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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Lord of the Rings:
wait--a menu?

Alveric
Rivendell


Mar 29 2017, 7:04pm

Post #1 of 25 (5633 views)
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wait--a menu? Can't Post

In Two Towers, remember when the orcs are carrying Merry and Pippin, and they stop for a break, have their squabble about possibly eating a bit of Hobbit, and one orc gets beheaded... And the other orc says, "Looks like meat's back on the menu, boys!"
I always get distracted here. Wait... a menu? How would orcs from Mordor even know about a menu? What, do they have orc restaurants? What would be on a Cafe d'Orc menu anyway?


CuriousG
Half-elven


Mar 29 2017, 9:14pm

Post #2 of 25 (5565 views)
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I guess that one flies past me fast enough I never think about it. [In reply to] Can't Post

You're right, how *would* they know anything about menus? It seems as out of place as Orcs saying, "The fashion show is over, girls. Get back to the battle." (I wouldn't expect them to know about fashion shows either.)


Darkstone
Immortal


Mar 29 2017, 9:46pm

Post #3 of 25 (5567 views)
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That's exactly the reason why they invaded Rohan. [In reply to] Can't Post

They wanted to visit the Hornburger King.

******************************************
"They also serve who only stand and draw fire."
-Timothy J. Gawne


L. Ron Halfelven
Grey Havens


Mar 29 2017, 11:37pm

Post #4 of 25 (5546 views)
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Children McNuggets? Battered Women? Edith Pilaf?// [In reply to] Can't Post



Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Mar 30 2017, 1:59am

Post #5 of 25 (5543 views)
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What's an occasional anachronism between us and Jackson? [In reply to] Can't Post

Even Tolkien couldn't resist a few.

"He who lies artistically, treads closer to the truth than ever he knows." -- Favorite proverb of the wizard Ningauble of the Seven Eyes


Loresilme
Valinor


Mar 30 2017, 2:06pm

Post #6 of 25 (5494 views)
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Fangorn Filly-delphia Cheesesteak? // [In reply to] Can't Post

 


Loresilme
Valinor


Mar 30 2017, 2:08pm

Post #7 of 25 (5496 views)
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Rohan Rillette ?? // [In reply to] Can't Post

 


(This post was edited by Loresilme on Mar 30 2017, 2:11pm)


Loresilme
Valinor


Mar 30 2017, 2:12pm

Post #8 of 25 (5494 views)
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Mincemeat di Meduseld ??? // [In reply to] Can't Post

 


Legomir
Rivendell

Mar 30 2017, 8:02pm

Post #9 of 25 (5484 views)
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And as Christian Rivers said... [In reply to] Can't Post

It implies that they have a sophisticated enough menu and restaurant system that something could be taken off it, and put back on. Laugh


CuriousG
Half-elven


Mar 30 2017, 8:51pm

Post #10 of 25 (5467 views)
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So Orcs restaurants are also Zagat rated? // [In reply to] Can't Post

 


L. Ron Halfelven
Grey Havens


Mar 30 2017, 9:25pm

Post #11 of 25 (5459 views)
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Well, Shagrat rated. Close enough!/ [In reply to] Can't Post



Lissuin
Valinor


Mar 30 2017, 10:30pm

Post #12 of 25 (5460 views)
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Wait--"maggoty bread"? [In reply to] Can't Post

Isn't that--meat? So what were they on about?

And, yeah, it took me outta the movie too, big time--but I forgive him.
Laugh


FarFromHome
Valinor


Apr 1 2017, 10:12am

Post #13 of 25 (5389 views)
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All-you-can-eat Manflesh? [In reply to] Can't Post

"These Gondorians are good. Crunchy on the outside, tender on the inside.."

"You fool, you're supposed to shell them first..."

Tongue

They went in, and Sam shut the door.
But even as he did so, he heard suddenly,
deep and unstilled,
the sigh and murmur of the Sea upon the shores of Middle-earth.
From the unpublished Epilogue to the Lord of the Rings



dormouse
Half-elven


Apr 1 2017, 1:36pm

Post #14 of 25 (5393 views)
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Punctuation... [In reply to] Can't Post

"Looks like meat's back! On the men, you boys!"

Punctuation and poor diction (after all, orcs don't go in for elocution lessons):

"Looks like meat's back! On 'im then, you boys!"

For still there are so many things
that I have never seen:
in every wood and every spring
there is a different green. . .


Lissuin
Valinor


Apr 2 2017, 12:00am

Post #15 of 25 (5351 views)
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I like this. [In reply to] Can't Post

I like this very much. SmileLaugh


Alveric
Rivendell


Apr 5 2017, 2:32pm

Post #16 of 25 (5170 views)
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nouveau mordor cuisine [In reply to] Can't Post

Customer 1: What have you got?
Waiter: Well, there's meat and eggs, meat and meat and slop, meat and meat sausage and meat...
C1: Have you got anything without meat?
W: There's meat, egg, meat sausage and meat, that doesn't have very much meat in it.
C1: But I don't want any meat!
Customer 2: Can he have the meat, egg, meat sausage and meat, without the meat?
Waiter: egg's off.
C2: Can I have his meat then?
W: You mean, meat, meat, meat, meat sausage, meat, meat and meat?

Vikings: meat, meat, meat, meat,etc.


AshNazg
Gondor


May 15 2017, 10:32pm

Post #17 of 25 (4583 views)
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I think I can probably answer this... What does the word menu mean? [In reply to] Can't Post

The first thing to keep in mind is that no-one in Middle-earth speaks English. The English language has evolved over time from a number of different dialects - from countries and cultures that do not exist in Middle-earth. The word 'menu' for example, comes from French "menu de repas" which in turn comes from Latin "minutus". Presumably, all of the dialogue in Lord of the Rings has been translated to modern English so that the audience understands it. So the Uruks may not have said the word menu at all.

So what did they say? Well the word 'menu' literally means a list (the menus in a computer window, for example, have nothing to do with food). The Uruk-hai were fairly organised, and they likely had lists of stores and rations for their army. So it's not unlikely that they would say "meat is back on the menu" referring to their ration list.

Wink Does that work for you?


AshNazg
Gondor


May 15 2017, 10:50pm

Post #18 of 25 (4581 views)
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Another possibility is that they don't know what they're saying... [In reply to] Can't Post

I mean, how did Uruks learn to speak anyway? Did Saruman teach them? I imagine, being born adults, they would communicate in primitive grunts and sounds (I think Tolkien tried to convey this with his orcish speech "Uglúk u bagronk sha pushdug Saruman-glob búbhosh skai!")

It would only be the higher-up Uruks who would speak common tongue in order to understand commands from Saruman.

It's possible that one day during speaking lessons Saruman used the phrase "***** is back on the menu" and the Uruks mimicked it not really knowing what it means. It's similar to how phrases like "I think therefore I am" and "you are what you eat" are often used today by people who don't really know what they mean.


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


May 16 2017, 12:01am

Post #19 of 25 (4576 views)
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Jackson's Uruk-hai vs. Jackson's [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
I mean, how did Uruks learn to speak anyway? Did Saruman teach them? I imagine, being born adults, they would communicate in primitive grunts and sounds (I think Tolkien tried to convey this with his orcish speech "Uglúk u bagronk sha pushdug Saruman-glob búbhosh skai!").

I would not confuse Tolkien's Orcs with Jackson's. I am certain that only Jackson's Uruk-hai were born alchemically as adults. Tolkien's Uruks were bred in a more conventional manner.

"He who lies artistically, treads closer to the truth than ever he knows." -- Favorite proverb of the wizard Ningauble of the Seven Eyes


Alveric
Rivendell


May 16 2017, 12:20pm

Post #20 of 25 (4536 views)
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Menu and list [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm not sure this answers the question, since every word they say was not in English either. The logical relationship between whatever they spoke (the Common Tongue, or one of the elvish languages) and English brings us to an unsolvable quandary which requires a suspension of disbelief. Tolkien could have resolved it by having some sort of preface, in which he, Tolkien, claims to have found an ancient document and translated it into English. A number of fantasy novels do this. But he didn't, and I'm glad of it.

In Fellowship, there's a jarring reference to Gandalf's fireworks being like an "express train" which is totally anachronistic; but the fact is, once we start examining each word, we find historical roots and references that could not exist in Middle-earth. My current book project on Chinese translations of Tolkien is highlighting this for me. But in order to enter that secondary world, we simply can't go there. We have to suspend disbelief.

"List" is certainly better than "menu," and yet, if "list" is what he meant, why did he say "menu"?

Maybe the orcs and co are not nearly so savage as they're presented. Maybe they do in fact have restaurants, theatres, schools...


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


May 16 2017, 2:46pm

Post #21 of 25 (4526 views)
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Wasn't 'menu' introduced by Jackson? [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
I'm not sure this answers the question, since every word they say was not in English either. The logical relationship between whatever they spoke (the Common Tongue, or one of the elvish languages) and English brings us to an unsolvable quandary which requires a suspension of disbelief. Tolkien could have resolved it by having some sort of preface, in which he, Tolkien, claims to have found an ancient document and translated it into English. A number of fantasy novels do this. But he didn't, and I'm glad of it.


Actually, Tolkien does exactly that. He presents the legendarium as ancient texts that have been translated from Westron, with himself as the translator. From where do you get a contrary impression? Anachronisms such as the use of the phrases 'freight train' and 'pop gun' are insertions from the 'translator' and presumably not in the 'original' manuscript.

But is this at all applicable with the line "Meat's back on the menu, boys!" which is from Peter Jackson and not Tolkien?

"He who lies artistically, treads closer to the truth than ever he knows." -- Favorite proverb of the wizard Ningauble of the Seven Eyes

(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on May 16 2017, 2:50pm)


Alveric
Rivendell


May 16 2017, 3:30pm

Post #22 of 25 (4515 views)
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he did? [In reply to] Can't Post

Where does he say he translated it?


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


May 16 2017, 3:37pm

Post #23 of 25 (4513 views)
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Where didn't he? [In reply to] Can't Post

In the Prologue to LotR there are references to the Red Book of Westmarch.right from the very first paragraph. Tolkien presents himself as translator numerous times in the Appendices. Do you have an edition (possibly a translated edition) that omits all of that?

"He who lies artistically, treads closer to the truth than ever he knows." -- Favorite proverb of the wizard Ningauble of the Seven Eyes

(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on May 16 2017, 3:39pm)


Alveric
Rivendell


May 16 2017, 10:37pm

Post #24 of 25 (4476 views)
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ah yes [In reply to] Can't Post

Deviously hidden away in the first paragraph of the book! OK, fair enough.


Ailsa
The Shire

May 18 2017, 4:34am

Post #25 of 25 (4382 views)
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Menu a la Orcs [In reply to] Can't Post

That is a "cute" illustration of Orc behavior!

Couple of possibilities:
1) Simple explanation: Saying, "What's on the menu?" is like saying. "What's for dinner?"
A: Bread, maggots are extra!

2) Complex explanation: Orcs have been around for ages. The LOTR saga is at the end of the 3rd Age. During that time, Orcs' fortunes have ebbed and flowed. They conquered cities and nations, and then lost them . In the captured territories, there must have been way-stations and inns, societies with advanced culture producing fine linens, jewelry and other products the Orcs would appreciate. Fine cuisine, too. They would not want to just destroy them all and lose the sources of all those desirable goods. They probably taxed the captive lands heavily and abused the population. Advances in learning probably wasn't possible. But, I would think it is reasonable that Orcs were familiar with the fruits of those places, even something like a menu at an inn located in, say, Minas Morgul!


(This post was edited by Ailsa on May 18 2017, 4:36am)

 
 

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