Our Sponsor Sideshow Collectibles Send us News
Lord of the Rings Tolkien
Search Tolkien
Lord of The RingsTheOneRing.net - Forged By And For Fans Of JRR Tolkien
Lord of The Rings Serving Middle-Earth Since The First Age

Lord of the Rings Movie News - J.R.R. Tolkien
Do you enjoy the 100% volunteer, not for profit services of TheOneRing.net?
Consider a donation!

  Main Index   Search Posts   Who's Online   Log in
The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Reading Room:
Fellowship of The Ring - unofficial, unsanctioned, unsolicited read through
First page Previous page 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 Next page Last page  View All

Eruonen
Valinor


Apr 1 2017, 8:09pm

Post #1 of 153 (6557 views)
Shortcut
Fellowship of The Ring - unofficial, unsanctioned, unsolicited read through Can't Post

I have not read the books cover to cover in years - I have been a great skimmer, being able to pick up any of the volumes and open randomly for some reading pleasure.

So, it is a almost a new experience going back and reading the books page by page. Much is new again (long since forgotten or not considered at the time).

Since there have been official read throughs my only comments will be focused on a few new things that stand out to me - hopefully not well trod ground.

I already mentioned the Prologue in an earlier post...the whole present tense angle for continued existence of Hobbits and Elves etc.

A Long-Expected Party

As others have noted in detail, this chapter demonstrates the tentative start to a tale that had not been completely thought out.
Some anachronisms, similar to what T.H. White may have employed pop up...."The dragon passed like an express train...."
Even age of Walmart complaints "some grumbling about dealing locally.."

I had forgotten Gandalf created the fireworks (thinking they were dwarvish) and I had forgotten the numerous dwarves who came and helped deliver and stayed with Bilbo. Hey Gandalf, too bad you had not thought to weaponize those rockets for use against the orc hordes!

The conversations of the hobbits strike me as something from the American frontier / south (I wonder if it reflects JRR Tolkien's interest in Appalachia names and James Fenimore Cooper) as much as an English rural society. I suppose there are commonalities.

The obvious comparison of Hobbit living with rabbits...."Brandy Hall. A regular warren by all accounts...."

Recurrent throughout the history of ME are the loooong time intervals between events. Gandalf is gone for 9 years then some more until about 14 years separate the part and the next events.

Just a few observations.....will add some as the following chapters inspire me to.....there may be none or few...it will depend.


Eruonen
Valinor


Apr 1 2017, 8:28pm

Post #2 of 153 (6381 views)
Shortcut
The Shadow of the Past [In reply to] Can't Post

Peter Jackson employed a great deal of dialogue from this chapter - in different places and event etc.

Sam uses "Lor" quite a bit which is another anachronism to my ears - I think of "Lord or Lordy"....."Lor bless you Mr. Gandalf".....I don't think invoking Eru was meant as a common attribution. Again, it sounds like an American South expression.

Q Major error? Gandalf to Frodo - "Give me the ring for a moment." Seems totally out of character as later in the chapter when Frodo offered the ring to him Gandalf recoiled at the temptation.


(This post was edited by Eruonen on Apr 1 2017, 8:30pm)


noWizardme
Valinor


Apr 2 2017, 5:40pm

Post #3 of 153 (6321 views)
Shortcut
Lor bless you Eruonen! [In reply to] Can't Post

There's always scope for another read-through Smile

It's interesting that hobbit-talk strikes you as Southern-States USA - it strikes me as being a somewhat 'Mummerset': the kind of all-purpose country bumpkin accent that actors of Tolkien's time might use to suggest a generalised West Country accent . ('West Country' here meaning West of England - Somerset, Gloucerstershire, Devon). Maybe colonists from that area had an influence of Southern States speech? Or is the effect one of supposed rusticity, on either continent?
The actor Bernard Miles was noted for monologues using 'Mummerset' e.g. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hb7x4Y-7pOQ , if you want to hear what I hear when I read.

The accent is perhaps a little cliched, like the music hall cockney trolls of The Hobbit. But in Tolkien's defence, he's quickly setting up the rustic hobbits in a fairly light-hearted way. Perhaps that does, as you suggest, reflect on LOTR starting out being 'The Hobbit II'. Tolkien of course had an opportunity to re-write when he knew where the story was going to go - but in many ways I'm glad he didn't. By the time the story finally returns to the Shire, the levity makes sense.

My own take on 'Lor bless you' etc. is that it fits into this accent. Maybe the rustics are not supposed to be consciously invoking Eru - Tolkien would have it that he was a translator, and could argue that he's rendering whatever the hobbits would have said into the appropriate contemporary English and the accent he'd already chosen. Personaly I like the idea of the hobbits retaining some old expressions with little understanding of their meanings - just as a family might have some old mathom over the fire place that was once a mathum - a prestigious gift to a warrior by their lord, perhaps as a token of esteem for feats of valour. It would pop us out of context if a rustic hobbit suddenly spouted 'By the Valar' or some such.

Such degrades do happen in real English - I don't hear 'blimey' much any more, but when I do, the speaker is just expressing surprise, excitement, or alarm: they do not intend 'God blind me' (or 'God blame me').

~~~~~~
Where's that old read-through discussion?
A wonderful list of links to previous chapters in the 2014-2016 LOTR read-through (and to previous read-throughs) is curated by our very own 'squire' here http://users.bestweb.net/...-SixthDiscussion.htm


Eruonen
Valinor


Apr 2 2017, 7:03pm

Post #4 of 153 (6305 views)
Shortcut
True, the speech patterns are just transplanted [In reply to] Can't Post

from the English and Scotch-Irish settlers to the American south. It is basically a common "rustic" speech. I can definitely see Bernard Mills sitting on a stool at the Green Dragon talking to Hamfast Gamgee.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eXghKHHzlXQ

Appalachian Mountain Talk


(This post was edited by Eruonen on Apr 2 2017, 7:05pm)


Eruonen
Valinor


Apr 2 2017, 7:15pm

Post #5 of 153 (6298 views)
Shortcut
More commonalities but further changed by isolation [In reply to] Can't Post

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ohgOxfzNe3M

The Shire fell into such an insular community.

I think of Wales coal country and West Virgina

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5MmbbPLEUFw

Wales
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/...54de444ca67a168f.jpg


Cornish
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/...ef689f26563548ad.jpg

Welsh boys
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/...e1e9b751f0091dde.jpg


(This post was edited by Eruonen on Apr 2 2017, 7:27pm)


Eruonen
Valinor


Apr 2 2017, 7:33pm

Post #6 of 153 (6292 views)
Shortcut
Some west midlands accents and words [In reply to] Can't Post

http://www.birminghammail.co.uk/...rases-accent-6477059

Birmingham and the Black Country are known for their local sayings - which ones have you heard of?


sevilodorf
Grey Havens


Apr 2 2017, 11:11pm

Post #7 of 153 (6273 views)
Shortcut
Could this be more of a Lord as in King/Duke/Earl rather than religious?// [In reply to] Can't Post

 

Fourth Age Adventures at the Inn of the Burping Troll http://burpingtroll.com
Home of TheOneRing.net Best FanFic stories of 2005 and 2006 "The Last Grey Ship" and "Ashes, East Wind, Hope That Rises" by Erin Rua

(Found in Mathoms, LOTR Tales Untold)




Eruonen
Valinor


Apr 2 2017, 11:32pm

Post #8 of 153 (6274 views)
Shortcut
It crossed my mind...but the "Lor, bless you" part makes me [In reply to] Can't Post

think it was in the religious Lord sense....due to the "bless" usage.
I don't know that the secular lord would be part of a blessing.

bless
verb
pronounce words in a religious rite, to confer or invoke divine favor upon; ask God to look favorably on.

bless·ing

noun
God's favor and protection.
a prayer asking for God's favor and protection.


(This post was edited by Eruonen on Apr 2 2017, 11:34pm)


sevilodorf
Grey Havens


Apr 3 2017, 12:12am

Post #9 of 153 (6276 views)
Shortcut
Thoughts as I read..... [In reply to] Can't Post

Various thoughts and musings...

1. "It will have to be paid for," they said.
A recurring theme.... magic comes at a price.
And major foreshadowing.

2. Why 33 for coming of age? Why the tweens?
A reaction to Tolkien's experiences in the war? Looking back and seeing the loss of the youth as a mistake and wanting to protect them. Or more in that he wanted the hobbits to be viewed as childlike?

3. Frodo was 12 when his parents died. Why did Bilbo wait until Frodo was 21 to adopt him?
Was it thought best to leave a young lad in a household with other children and an assortment of mother figures?

4. "Mr. Bilbo has learned his his letters...meaning no harm, mark you, and I hope no harm comes of it"
Were hobbits unlettered? This sounds like class driven criticism. Gaffer not wanting Sam to be thought of as reaching beyond his station. But hobbits delight in wills with seven witnesses so must be able to read and write.

5. "No Admittance Except on Party Business"
Who was guarding the gate? Frodo and friends. The dwarves?

6. Unbirthday presents....
Is the source of this idea Alice in Wonderland (Through the Looking Glass)?

7. Dates and ages.... using Shire Reckoning... Frodo born 1368 His parents died when he was 12 in 1380 which is the year Sam was born. Merry was born in 1382 and Pippin in 1390. At the time of the party, Frodo is 33, Sam is 21, Merry 19 and Pippin 11.

8. When Bilbo leaves, he drops the envelope with the ring and Gandalf picks it up and puts it on the mantle.

Amazing how much of the dialog did make it into the movie...though bits and pieces were rearranged to deal with the age issues and the requirements of the film medium.

Fourth Age Adventures at the Inn of the Burping Troll http://burpingtroll.com
Home of TheOneRing.net Best FanFic stories of 2005 and 2006 "The Last Grey Ship" and "Ashes, East Wind, Hope That Rises" by Erin Rua

(Found in Mathoms, LOTR Tales Untold)




sevilodorf
Grey Havens


Apr 3 2017, 12:19am

Post #10 of 153 (6266 views)
Shortcut
jumping ahead in the text [In reply to] Can't Post

Elrond says "Farewell, and the may the blessing of Elves, Men and all Free Folk go with you."

An indication that secular blessings were a part of Middle Earth.

Fourth Age Adventures at the Inn of the Burping Troll http://burpingtroll.com
Home of TheOneRing.net Best FanFic stories of 2005 and 2006 "The Last Grey Ship" and "Ashes, East Wind, Hope That Rises" by Erin Rua

(Found in Mathoms, LOTR Tales Untold)




Eruonen
Valinor


Apr 3 2017, 1:01am

Post #11 of 153 (6261 views)
Shortcut
Very good comments! [In reply to] Can't Post

2. Yes, I wonder if some of it may have to do with the time it takes to learn a trade/craft and assume adult responsiblities. Hobbits appear to have somewhat longer on average lifespans.
3. Yes, I believe growing up in a large family was preferential to living with a bachelor uncle.
4. There certainly are some class divisions in The Shire. I don't know that "education" as we know it took place. I think Hobbits were selectively educated - maybe not due to class - but more related to need. Gaffer probably had no need for "letter learning."
5. I don't think Hobbits broke conventional rules (other than Lobelia who would have pushed past it).
7. Hmm, so if he left at 50 than Pippin would have been 28 and Merry 36. It is a bit hard to imagine Pippin being a long term pal due to age - maybe for 5 years or so as Frodo was no longer living arund them. I guess he organized some long trekking activities with his younger cousins.
8. Yes, several times Gandalf is close to the ring and or actually handles it...error in plot?


Eruonen
Valinor


Apr 3 2017, 1:17am

Post #12 of 153 (6251 views)
Shortcut
Well, in that context the blessing source is identified and the Elves had [In reply to] Can't Post

a bit of divine glow - at least the more powerful ones.

But, in the case of "Lor" assuming Lord, said by a Hobbit, I am left to think it was an anachronism that came into the dialogue.


Eruonen
Valinor


Apr 3 2017, 3:05am

Post #13 of 153 (6246 views)
Shortcut
Three Is Company - one of my favorite small chapters [In reply to] Can't Post

One of the pleasures of reading the books is realizing how your memory is either faulty or has been colored by other sources - such as the movies. Some of the things I had forgotten:

Frodo sells Bag End
Pippen is with Frodo and Sam when they set out.
Gildor's company of elves is coming from the West i.e. presumably the Gray Havens. For some reason I was thinking they were coming from Rivendell and going to the Havens.

Time issues again....Gandalf is aware of the Enemy actively looking for the Ring and even knows that Gollum exposed the name Baggins. One would think that extreme haste would be required....but once again...things move slowly, months go by etc.

There is still some trace of transition in the story - it still has some elements of "fairy story"...especially with the fox. If you don't recall that little scene try to find it.
I wish the song for Elbereth had used "Ever-White" instead of "Snow-White" as it always brings up the connotation of "Snow White".


The Black Riders have entered the Shire...what happened to the watchful Dunedain?

I have always loved the encounter with the Elves. Gildor makes some remarks about The Shire land was not always populated by Hobbits and others before and after them will occupy it.
When he says he will send messages throughout the lands I wonder if he meant via Elves or possibly via creatures....birds etc.?
Gilder seeks a blessing in a way by invoking Elbereth (Varda) for protection of Frodo and the Hobbits.


(This post was edited by Eruonen on Apr 3 2017, 3:14am)


noWizardme
Valinor


Apr 3 2017, 12:25pm

Post #14 of 153 (6222 views)
Shortcut
"error in plot? " - I don't think so [In reply to] Can't Post

I think Gandalf is willing to touch the Ring if he must, and that's very different from agreeing to become its keeper (something he refuses very firmly).

The distinction is one Elrond makes when briefing the departing Fellowship:


Quote
‘The Ring-bearer is setting out on the Quest of Mount Doom. On him alone is any charge laid: neither to cast away the Ring, nor to deliver it to any servant of the Enemy nor indeed to let any handle it, save members of the Company and the Council, and only then in gravest need.

The Ring Goes South (with my bolds)


For one example, when Frodo regains consciousness at the start of Book II, he finds that :


Quote
"When he had dressed, Frodo found that while he slept the Ring had been hung about his neck on a new chain, light but strong."

Many Meetings


So someone has removed the Ring from the chain (like a pocket-watch chain) on which Frodo kept it in Book I. They've attached it to this new chain and then given it back. I conclude that, however the Ring works it isn't 'binds on contact'.

~~~~~~
Where's that old read-through discussion?
A wonderful list of links to previous chapters in the 2014-2016 LOTR read-through (and to previous read-throughs) is curated by our very own 'squire' here http://users.bestweb.net/...-SixthDiscussion.htm


Meneldor
Valinor


Apr 3 2017, 1:17pm

Post #15 of 153 (6214 views)
Shortcut
Searching for Gollum, maybe? [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
The Black Riders have entered the Shire...what happened to the watchful Dunedain?

I don't remember the timeline clearly, did that happen after Gollum escaped? Were the Rangers trying to track him down? That would be a good excuse to be away from their usual posts.


They that go down to the sea in ships, that do business in great waters, these see the works of the Lord, and His wonders in the deep. -Psalm 107


sevilodorf
Grey Havens


Apr 3 2017, 1:20pm

Post #16 of 153 (6218 views)
Shortcut
Does it need skin contact? [In reply to] Can't Post

Is it also affected by length of time and the intent of the handler?

Though too some of the "inconsistencies" may be due to the importance and peer of the ring growing over the course of the story and Tolkien not going back and thoroughly rewriting from back to front?

Fourth Age Adventures at the Inn of the Burping Troll http://burpingtroll.com
Home of TheOneRing.net Best FanFic stories of 2005 and 2006 "The Last Grey Ship" and "Ashes, East Wind, Hope That Rises" by Erin Rua

(Found in Mathoms, LOTR Tales Untold)




sevilodorf
Grey Havens


Apr 3 2017, 1:25pm

Post #17 of 153 (6213 views)
Shortcut
The Rangers were driven off at Sarn Ford on September 22 [In reply to] Can't Post

And entered the Shire on the 23rd. It's all fortuitous happenstance that saves Frodo

Fourth Age Adventures at the Inn of the Burping Troll http://burpingtroll.com
Home of TheOneRing.net Best FanFic stories of 2005 and 2006 "The Last Grey Ship" and "Ashes, East Wind, Hope That Rises" by Erin Rua

(Found in Mathoms, LOTR Tales Untold)




noWizardme
Valinor


Apr 3 2017, 4:08pm

Post #18 of 153 (6196 views)
Shortcut
well perhaps, but... [In reply to] Can't Post

One of my favourite things about the Ring is that it is a mystery - so it's hard to infer exactly how it might affect people.

For my money, seeing it or touching it is an acute temptation, though not necessarily a fatal one. And, meanwhile, characters who have not touched it can be tempted. So I guess it is about how tempted a particular person is, and how able they are to resist, rather than the Ring working like a poison or radiation.

~~~~~~
Where's that old read-through discussion?
A wonderful list of links to previous chapters in the 2014-2016 LOTR read-through (and to previous read-throughs) is curated by our very own 'squire' here http://users.bestweb.net/...-SixthDiscussion.htm


noWizardme
Valinor


Apr 3 2017, 4:15pm

Post #19 of 153 (6195 views)
Shortcut
Time issues again... people are very reluctant to advise Frodo [In reply to] Can't Post

Military logic would indeed suggest that Gandalf ought to get Frodo on the road without delay. But I notice that nobody wise is willing to advise Frodo very much at all. I think that they think his fate is very bound up with the Ring, and he needs to be the one making the decisions, because his decisions, strangely enough, have the best chance of turning out right. If he felt 'in his heart' a sudden need to set off in an unexpected direction, there would turn out to be a reason for it.

Imagine if, for example, Gandalf had succumbed to the urgency of it all and had done the 'sensible thing' - bustled Frodo off to Orthanc without delay to get help from Saruman....Shocked

~~~~~~
Where's that old read-through discussion?
A wonderful list of links to previous chapters in the 2014-2016 LOTR read-through (and to previous read-throughs) is curated by our very own 'squire' here http://users.bestweb.net/...-SixthDiscussion.htm


Eruonen
Valinor


Apr 3 2017, 6:13pm

Post #20 of 153 (6180 views)
Shortcut
Yes, there is very much a "providence" at role here.... [In reply to] Can't Post

Gandalf to the Elves refrain as much as possible in offering help and when they do it is done reluctantly...thinking of the conversation with Gildor. It is kinda of like - "well, the hot potato is yours, please handle with care and may Elbereth watch over you.....we are going to get he heck out of Dodge soon so good luck with that!"


Eruonen
Valinor


Apr 3 2017, 7:30pm

Post #21 of 153 (6174 views)
Shortcut
Here you go, a videogame representation.....since we will never see a movie version [In reply to] Can't Post

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c6duC7TFRTc

Historical Battle #8: The Battle at the Sarn Ford

See - Unfinished Tales, The Hunt for the Ring


(This post was edited by Eruonen on Apr 3 2017, 7:37pm)


CuriousG
Half-elven


Apr 3 2017, 8:41pm

Post #22 of 153 (6154 views)
Shortcut
Weaponizing fireworks [In reply to] Can't Post

Isn't it true that the Chinese used fireworks for centuries more for aerial displays than for warfare? (I'm no expert; maybe it's one of those things that gets repeated but isn't true.) But if true, that shows how illogical the real world can be, and gives Gandalf an excuse on this one. (And Tolkien too.)


Eruonen
Valinor


Apr 3 2017, 9:18pm

Post #23 of 153 (6145 views)
Shortcut
And maybe the Istari...at least the good ones...did not want to introduce such things [In reply to] Can't Post

It may have been a restriction, but certainly humans could see the potential, (setting aside the Dwarves in the movie making use of gunpowder).


sevilodorf
Grey Havens


Apr 4 2017, 3:44am

Post #24 of 153 (6132 views)
Shortcut
Shadow of the Past -- Thoughts and niggles [In reply to] Can't Post

1. Frodo's mid life crisis -- Shoulda, coulda, woulda....

2. Where did these strange dwarves from far off countries come from? The Iron Hills? The Ash Mountains? If they were kin or known to Dain surely he would have sent messages.

3. Was it an Ent Sam's cousin saw or maybe a Huron?

4. Does it make the Ring more dangerous that Frodo now knows what it is? Bilbo seems to have been partially protected by his ignorance (and of course that strong hobbit core of sense).

5. Seems hard to believe that Frodo never heard of Saruman -- after all he consorts with Elves and strange Dwarves... and we know what gossips they are.

6. If Gandalf had spoken to Saruman forty years ago.... would it have all turned out differently? Could Saruman has been turned from his path of betrayal or was it already too late? And if Saruman knows about the Shire (he is said to keep agents in Bree beginning in 2953 -- how does he keep this knowledge secret from Sauron after they become BFFs?)

7.As Eruonen noted.... Gandalf handles the ring twice... then refuses to take it....

8. Implied torture of Gollum.... a taint upon Gandalf's soul?

Fourth Age Adventures at the Inn of the Burping Troll http://burpingtroll.com
Home of TheOneRing.net Best FanFic stories of 2005 and 2006 "The Last Grey Ship" and "Ashes, East Wind, Hope That Rises" by Erin Rua

(Found in Mathoms, LOTR Tales Untold)




Eruonen
Valinor


Apr 4 2017, 4:57am

Post #25 of 153 (6127 views)
Shortcut
It is a remembrance for me that Frodo starts off basically as [In reply to] Can't Post

Bilbo in The Hobbit....50, a little fat, less active than he had been - and Pippin jokes about getting him in shape.

Yes, the dwarves are mentioned for his party - but no identity assigned. My guess would have to be The Iron Hills due to proximity.

Hobbits were sooooo insulated from the world and preferred to keep it that way. Now Frodo, being more of a wanderer and friend of various non-Hobbits certainly would have been more aware - you would think.

It seems Saruman was well on the path of betrayal. He would have grabbed Bilbo and possibly obtained the ring.

Gandalf was apparently willing to use various means to break Gollum - you could look upon it as torture or you could look upon it as a forced therapy - had Gollum not escaped his Elven prison may have eventually have brought him some benefit.

First page Previous page 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 Next page Last page  View All
 
 

Search for (options) Powered by Gossamer Forum v.1.2.3

home | advertising | contact us | back to top | search news | join list | Content Rating

This site is maintained and updated by fans of The Lord of the Rings, and is in no way affiliated with Tolkien Enterprises or the Tolkien Estate. We in no way claim the artwork displayed to be our own. Copyrights and trademarks for the books, films, articles, and other promotional materials are held by their respective owners and their use is allowed under the fair use clause of the Copyright Law. Design and original photography however are copyright © 1999-2012 TheOneRing.net. Binary hosting provided by Nexcess.net

Do not follow this link, or your host will be blocked from this site. This is a spider trap.