breath will be greater too.

It's only at the Council of Elrond that some of the backstory we're missing so far will be filled in, including Gandalf's battle on Weathertop, only hinted at so far by the lightning-type flashes Aragorn and the hobbits saw ahead of them one night. We learn there too that only two Nazgul apparently went to Bree, while four went to Crickhollow. That makes it seem even more likely that they would have needed human helpers for the attack on the Pony. But even that is still just theorizing by Gandalf, so you could say it's all still fair game for our own imaginations!

They went in, and Sam shut the door.
But even as he did so, he heard suddenly,
deep and unstilled,
the sigh and murmur of the Sea upon the shores of Middle-earth.
From the unpublished Epilogue to the Lord of the Rings



CuriousG
Half-elven


Apr 20 2017, 10:53am

Post #137 of 153 (2998 views)
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How did Gandalf know about the Ford? [In reply to] Can't Post

Gandalf's clairvoyance seems particularly lacking since he didn't sense the Warg attack or the Watcher in the water at Hollin Gate. So my conclusion is that he piggybacks off of Elrond, who is clairvoyant in his own realm the way Galadriel is in hers. (She'll tell the Fellowship that she can't see Gandalf in her mind unless he crosses the borders of Lorien.)


Eruonen
Half-elven


Apr 21 2017, 2:11pm

Post #138 of 153 (2880 views)
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It appears Elrond is quite the surgeon as well [In reply to] Can't Post

....having found and removed a splinter deep into the wound.

They cut the scene in DOS where Tauriel is using her knife to open up Kili's wound and probe it for the arrow shard.


Eruonen
Half-elven


Apr 21 2017, 2:38pm

Post #139 of 153 (2873 views)
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I think Gandalf is a bit harsh in his assessment of Tom Bombadil [In reply to] Can't Post

Tom was more clued in than I think Gandalf realized and though it is likely true he did not want to be involved in the Ring business as a guardian etc. I don't think he would be careless with it. He might even give it to Goldberry.....who then might become like the dark image of Galadriel with her test. But, eventually, Sauron might learn of its whereabouts and Tom's country would be under seige. What would happen is anyones guess. I almost envision a contest of wrent lands and uplifted earth etc. In the end, his country would probably be destroyed and he would leave (to where?). Whether the Ring could be taken from him is another matter.


CuriousG
Half-elven


Apr 21 2017, 5:12pm

Post #140 of 153 (2859 views)
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That might be Tolkien speaking through Gandalf [In reply to] Can't Post

in that he created this very powerful person in Tom Bombadil for whom the Ring is no temptation, and Tom can even see Frodo when the latter is wearing it. So, logical readers want to know why the Ring can't be just left with Tom, so Tolkien is forcefully rebutting that idea. "I said it had to go to Mordor, that's the whole plot of this book. And no, the Eagles won't fly it there."


Eruonen
Half-elven


Apr 21 2017, 6:53pm

Post #141 of 153 (2847 views)
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One of the often forgotten character is Erestor [In reply to] Can't Post

He actually plays a large role in the council but we don't know that much about him from the book.

He acted like Elrond's "consiglieri" ;)

http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Erestor

And Galdor

http://tolkiengateway.net/...Galdor_of_the_Havens


(This post was edited by Eruonen on Apr 21 2017, 6:57pm)


Eruonen
Half-elven


Apr 21 2017, 7:48pm

Post #142 of 153 (2841 views)
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It does make me wonder why Cirdan could not be bothered to show up but [In reply to] Can't Post

sends Galdor in his place. Tool sharpening day? Tree felling day?
Sail cloth sewing day?


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Apr 21 2017, 8:38pm

Post #143 of 153 (2837 views)
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Círdan and the Council of Elrond [In reply to] Can't Post

The Council of Elrond was not a meeting of the White Council that was called for in advance; otherwise, we would have expected Galadriel (and Celeborn?) to be present as well. The last recorded meeting of the White Council was in TA 2953, when Saruman assured the Wise that the One Ring had been washed down the Anduin into the Sea. Galdor was likely already present in Rivendell on other business and remained as Círdan's representative. All things considered, the White Council was still well represented.

"He who lies artistically, treads closer to the truth than ever he knows." -- Favorite proverb of the wizard Ningauble of the Seven Eyes


Eruonen
Half-elven


Apr 21 2017, 8:52pm

Post #144 of 153 (2831 views)
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Which raises the question of why Galadriel was not present. [In reply to] Can't Post

Of all times for a White Council meeting - Saruman excepted of course - it would be to discuss what to do with the most momentous discovery in ages. Galadriel may be present via telepathy.


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Apr 21 2017, 11:47pm

Post #145 of 153 (2828 views)
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Not a White Council Meeting [In reply to] Can't Post

That's just it, this was NOT a meeting of the White Council. The last (as in final) formal meeting of the WC was in 2953. It never met again after that. The Council of Elrond was an ad hoc meeting of important personages among the Free Peoples of Middle-earth who happened to be present in Rivendell at the time. Forget any mention of summons from the Peter Jackson version.

"He who lies artistically, treads closer to the truth than ever he knows." -- Favorite proverb of the wizard Ningauble of the Seven Eyes


Eruonen
Half-elven


Apr 22 2017, 12:05am

Post #146 of 153 (2824 views)
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My point is that it deserved a White Council level of meeting due to the [In reply to] Can't Post

most profound issue imaginable. Anyway, it is as JRR Tolkien wanted it and left Galadriel "downstream" so to say. It makes sense from a plotting point of view to have her enter the story when she did.


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Apr 22 2017, 12:31am

Post #147 of 153 (2812 views)
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Mental Communicaiton [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
most profound issue imaginable. Anyway, it is as JRR Tolkien wanted it and left Galadriel "downstream" so to say. It makes sense from a plotting point of view to have her enter the story when she did.


I don't think that the mind-to-mind communication among the Wise worked that way outside of the movies. My impression was that it was strictly short-range unless enhanced by something such as the Seeing-stones.

"He who lies artistically, treads closer to the truth than ever he knows." -- Favorite proverb of the wizard Ningauble of the Seven Eyes


CuriousG
Half-elven


Apr 22 2017, 8:58pm

Post #148 of 153 (2767 views)
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She does get a more dramatic role to play by appearing later [In reply to] Can't Post

Not even Gandalf is present to compete for the spotlight of who is Wisest in the room. All attention is on her. Plus we get the great temptation scene by the Mirror, which wouldn't have been the same in the crowded Council room, unless she were to woo Frodo to some secluded spot in Rivendell later.

But I think you're right that by the story's inner logic, she should have been present, just as Elrond said those present were called to be there, but not by him. With all the bursts of foresight that Tolkien characters have throughout his stories, she should have had some urging in her heart to get herself to Rivendell, though she knew not why.

Or maybe not. Would she have argued for any other course of action than Elrond & Gandalf did? Would her arguments have been redundant with theirs? Then she would have been diluted as a thinker and independent ruler.


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Apr 22 2017, 11:09pm

Post #149 of 153 (2746 views)
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The Fickle Finger of Eru [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Would she have argued for any other course of action than Elrond & Gandalf did? Would her arguments have been redundant with theirs? Then she would have been diluted as a thinker and independent ruler.


Here is where we see the Foresight of Eru, who knew that Galadriel was needed more in her own Realm so she could be available to aid the Fellowship at their time of need.

"He who lies artistically, treads closer to the truth than ever he knows." -- Favorite proverb of the wizard Ningauble of the Seven Eyes


sevilodorf
Tol Eressea


Apr 24 2017, 2:32am

Post #150 of 153 (2682 views)
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More an Endless Trudge than a Flight to the Ford [In reply to] Can't Post

Flight to me implies speed.... which does not describe the hobbits movements here. Also how does the mighty Ranger get turned around so that they go off course more than once?

2. As mentioned elsewhere -- why didn't the Nazgul press their advantage?

3. Aragorn singing (spellcasting) over the Morgul blade and Frodo's wounds. The hands of the King bring healing.

4. "Even Strider seened tired and heavy hearted" Effect of the Ring? the Nazgul? or just honest weariness? or combination?

5. Pippin and the Trolls -- can visualize it years later... this is the tale that gets told sitting around the table.

6. Frodo's prediction for Sam that he will become a Wizard and a Warrior.... he does at least somewhat to both.

7. Bells on Glorfindel's horse --- if you're tracking or trying to avoid wouldn't these cause a problem?

8. Gildor's messengers strike again....

Fourth Age Adventures at the Inn of the Burping Troll http://burpingtroll.com
Home of TheOneRing.net Best FanFic stories of 2005 and 2006 "The Last Grey Ship" and "Ashes, East Wind, Hope That Rises" by Erin Rua

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