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Alveric
Lorien
Mar 22 2017, 5:57pm
Post #1 of 7
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There's a fair bit of attention to stars in LOTR, whether in phrases like "a star shines on our meeting," or the elves' "most beloved" star, and the evenstar imagery, etc. Yet is it really worship?
So I'm exploring the possibility that in the Chinese translations these star references might seem more fully religious than in the English. Because in Daoism, there are many deities associated with stars, the best-known being the "three stars" (the three gods representing prosperity, status, longevity).
Are the stars deities?
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joec_34
Rivendell
Mar 23 2017, 4:50pm
Post #2 of 7
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According to Mufasa in Disney's "The Lion King", stars are the great kings of the past looking down on us to guide us. Disney's Mulan shows us that China is into ancestor worship. Therefore, Disney suggests that in China, a Lion might worship the stars. Not exactly deity, but close.
I say this in jest. In seriousness, I suppose not, but have no clue what other cultures think about such things.
"Happy painting and God bless, my friend." - Bob Ross
(This post was edited by joec_34 on Mar 23 2017, 4:52pm)
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zarabia
Tol Eressea
Mar 24 2017, 8:34pm
Post #3 of 7
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I read your question earlier and was hoping someone would offer some insight even if they couldn't provide a concrete answer.
Have you ever read The Silmarillion? It includes a beautifully written creation myth and early history of Middle-earth. It's been too long since I read it so I don't know if you could find your answer there, but it's worth the read if you enjoy Tolkien. I especially loved the first two chapters, the telling and retelling of creation.
This synopsis is from Wikipedia:
The first section of The Silmarillion, Ainulindalë ("The Music of the Ainur"[7]), takes the form of a primary creation narrative. Eru ("The One"[8]), also called Ilúvatar ("Father of All"), first created the Ainur, a group of eternal spirits or demiurges, called "the offspring of his thought". Ilúvatar brought the Ainur together and showed them a theme, from which he bade them make a great music. Melkor — whom Ilúvatar had given the "greatest power and knowledge" of all the Ainur — broke from the harmony of the music to develop his own song. Some Ainur joined him, while others continued to follow Ilúvatar, causing discord in the music. This happened thrice, with Eru Ilúvatar successfully overpowering his rebellious subordinate with a new theme each time. Ilúvatar then stopped the music and showed them a vision of Arda and its peoples. The vision disappeared after a while, and Ilúvatar offered the Ainur a chance to enter into Arda and govern over the new world.
I don't remember from what's written whether the stars are thought to represent the Ainur or if they are taken to be the Ainur themselves.
Hope this helps some. Looking forward to hearing from others.
~Sometimes you have a problem, the kind you can't erase,
sometimes it jumps up and slaps you in the face.
Don't run around in circles, don't scream and don't shout,
just put your head together and figure it out.
Figure it out, baby, figure it out.
Figure it out, baby, figure it out!~
Brought to you by Sesame Street and LMNOP (Donald Glover) 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cMBbgy0TV6U
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dreamflower
Lorien
Mar 29 2017, 4:20am
Post #4 of 7
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Are the lights Varda scattered through the sky after the Lanps were destroyed by Morgoth. They are significant, but not sentient.
The Sun and Moon were created later after the Two Trees were destroyed. Arien and Tilion were the Maia who sailed them back and forth. The Maia were angelic figures, not gods.
The only sentient Star was Earendil. He sails the last of the Silmarils back and forth.
Hope that's useful insofar as how Tolkien viewed the Stars, but I'm not sure how this is interpreted in China.
Some people call it fanfiction. I call it story-internal literary criticism.
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dormouse
Half-elven
Mar 29 2017, 8:38am
Post #5 of 7
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As someone reading Tolkien in English, I'd say that the stars are not deities in themselves and are not worshipped as such, even by the elves. The characters look up to the stars, bless one another by the stars and so on because the stars are a reminder of of the Valar (who play a part in the creation of the earth), and through them, of Eru, the creator. The stars are a sign of hope, of the light beyond the darkness.
In The Silmarillion it describes how the Valar prepare for the awakening of the elves, the 'Firstborn'. On hearing that 'the Firstborn shall come in darkness and shall look first upon the stars', 'Varda went forth from the council. . . and beheld the darkness of Middle-earth beneath the innumerable stars, faint and far. Then she began a great labour. . . She took the silver dews from the vats of Telperion, and therewith she made new stars and brighter against the coming of the Firstborn....' It goes on to describe the constellations. And later, when the elves awake, these stars are the very first thing they see. 'Therefore they have ever loved the starlight and have revered Varda Elentari above all the other Valar.' That's why the star imagery is so powerful. Not the stars themselves, but the powers they represent.
Hope that makes sense!
For still there are so many things
that I have never seen:
in every wood and every spring
there is a different green. . .
(This post was edited by dormouse on Mar 29 2017, 8:39am)
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Alveric
Lorien
Mar 29 2017, 6:56pm
Post #6 of 7
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It comes down to how we take the word "revered" in the statement that the elves "revered Varda Elantari above all the other Valar." It can refer to a feeling of deep respect, or it might indicate an action. I looked in the Chinese for that line, but the terms (zunchong and zunjing) have the same ambiguity. It's fair to say Tolkien did not intend them to be seen as worshiping gods, and yet--come on, don't they kind of do that anyway? I'm wondering how far I can push this line of thought. Certainly Iluvatar is nothing less than a deity, creator of the world etc. And the Valar pretty much sing hymns of praise to Iluvatar, and call on Iluvatar for help, etc. (Except Melkor, of course) Aren't there elves who call on the Valar for help (like Ulmo)? But by the time we've descended to humans, that worship seems to have gone. Why don't the humans worship the gods? Or am I missing something here?
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Elthir
Grey Havens
Mar 30 2017, 1:34pm
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"That is they are the descendants of Men that tried to repent and fled Westward from the domination of the Prime Dark Lord, and his false worship, and by contrast with the Elves renewed (and enlarged) their knowledge of the truth and the nature of the World. Thus they escaped from ’religion’ in a pagan sense, into a pure montheist world, in which all things and beings and powers that might seem worshipful were not to be worshippd, not even the gods (the Valar), being only creatures of the One (Iluvatar). And He was immensely remote." (Letter 156, Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien).
So Tolkien, at least, drew a distinction here [not that you said he didn't]:
'The immediate 'authorities' are the Valar (the Powers or Authorities): the 'gods'. But they are only created spirits -- of high angelic order we should say, with their attendant lesser angels -- reverend therefore, but not wordshipful.' Draft to Peter Hastings 1954
Or as Carl F. Hostetter once put it: "Reverence is not worship. The Elves no more worshipped Varda than Catholics do Mary (a very common misconception)."
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