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Eruonen
Half-elven
Mar 22 2017, 2:10pm
Post #1 of 22
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Tom Bombadil - The Dark Side
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http://km-515.livejournal.com/1042.html
Oldest and Fatherless: The Terrible Secret of Tom Bombadil
This may have been posted in the past but it is a very interesting take on the same set of facts we all know well but may not have considered them in this light ...or should I say "dark".
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Mar 22 2017, 2:18pm
Post #2 of 22
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The Wise seem remarkably unconcerned.
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Yes, this has been discussed before with references to the article you cite. It's fun to speculate, but I don't believe this for a second. When the subject of Bombadil was brought up at the Council of Elrond, the Wise did not seem particularly worried over Tom except that he would have no care at all for the Ring and would more likely lose it than not. Or perhaps he would gift it to Goldberry (setting up another Dark Queen?).
"He who lies artistically, treads closer to the truth than ever he knows." -- Favorite proverb of the wizard Ningauble of the Seven Eyes
(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Mar 22 2017, 2:19pm)
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Darkstone
Immortal
Mar 22 2017, 2:19pm
Post #3 of 22
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"Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Bombadil Withywindle wgah'nagl fhtagn!" /
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******************************************
Aragorn and Legolas went now with Éomer in the van.
-Helm’s Deep, Chapter 7, Book III, The Two Towers
(Thanks to Brethil for image.)
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Eruonen
Half-elven
Mar 22 2017, 2:28pm
Post #4 of 22
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Ah, he just played uninterested biding his evil time ! ;)
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Lord of the Huorns! Willow Lord with his army of Barrow Wights.
His greatest weapon....his singing.
(This post was edited by Eruonen on Mar 22 2017, 2:34pm)
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CuriousG
Half-elven
Mar 23 2017, 12:06am
Post #5 of 22
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That article lost me at its first factual blunder
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And yet no hobbit has ever heard of him.
From "In The House of Tom Bombadil":
He appeared already to know much about them and all their families, and indeed to know much of all the history and doings of the Shire down from days hardly remembered among the hobbits themselves. It no longer surprised them; but he made no secret that he owed his recent knowledge largely to Farmer Maggot, whom he seemed to regard as a person of more importance than they had imagined.
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Eruonen
Half-elven
Mar 23 2017, 4:05am
Post #6 of 22
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I think it is true in a larger sense as Farmer Maggot was an exception.
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He seems to have been the only Hobbit who knew of Bombadil. Farmer Maggot is a rather special case personage for many reasons - he was much more plugged in to the wider world and acted as a almost a secret contact for various outsiders. It appears he kept his knowledge to himself or very few other Hobbits.
"Living in the borderlands Maggot had to be more on his guard than most Hobbits and for protection he kept three huge dogs called Grip, Fang, and Wolf.[2]" http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Farmer_Maggot
(This post was edited by Eruonen on Mar 23 2017, 4:10am)
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squire
Half-elven
Mar 23 2017, 4:55am
Post #7 of 22
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All of the hobbits of Buckland and the Marish knew who Bombadil was, though not 'what' he was
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Tolkien added 'Bombadil Goes A-Boating' to Tom's lore in his short poetry collection The Adventures of Tom Bombadil (1962). In it Tom jokes with an entire band of bounder hobbits, who threaten laughingly to shoot his hat full of arrows as he boats past on his way to a party at Maggot's house. In his editor's commentary, Tolkien says of the two Bombadil poems,
They show that the Bucklanders knew Bombadil, though, no doubt, they had as little understanding of his powers as the Shire-folk had of Gandalf's: both were regarded a benevolent persons, mysterious maybe and unpredictable but nonetheless comic. - Preface, The Adventures of Tom Bombadil
Maggot and Tom were certainly friends, but I never got the impression that Maggot was a particularly "special case personage" among the Marish farmers, nor that he "acted as almost a secret contact for various outsiders". Can you be more clear where those characterizations of him come from? The Tolkien Gateway's phrase "most hobbits", than whom he is more on guard with his fierce dogs, seems to refer to those who lived further west in the Shire, not to his neighbors in the Marish much less the large but alert colony of Buckland with its guards, fences, and contacts with Bree.
squire online:
RR Discussions: The Valaquenta, A Shortcut to Mushrooms, and Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit
Lights! Action! Discuss on the Movie board!: 'A Journey in the Dark'. and 'Designing The Two Towers'.
Archive: All the TORn Reading Room Book Discussions (including the 1st BotR Discussion!) and Footerama: "Tolkien would have LOVED it!"
Dr. Squire introduces the J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia: A Reader's Diary
 = Forum has no new posts. Forum needs no new posts.
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Mar 23 2017, 7:04am
Post #8 of 22
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...is that Maggot might have been a Bounder in his youth and first encountered Tom Bombadil at the High Hay, the hedge that separated Buckland from the Old Forest. It's only speculation; I have no evidence for my supposition.
I also suspect that if Tolkien had written more about "the three remarkable Took sisters (including Bilbo's mother) we might learn that Primula Took (and perhaps one or both of her adventurous sisters) might also have been acquainted with Old Tom.
"He who lies artistically, treads closer to the truth than ever he knows." -- Favorite proverb of the wizard Ningauble of the Seven Eyes
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Hamfast Gamgee
Tol Eressea
Mar 23 2017, 7:43am
Post #9 of 22
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I wonder if Farmer Maggot also knew about Aragorn and the Rangers?
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Mar 23 2017, 1:45pm
Post #10 of 22
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Some of the Bounders might have been more generally aware of the Rangers than were other Shire-hobbits. And if Maggot was a Bounder then this might apply to him as well. But I would be skeptical of the idea that any of them knew anything of substance about Aragorn. Few, if any, were likely to really understand exactly who and what the Rangers were.
"He who lies artistically, treads closer to the truth than ever he knows." -- Favorite proverb of the wizard Ningauble of the Seven Eyes
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Eruonen
Half-elven
Mar 23 2017, 2:16pm
Post #11 of 22
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....in the three volume set pg 143
"It no longer surprised them; but he made no secret that he owed his recent knowledge largely to Farmer Maggot, whom he seemed to regard as a person of more importance that they had imagined."
I put Maggot and Butterbur in similar categories - trusted citizens contacts of powerful people who will strive to do as asked and not ask too many questions.
(This post was edited by Eruonen on Mar 23 2017, 2:21pm)
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Darkstone
Immortal
Mar 23 2017, 3:52pm
Post #12 of 22
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Kinda like County Sheriff Deputies and State Troopers.
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It might be assumed the bounders worked with the rangers on occasion.
From http://middle-earth.xenite.org/...-rangers-and-things/
So if Aragorn’s people lived in the Angle, they could hardly have been wandering all over Eriador. The true wanderers were the Rangers themselves, and it would seem reasonable that the Rangers were only a small corps of special officers or soldiers charged with patrolling Eriador, specifically with policing the highways. The Dunedain could not maintain a court and prison system, but they could ensure that local justice received their support.
******************************************
Aragorn and Legolas went now with Éomer in the van.
-Helm’s Deep, Chapter 7, Book III, The Two Towers
(Thanks to Brethil for image.)
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Eruonen
Half-elven
Mar 23 2017, 4:02pm
Post #13 of 22
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I get the impression from what Aragorn said to Boromir at The Council of Elrond
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that the Hobbits would have no clue who or what they were:
"Travellers scowl at us, and countrymen give us scornful names. "Strider" I am to one fat man who lives within a days march of foes that would freeze his heart, or lay his little town to ruin (Buttebur and Bree)......If simple folk are free from care and fear, simple they will be, and we must be secret to keep them so...."
(This post was edited by Eruonen on Mar 23 2017, 4:03pm)
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Darkstone
Immortal
Mar 23 2017, 4:28pm
Post #14 of 22
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...typical anti-cop behavior.
I suppose rangers handing out speeding tickets on the Great East Road would be a sore point. Especially if you're just walking fast.
******************************************
Aragorn and Legolas went now with Éomer in the van.
-Helm’s Deep, Chapter 7, Book III, The Two Towers
(Thanks to Brethil for image.)
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Eruonen
Half-elven
Mar 23 2017, 4:35pm
Post #15 of 22
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There is a whole unwritten history of Dunedain activities and actions in the North
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that we know nothing about but can only speculate upon based on cryptic comments such as Aragorn's. I am going to guess and say there were less than 1,000....maybe only 500....Dunedain to cover all of the north....rather like Canadian Mounties.
"Prime Minister Sir John A. Macdonald first began planning a permanent force to patrol the North-West Territories after the Dominion of Canada purchased the territory from the Hudson's Bay Company. Reports from Army officers surveying the territory led to the recommendation that a mounted force of between 100 to 150 mounted riflemen could maintain law and order. " Wiki
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Darkstone
Immortal
Mar 23 2017, 4:40pm
Post #16 of 22
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Nelson Eddy and Jeanette MacDonald as Aragorn and Arwen...
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...singing "Dunedain Love Call".
Hey, I'd pay good money to watch that!
******************************************
Aragorn and Legolas went now with Éomer in the van.
-Helm’s Deep, Chapter 7, Book III, The Two Towers
(Thanks to Brethil for image.)
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Eruonen
Half-elven
Mar 23 2017, 4:54pm
Post #17 of 22
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Aragorn would have to clean up, brush his teeth, I doubt he has that tooth sparkle.
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Darkstone
Immortal
Mar 23 2017, 5:13pm
Post #18 of 22
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Still smiling! Thanks! Made my day!
******************************************
Aragorn and Legolas went now with Éomer in the van.
-Helm’s Deep, Chapter 7, Book III, The Two Towers
(Thanks to Brethil for image.)
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Mar 23 2017, 9:37pm
Post #19 of 22
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Kinda like County Sheriff Deputies and State Troopers.
It might be assumed the bounders worked with the rangers on occasion.
Except in this case all of the State Troopers are working under cover and very few of the local deputies knew about them. I doubt that even the Mayor of Michel Delving (First Shirriff) knew the truth about the wandering Dúnedain, though the Master of Buckland and/or the Thain (who represented the authority of the King) might have known more.
Thanks for the link! I've speculated along similar lines about the Rangers of the North, most recently at the Cubicle 7 forums for The One Ring Role Playing Game (or maybe it was the ones for Adventures in Middle-earth).
"He who lies artistically, treads closer to the truth than ever he knows." -- Favorite proverb of the wizard Ningauble of the Seven Eyes
(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Mar 23 2017, 9:44pm)
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Mar 23 2017, 9:52pm
Post #20 of 22
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...I was thinking of that very passage.
"He who lies artistically, treads closer to the truth than ever he knows." -- Favorite proverb of the wizard Ningauble of the Seven Eyes
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Mar 24 2017, 2:08pm
Post #21 of 22
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The Barrow-downs, the Old Forest and the Withywindle
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Lord of the Huorns! Willow Lord with his army of Barrow Wights.
I wonder if the Old Forest might have been a much more wholesome place before the Wights infested and blighted the Barrow-downs. The Withywindle originates in the downs and might spread their blight to the trees of the Old Forest that are watered by the stream. I believe that the Barrow-downs were at the edge of Tom's country but not really a part of it. He could still draw power from his own lands, but he might not have been comfortable remaining in the Barrow-downs for long.
"He who lies artistically, treads closer to the truth than ever he knows." -- Favorite proverb of the wizard Ningauble of the Seven Eyes
(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Mar 24 2017, 2:11pm)
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Eruonen
Half-elven
Mar 24 2017, 2:20pm
Post #22 of 22
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He seems to have set his own borders and the Barrow Downs
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though probably just outside them would probably be just too much work with all of the wights to expel so he essentially let it be. Plus, they are more barren, grass covered hills. of less interest to him.
It does make me wonder what Tom and Goldberry were up to during the years Arthedain's kings were ruling his area. After all, the Old Forest is not large and his residence would not have been difficult to find by anyone coming down the Withywindle. It makes you wonder if they could "disappear" / cast illusion.
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